Cherry vs Costar? Mushy vs Rattly?

[Vozella]

Are Cherry stabilizers actually mushy?
Are Costar stablizers actually rattly?
Can people who are new to keyboards feel the difference?

I'm reading https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/wiki/keycap_guides
(Ctrl+F Stabilizers vary between keyboards.)

Quote: "Cherry stabilizers are basically just switches minus the spring. Advantage is swapping keys is easier since there are no key stabilizer inserts and wires to fool with. Some people however think they give a "mushy" feeling.

Costar stabilizers are have a wire bar and the keys have white stabilizer inserts/pegs. They are a bit fiddly to remove and some people find them "rattly", although lube helps with this (see the Maintenance Wiki)."

I can understand what mushy means, but what do they mean by rattly? Does it make noise? Is it shaky?

[Jersern]

Cherry stabs can be very mushy. I was building my Phantom and I discovered this issue after soldering the whole thing so I pulled it apart and clipped the stabilisers and it feels much better. So yes mushy but is a lot better if you take some time and clip them.

Costar ones are kinda rattly. It makes a hollow rattling sound when the key is pressed. Definitely very different in sound to the Cherry stabs. I can upload a sound comparison later if you want. They are kinda fiddly to get the keycaps on and off but not that difficult once you get the hang of it.

[neverused]

One thing to note too is that costar stabilizers may not work well with thick keycaps.

[apolotary]

I pulled a PCB-mounted stabiliser yesterday and since then it rattled like crazy. Never had this problem with Costar. Go figure.

[samhwang]

One thing to note too is that costar stabilizers may not work well with thick keycaps.

I've heard my friend said this as well. Can you enlighten me a bit on that ?

[Melvang]

One thing to note too is that costar stabilizers may not work well with thick keycaps.

I've heard my friend said this as well. Can you enlighten me a bit on that ?

The plastic bit that clips into the plate on costar has an interference with thick caps suck as Leopold.  I have experienced this.  To my knowledge Cherry stabs do not have this issue.

I can confirm that someone new to mech keyboards can feel the difference.  My wife, tried the Ducky I bought for my aunt before I wrapped it.  When she hit the space bar for the first time, she recoiled like a spider just walked across her hand.  It was rather amusing.

On the bottom of Cherry stabs there is a small tab.  If you cut that off with flush cutters or fingernail clippers, it kills the mushy feeling completely. 

[zombimuncha]

I think when the Cherry stabs feel mushy it's due to a slight misalignment between the stabs, and keycap. On my FC660M I never noticed any mushiness with the stock caps, but when I put GMK-TA on it suddenly felt very mushy. I found that the mushy feeling went away after a couple of days, and a few iterations of mashing the affected keys nice and hard, to make sure the cap is seated all the way down on the stab-stems.

A little lube on Costar or Alps stabs makes the clanky rattly sound go away, and makes them feel better too.

[Defect]

Use silicone grease on both, and clip the cherry stabs.

No rattle no mush.

[KHAANNN]

Costar

• Since the wire is flat, the stabiliser is always unbalanced, which causes a clink sound no matter what you do, lube doesn't cut it
• Bending the wire slightly fixes the above issue
• You have to sand/drill the bottom of the keycaps to make room for the wire, irreversible damage to the keycaps https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=73871.msg1826481#msg1826481
• In wire-bended form, much better than Cherry's, yet the cost is pretty high, it's also very hard to get right
• All parts are easily replaceable
• Bonus: MX Blue/Green's + Costars go extremely well, since clicky switches also have absurd clicky responses, it suppresses the clank of the Costar's, too bad I can't use clicky switches for 5 minutes without getting a micro headache

Cherry (clipped)

• Hard to find decent parts, especially spacebar wires seem hard to find
• There is an extra plastic sound from the insert hitting the plastic enclosure, it's unclear whether this can be prevented
• Plays along well with most keycaps at various thicknesses
• Hard to replace, I've heard people mention the assembly degrading and new sounds being introduced to the mix
• 3x harder to remove keycaps, since 3 inserts hold the keycaps in place instead of 1 (costar)

Honestly, I want to go with plate or PCB-mount Cherry's for my next build, but I can't make up my mind
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=72076.0 with this method I achieved the perfect stabiliser, yet after a month of usage, probably after an insert plastic degradation, my Backspace balance degraded and I can feel a small unbalance that might start causing a sound

Comparatively, any Cherry setup I tested have 3-4X more sound initially, + some rubbing sound from the movement, comparatively Costar sound is pure

I guess, I'm going with Costar's again, yet the need to periodically re-service stabilisers is probably a cold-truth, at least with Costar's, it's very doable without any de-soldering etc.

