das keyboard s first impressions

[alpslover]

one word:

fail.


a couple of the switches did not feel or sound right, they weren't 'crisp'.  and the space bar was jamming and sticking to the point where i didn't want to use the keyboard any more.  i'm sure these were issues unique to my particular keyboard, but...

there are still issues with the keyboard's controller/firmware.

the keyboard's scan rate seems fine, but i didn't really do any rigorous testing.  i didn't get a chance to (and really, didn't feel i needed to), because when i hit '4567' at the same time, i get this:

56
45
76
457
4


hitting 'rtyu' gives:

tru
try
rt
     <-  total key blocking
     <-  total key blocking


'fghj' gives:

gfj
     <-  total key blocking
gfj
ghj
j


'vbnm':

bnv
bnmv
bnv
b
v


notice these key combinations are along the same vertical 'block' on the keyboard.  it didn't make a difference if i used the usb or ps/2 interface, n-key rollover on this keyboard is broken.  '90-=' and 'op[]' also do not register correctly.  the filco 104 registers all key combinations perfectly.

while i was mashing bunches of keys, on a few occasions i was able to get the das s to repeat 'f' by itself even though no keys were depressed.  repeatedly hitting the 'f' key (i was thinking stuck switch) didn't fix it.  it was only after i hit some other keys that the repeating stopped.  but then the 'f' key no longer worked.  it wasn't my pc, because i had my filco connected at the same time and 'f' registered fine.  i had to unplug and replug the das (it was connected via usb) to get the 'f' key to start registering again.

also, i'm not convinced the das s has laser etched keys.  the lettering feels like the lettering on the filco.


the filco is the better keyboard.  it works exactly the way it's supposed to.  there is simply no reason to buy the das over the filco unless you absolutely have to have a keyboard with a glossy finish and a usb hub.

[elbowglue]

Wow.

Thanks alpslover.

Das Boat is kaput.

[lowpoly]

a couple of the switches did not feel or sound right, they weren't 'crisp'.

I had a similar (or the same) issue with some switches on a new Cherry G80-3000. In my case the problem went away quickly.

[itlnstln]

Scratch that one off the list.

[keyb_gr]

It seems to behave like a regular 2KRO board with an M-style matrix - so much for the advertising. (*) Judging by the fairly random patterns obtained, scanning appears to be fast enough indeed, so at least that is fixed. Now it works about as well as most any other half-decent keyboard - big achievement.

I did see "ghost key" phenomena on some boards - like the Chicony 5312 - when a lot of keys were pressed (some random extra keypresses appeared), but can't really remember any stubbornly stuck ones.

*) It be noted that the Model M was also considered "NKRO" back in the day. I doubt that counts though.

[alpslover]

It seems to behave like a regular 2KRO board with an M-style matrix - so much for the advertising.

the das s appears to be 3 key rollover - every combination of 3 keys i've tried so far has registered correctly.

3 is quite a bit away from n, though.

in the middle of testing i managed to get the 'f' key to die, without having it autorepeat first.  i had to unplug the keyboard and plug it back in to resurrect it.

[bigpook]

giving them the benefit of a doubt, is it possible that you just have a bad unit?

[alpslover]

giving them the benefit of a doubt, is it possible that you just have a bad unit?

sure, anything's possible.  we'll see when others receive their keyboards.

[bigpook]

I just don't get how a company can ship a 'premium' keyboard that fails so badly as the das.

[wellington1869]

Now it works about as well as most any other half-decent keyboard  

ya it sounds like scan rate was fixed; the keys are laser etched with paint fill (which is prolly why it feels like the filco lettering, but isnt really, its better). Its true the blue cherry 104 filco has a decent controller where n-key goes (unlike the filco zero). However if they've brought the Das up to a ibm M matrix level, thats a decent board for non gamers at this point.

stuck or non-crisp blue cherry switches are a concern, maybe a quality control issue, its just coming off the assembly line after all. The m10 still occasionally has some of those 'key inconsistency' issues with the blue cherry switch (someone recently mentioned that with a new m10 on gh), tho the previous das didnt have those issues AFAIK. So I'm hopeful those will get cleared up on the new Das too.  Then again you can always return or exchange it.

Alpslover, have you opened it up for circuit board pics yet?

I'm looking forward to trying out the review unit that metadot is sending me.

[wellington1869]

I just don't get how a company can ship a 'premium' keyboard that fails so badly as the das.

i've asked that about a lot of premium keyboards out there. But if the das is up to the level of a 'normal' keyboard now, I have to give metadot credit for doing the major fixes.

[hacfed]

Looks like I might be saving for the HHKB instead. Thanks alpslover.

[keyb_gr]

the das s appears to be 3 key rollover - every combination of 3 keys i've tried so far has registered correctly.

= Properly implemented 2KRO controller + switches with diodes. NKRO is prevented by ghosting treatment being enabled (e.g. all 4 in a 2x2 matrix segment registered = fault condition).

Much like the G80-10xxHAD that I'm typing on right now.

in the middle of testing i managed to get the 'f' key to die, without having it autorepeat first.  i had to unplug the keyboard and plug it back in to resurrect it.

That screams bad soldering or controller bug.

[alpslover]

= Properly implemented 2KRO controller + switches with diodes. NKRO is prevented by ghosting treatment being enabled (e.g. all 4 in a 2x2 matrix segment registered = fault condition).

it doesn't seem to make much sense to have diodes on all the switches and then not use an n-key rollover controller.  and then they go and advertise it as having n-key rollover?

[alpslover]

This 3-key rollover thing is weird.  I would have thought that would be the first thing they would test and I don't  remember any problems with my old Das handling at least 6-key under USB even with mashing.

yes, i don't recall the original das 3 having any problems either.  so it appears that with the das s, they fixed the scan rate issue but broke rollover.

at least the das s shouldn't have any problems with its usb hub (it worked fine for me), but then again, it shouldn't because it requires the second usb connector to be plugged in for the hub to work.  i'd be surprised if the hub circuitry and keyboard circuitry weren't completely electrically separate.

[Rajagra]

I hope it's a duff unit rather than design flaw(s). We need at least one more test to form a fair opinion.

But so far the score is Lex "Webwit" Luthor 2; Metadot 0.

[ch_123]

I agree. I'd be willing to give it a chance if it did something that a Filco or Cherry G80 couldn't do... other than turn into a smudgy piece of crap.

[keyb_gr]

it doesn't seem to make much sense to have diodes on all the switches and then not use an n-key rollover controller.

Well, NKRO keyboard controllers don't exactly grow on trees (see "homebrew" controllers). With the old one out for the time being, maybe they had to source a replacement quickly. Finding a decent "normal" (2KRO) controller certainly is much easier.

IMO: It's a quick'n'dirty hotfix while the NKRO controller is out for rework.

[Rajagra]

Why are people saying Metadot must be given the benefit of the doubt
...
I don't see how a unit can fail in this way. If something broke, I doubt it failes to a status which by pure accident is identical to a bad design.

There could be a crack in the PCB that causes failure when many buttons are pressed. Or there could be a problem with the computer it was tested on (unlikely, but *possible*.) It's perfectly reasonable to want confirmation of these problems. If they are normal for the new model, then they have made it significantly worse than the previous version, which would be quite remarkable given the feedback/criticism they've received before - a definite New Coke style mess.

Well, NKRO keyboard controllers don't exactly grow on trees

But NKRO controllers are simpler. They simply need to omit the code that blocks ghost keys.

[keyb_gr]

But NKRO controllers are simpler. They simply need to omit the code that blocks ghost keys.

Of course. Availability of off-the-shelf parts may be quite another story though, given that 2KRO boards are far more commonly produced. Manufacturing of fancy mechanical keyboards is a relatively small-scale business these days, so in general you can't throw R&D at a problem the way someone like Logitech would.

[alpslover]

Of course. Availability of off-the-shelf parts may be quite another story though, given that 2KRO boards are far more commonly produced. Manufacturing of fancy mechanical keyboards is a relatively small-scale business these days, so in general you can't throw R&D at a problem the way someone like Logitech would.

maybe there was a slip-up somewhere and early production runs of the das s got the wrong controllers.  or this is just a repeat of the abs m1 fiasco.

[alpslover]

There could be a crack in the PCB that causes failure when many buttons are pressed.

when i tested 'rtyu' and saw that it failed, i tried 'erty' and 'tyui' (i shifted over a single key to the left and right), which both registered correctly.  this same behavior was observed with '3456', 'fghj', 'vbnm', '90-=', and 'op[]'.

Or there could be a problem with the computer it was tested on (unlikely, but *possible*.)

i had my filco connected at the same time i was testing the das, and it registered all of the keys correctly.


of course, i'd still like to see what happens with other das s's.  maybe i got a buggy early production unit.

[Rajagra]

If they removed the diodes as a cost saving measure, and introduced Ghosting problems as a result that needed to be compensated for in firmware Christopher Walken is gonna be one pissed dude.

Nah, he's too happy he got rid of that watch to be pissed.

[Rajagra]

LOL - Raj - ya gotta give me your Photoshop secrets someday.

Secret No. 1: Plagiarism.

(I can do animated GIFs, but cutting down their size is something I haven't learned yet.)

Strange thing is I use GIMP mostly, as that's what's on this PC. Photoshop is on my bigger PC that I don't use as much.

[wellington1869]

yes, i don't recall the original das 3 having any problems either.  so it appears that with the das s, they fixed the scan rate issue but broke rollover.

Thats what it sounds like.  For people like me (i'm a typer, not a gamer) that makes the board good enough to use (My daily driver endurapro isnt much better at n-key, but handles my typing just fine).

Though of course I'd rather have seen them fix/keep both features rather than fix one and break the other.  Or its just early production woes. We'll find out soon enough I guess.