Interestingly, only my Backspace needs servicing after a month, after countless, violent, Agar.io spaces, my spacebar still provides a pure keypress experience (pure == no different than any other keycap, which is almost impossible to achieve, yet possible with Costar's)

[Hypersphere]

My own bias is that I do find Cherry stabs mushy, but I do not necessarily find Costar-type stabs rattly. For example, in my WASD V2 87 and CM QFS boards as well as in my KBP V60MTS board, the wire stabs are not rattly. It is harder to change keycaps on stabilized keys with wire stabs, but for me, it is worth the trouble to have stable, even, and non-mushy stabilized keys.

[samhwang]

For example, in my WASD V2 87 and CM QFS boards as well as in my KBP V60MTS board, the wire stabs are not rattly.

I don't really know about the CM QF line and also Matias boards, but I'm pretty sure the WASD v2 has the wire-bended stabilizers and that fixed the rattling issue. I know this, because I have a CODE keyboard from WASD.

[KHAANNN]

For example, in my WASD V2 87 and CM QFS boards as well as in my KBP V60MTS board, the wire stabs are not rattly.

I don't really know about the CM QF line and also Matias boards, but I'm pretty sure the WASD v2 has the wire-bended stabilizers and that fixed the rattling issue. I know this, because I have a CODE keyboard from WASD.

the middle-bend?

I think it contributes to the rattle instead, cherry profile keycaps hit that middle part good, I assume it's there to prevent the wire touching the switch, I wonder whether it causes an issue with led's, haven't tried any led instalments myself

(by the way, rattle == the click sound when you gently touch the keycap without activating the switch, it's the sound the wire makes when it touches the keycap from the side, or the sound the wire and insert makes, when they engage to stabilise)

[samhwang]

the middle-bend?

I think it contributes to the rattle instead, cherry profile keycaps hit that middle part good, I assume it's there to prevent the wire touching the switch, I wonder whether it causes an issue with led's, haven't tried any led instalments myself

I'm not really sure about "contributes to the rattle part", since I just recently asked a friend who has a CM QFR with MX Blacks that the rattle doesn't occur to him, so I think that might be the "Costar bend" ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Will tell him to try some thick cherry profile keys on it, so far GMK TA is doing fine.

[Oobly]

There are also different quality versions of each type out there. I actually find Ducky and KBT Cherry type stabilisers to be better than the stabs from a Cherry G80-3000. The G80 stabs are a little looser and actually rattle a bit.

I'm sure the same goes for Costar stabs, such as from Filco vs iOne.

In any case, I prefer Cherry stabilisers. They're less hassle when changing caps and are generally less rattly. The wire on Costar stabs can rub the inside of thick keycaps, they require mods to mount the inserts to SP-produced keycaps, they are more sensitive to slight switch misalignment, etc. Cherry stabiliser wires live under the plate / below the keycap, so there's no chance of interference. Makes for a cleaner, more solid looking board, IMHO. Also feels more solid to me without the clunk / rattle, but that could just be "feeling" with my ears

Newer Cherry stabilisers have little tabs to soften the bottom-out strike, so this is usually what causes the "mushiness" people talk about. If you clip the tabs off, the mushiness is gone, but on some boards it may require desoldering the switch in between or even the whole plate if it doesn't have cutouts.

[KHAANNN]

I got to test an IMSTO Cherry PCB Mount stab today, I have to say the insert is light-years ahead of other inserts, it doesn't have the feet, it also seems to have a wire guide designed in, I suspect it's a custom design of someone, yet it's highly under-advertised, I bought it months ago thinking I was buying some generic stuff

Out of the box, unlubed, the assembly is extremely stiff, it cancelled out the tactility of the switch, however, after lubing it like a switch, it turned out to be usable and the tactility of the switch returned, in a reduced level (lubing the stabiliser assembly, not the switch, switch is already lubed)

Compared to an optimised Costar, it's still rattly, so I'm going to stick to Costar's with an ease of mind, yet I have to say, it would be extremely practical to just put on some PCB mounts stabs, PCB mount switches and get things rolling, it would take me 80% there, yet I'm after the 99%

I also think PCB mount stabs are >> plate mount stabs, mainly as the hole is more closed, it does a great job at stabilising, the only issue is the sound and stiffness, lubing and breaking in takes care of the stiffness, if you can live with the rattling, it would work

Once again, these are all linear, tactile issues, clicky switches roll with most kind of stabs, as long as the stiffness doesn't prevent the click, the rattling just blends in with the click of the switch itself

(Listening to clicky switches gives me a small headache, testing the Cherry stab produced the same result, just adding to my little analysis)

[asgeirtj]

Costar is non mushy stock.  Cherry is mushy stock.  HOWEVER, when clipped, cherry is non mushy.  As you need cherry stabs to fit cherry profile thick caps then cherry > costar.  Lubing the stabs also makes them better.