[alpslover]

Thats what it sounds like.  For people like me (i'm a typer, not a gamer) that makes the board good enough to use (My daily driver endurapro isnt much better at n-key, but handles my typing just fine).

it might be good enough to use, but personally i don't think it's good enough to spend $130 on.

[iMav]

it might be good enough to use, but personally i don't think it's good enough to spend $130 on.

Have you contacted metadot and/or opened up a support ticket?

[iMav]

I know their system could use some improvement...but I think it is a good idea to make sure at least an attempt is made to make them aware of the problem.

[alpslover]

Have you contacted metadot and/or opened up a support ticket?

i will.  they require that to be done to get an rma.

[microsoft windows]

I bet the company that makes the Das keyboards doesn't spend nearly $130 on the keyboards they make. That's too bad.

[itlnstln]

I bet the company that makes the Das keyboards doesn't spend nearly $130 on the keyboards they make. That's too bad.

Costar (the Das OEM) quoted member Soulhunter $50 a 'board for NKRO Filco clones for an order of 100 units.  The Das version might be a little more, but it's probably in the same ballpark.

[alpslover]

Of course. Availability of off-the-shelf parts may be quite another story though, given that 2KRO boards are far more commonly produced. Manufacturing of fancy mechanical keyboards is a relatively small-scale business these days, so in general you can't throw R&D at a problem the way someone like Logitech would.

that's no excuse, though, because the product is advertised to have that feature and you're paying a premium for that feature, amongst others.  the higher cost (if it is higher) of ramping up production of that normally less common nkro controller is figured into the cost of the keyboard.

it's like buying a $200k car that the manufacturer claims can do over 200mph, but it has h rated tires fitted to it because y rated tires are produced in small quantities so they couldn't get their hands on any so they just used whatever they had available.  come on now...

[itlnstln]

that's no excuse, though, because the product is advertised to have that feature and you're paying a premium for that feature, amongst others. the higher cost (if it is higher) of ramping up production of that normally less common nkro controller is figured into the cost of the keyboard.

This, and Costar already did it right with the Filcos.  I don't see why they can't get the Das right, too.

[Rajagra]

I bet their marketing people don't know what NKRO means. Other than it sells.

[alpslover]

metadot support got back to me and said that they discovered similar issues in the first batch of das s's.  they offered to send a replacement s once they fix the problem, or they could send me a das 3 if i needed a keyboard right away.

[maxlugar]

metadot support got back to me and said that they discovered similar issues in the first batch of das s's.  they offered to send a replacement s once they fix the problem, or they could send me a das 3 if i needed a keyboard right away.

I see a trend here with metadot and the das.  While it's really great to have the satisfaction money back guarantee (I know I took advantage of theri generous policy) at some point I would get fed up with having to continually send back a nearly $200 keyboard for a replacment or fix.

Maybe that's why EliteKeyboard's return policy is not quite as generous as metadots...their Filco and Topre keyboards are better built and generally have fewer problems so they don't need to be as accommodating.

[wellington1869]

Maybe that's why EliteKeyboard's return policy is not quite as generous as metadots...their Filco and Topre keyboards are better built and generally have fewer problems so they don't need to be as accommodating.

you mean like controllers with transposition issues and matte key coverings that come off? xD

And if they're that great its all the more reason that a generous return policy SHOULD be offered - it wouldnt cost them anything if their boards are that great. So i'd say what you said as an argument FOR a generous return policy, if anything.

In this day and age elitekeyboards stands nearly alone in not offering returns, actually. The only other major place where you can buy keyboards without return is basically used keyboards on ebay sold 'as is'. (And at least there you'll pay half the price).

But I guess like everything else in this business everyonone must make these decisions about "value"  for themselves. Personally I think its beyond absurd not to offer returns; it also commits you to a strategy of 'denial' of problems when they do appear.

it might be good enough to use, but personally i don't think it's good enough to spend $130 on.

I'm with mwindows on this point -- I wouldnt spend $130 on any keyboard today.  Its not worth it.  If i'm going to go with hit-or-miss fancy boards then I may as well buy them used for half the price.

In the das case tho I'm glad they're aware of it, presumably they're working on it then; tho all they have to do is remove the NKRO label until they fix it.

If I wanted a shiny board with laser etched keys and usb built in that can handle my typing -- the das would indeed work for that.  Thats more than I can say for a lot of boards out there in the same price range.

But to be clear the $25 TVS Gold suited me fine as a blue cherry board. So does the $60 scorpius M10. Laser etched keys to boot. My spacebar didnt click and they sent me a replacement board in 2 days; and I always had the option of returning it. All that for $60. Value and service is out there if you care to insist on it.  If I can get that for $60 I'd be nuts not to expect it at $130.

[itlnstln]

The other, albeit subtle, difference is that Elitekeyboards is more of a distributor where Metadot creates, owns, and retails their product. Elite can be a little more selective in what he sells, so he can provide more proven products (that the original companies have to stand behind via warranty, thus relieving him of some responsibility) where Metadot is taking a bigger chance with a custom product that they have to fully stand behind from construction to retail.