[Oobly]

@KHAANNN: Interesting. Those may actually be made by KBC / AIKB. If it's that stiff it's most likely that the wire is a bit too long, but since I don't have one of those exact stabs I can't tell if it's that or the sliders.

I tend to use Cherry PCB mount stabs and my favourites so far have been the ones that came on my KBT Pure. One reason I prefer them is you clip and lube them when installing and then just enjoy a trouble-free and easy experience, without the fiddly bits or problems with specific caps. No pieces of tape, no bending wires, no rubbing caps / sticking switches.

I suppose with both types the wire can be "tweaked" to reduce rattle, but in stock form I find Costar to be more rattly. This is a generality, though, so YMMV.

[KHAANNN]

@KHAANNN: Interesting. Those may actually be made by KBC / AIKB. If it's that stiff it's most likely that the wire is a bit too long, but since I don't have one of those exact stabs I can't tell if it's that or the sliders.

I tend to use Cherry PCB mount stabs and my favourites so far have been the ones that came on my KBT Pure. One reason I prefer them is you clip and lube them when installing and then just enjoy a trouble-free and easy experience, without the fiddly bits or problems with specific caps. No pieces of tape, no bending wires, no rubbing caps / sticking switches.

I suppose with both types the wire can be "tweaked" to reduce rattle, but in stock form I find Costar to be more rattly. This is a generality, though, so YMMV.

I agree, it would be great if someone tested all the Cherry stabs available, I really wonder how pok3r ones compare for example

Out of curiosity, do you achieve a setup with cherry stabs that don't differ from regular non-stabilised switches?

My best application still rattles at keyup, while the initial press is not that bad, but it's so far away from a regular switch that I wonder what I'm doing wrong

I'm dying to test an optimal Cherry stabiliser setup to compare it with my Costar, compared to a 1.75 switch for example, a calibrated Costar'd switch is much better, so not only it preserves the keypress experience but it reduces the rattle too, of course this is a calibrated one, a direct application always has the added click from one side of the keycap

[dante]

I'm surprised OEM's haven't made clipped Cherry stabs the gold standard as you get the best of both worlds.

Costars piss me off as you need to sex them up with lube to get rid of the annoying tick-tick-tick noise when lightly taping the space bar.

[KHAANNN]

I'm surprised OEM's haven't made clipped Cherry stabs the gold standard as you get the best of both worlds.

Costars piss me off as you need to sex them up with lube to get rid of the annoying tick-tick-tick noise when lightly taping the space bar.

Lubing works only for 5 minutes by the way, the only solution I could come up with is to bend the wire-ends to make them touch both ends of the insert, this way there is no room for the cause of the tick-tick noise that's indeed extremely annoying

[SpAmRaY]

I'm surprised OEM's haven't made clipped Cherry stabs the gold standard as you get the best of both worlds.

Costars piss me off as you need to sex them up with lube to get rid of the annoying tick-tick-tick noise when lightly taping the space bar.

Lubing works only for 5 minutes by the way, the only solution I could come up with is to bend the wire-ends to make them touch both ends of the insert, this way there is no room for the cause of the tick-tick noise that's indeed extremely annoying

I'm not sure why you would say lubing doesn't work any longer than 5 minutes, if that is the case you are doing it wrong.

[KHAANNN]

I'm surprised OEM's haven't made clipped Cherry stabs the gold standard as you get the best of both worlds.

Costars piss me off as you need to sex them up with lube to get rid of the annoying tick-tick-tick noise when lightly taping the space bar.

Lubing works only for 5 minutes by the way, the only solution I could come up with is to bend the wire-ends to make them touch both ends of the insert, this way there is no room for the cause of the tick-tick noise that's indeed extremely annoying

I'm not sure why you would say lubing doesn't work any longer than 5 minutes, if that is the case you are doing it wrong.

My switches are at 100g and I generally bottom out hard, no matter how much lube I put there, the costar-gap-rattle still causes the tick-tick sound

You are claiming you can prevent plastic to metal hitting sound with lube, unless that lube is thick beyond imagination, I'm saying that it doesn't work, I was initially using the WASD's super lube, I've later on tried GPL205/207, no luck

Also the wire constantly slides over the plastic, so the lube gets pushed out fast

IMO, the only solution is to eliminate the gap, that's only possible by bending the wire and just putting a little bit of pressure on the assembly (making the wire ends touch the inserts just a little bit on both top and bottom)

In my experiments, I don't even use any lube to get exact results, this produces the best results, I add the lube later on to prevent wear

Edit: Let me also drop a small piece of info that I just gathered, 2x3x4mm leds touch the costar wire, I'm guessing rounded leds should be risky too, yet it's probably possible to drill the switch a bit and push the led inside the switch