Why are Cherry MX switches a lot scratchier than clones?

[lisq199]

I recently got a switch tester with Cherry and Gateron switches, and I found that Gateron red, black and brown are a lot smoother than their Cherry MX counterparts.
Is this normal? Are Cherry clones really better than the original?

[iLLucionist]

There was a whole discussion on this recently somewhere here, but can't find the link. Basically it is really expensive to get the tooling to make switches so the argument goes that cherry is in the business so long now but didn't not revise their tooling, because they are/were the main player and it is expensive to get tooling.

I hope Zealios will be on par. They a supposed to be really smooth compared to Cherry.

[jacobolus]

Cherry MX switches were great okay in the mid-1980s. Somewhere along the line, they went to ****. It’s not entirely clear whether their tooling wore out, their plastic composition or production process changed, or something else. Anyway, if you want good MX switches, look for donor keyboards with an XT or AT layout, or maybe for a UNIX terminal or broken 386 "portable". Try to find one which was stored in a box if you can. (Or just skip MX switches altogether.)

[iLLucionist]

Cherry MX switches were great in the mid-1980s. Somewhere along the line, they went to ****. It’s not entirely clear whether their tooling wore out, their plastic composition or production process changed, or something else. Anyway, if you want good MX switches, look for donor keyboards with an XT or AT layout, or maybe for a broken 386 "portable". Try to find one which was stored in a box if you can.

This. I'm betting on Zealios for my next build but first I need to learn how to solder and get my hand on purples (clears from Zealios if I get it correctly).

[Polymer]

Cherry MX switches were great okay in the mid-1980s. Somewhere along the line, they went to ****. It’s not entirely clear whether their tooling wore out, their plastic composition or production process changed, or something else. Anyway, if you want good MX switches, look for donor keyboards with an XT or AT layout, or maybe for a UNIX terminal or broken 386 "portable". Try to find one which was stored in a box if you can. (Or just skip MX switches altogether.)

I don't know if they were any better then...or if it is just that they're more worn.

There is a noticeable difference with switches that are used a lot and those that are not..what convinced me is the keyboards I have where QWER are vintage smooth where the others are less so..and that is because those boards were for gaming....Makes sense though....

[jacobolus]

I don't know if they were any better then...or if it is just that they're more worn.

Whatever you personally know or don’t know, and despite what some on this forum will tell you, there’s really no question that the older switches were smoother. If you get a completely new, never used keyboard from ~1985 with MX switches, it will be dramatically smoother than a new, never used keyboard from 2015.

It’s possible you could make the new ones nicer by pressing them a few 100,000s of times. I have no opinion on that.

[bocahgundul]

Its because cherry mx is a tight tolerances switches compared to gateron which is not a tight tolerances switches that's why the switches are smoother than cherry

[jcoffin1981]

I love Cherry MX browns, but I have a slight preference towards Gateron Browns.  It may be because it takes less pressure to overcome the point of greatest resistance during the keystroke.  And yes, the Gaterons seem a little less scratchy.

[Leslieann]

Others have commented on other switches, but if you want good Cherry blues, the easiest to find source is the original Razer Black Window and Ultimate boards. For all the things wrong with those early boards, Razer did put effort into the switches.

[klennkellon]

Others have commented on other switches, but if you want good Cherry blues, the easiest to find source is the original Razer Black Window and Ultimate boards. For all the things wrong with those early boards, Razer did put effort into the switches.

I can confirm this, the MX Blues from my G1 blackwidow are the smoothest and most consistent clicky switch I have ever tried. Not one switch feels different from the other.

[Mattr567]

Others have commented on other switches, but if you want good Cherry blues, the easiest to find source is the original Razer Black Window and Ultimate boards. For all the things wrong with those early boards, Razer did put effort into the switches.

I can confirm this, the MX Blues from my G1 blackwidow are the smoothest and most consistent clicky switch I have ever tried. Not one switch feels different from the other.

Worn Cherry MX is basically as good if not better than Gateron. I bought worn in MX Blues out of a Ducky Shine 2, and put them in my 16 year old G80-11800, which also had worn in MX Browns. Since I didn't de-soldered the MX Browns the bottoms of the worn (not sure if you could call them vintage) MX Browns and the newer worn in MX Blue stems and springs together make the switches extremely smooth. Love this board now. I had to put in a couple of new switches since I was short and they are much quieter and not nearly as clicky as the worn in MX Blue stems, even with the worn in contacts.

BTW I put them all in the insert/home area of my G80 so I never use them, so my board feels uniform.

[jerue]

The reason isn't really clear, but I'd bet it's a combination of not being worn in, and the possible change of materials sometime in the 1990's (explained below). I really don't like any modern MX switch that hasn't been modified, maybe MX greens if I had to pick one. Vintage switches are much nicer because they would be more worn in but are made slightly differently, and I think around 1995 or so Cherry changed the materials used to make switches, but I think most switches pre-2000 or so would be fine (this could also mean tooling is degrading).


As far as out of the box experience goes, I prefer Gateron, particularly the blacks and red switches, compared to vintage blacks they are more consistent across the board (I have had some even smoother than Gaterons and some that weren't).

I found that after spending some time lubing and spring swapping some vintage MX blacks, I preferred them over Gaterons; they were softer and not as harsh throughout the keystroke.


Gateron Reds make me sad...they are what I thought MX Reds would be. But alas, MX reds are just not that good stock .

[Shaussman]

Worn Cherry MX is basically as good if not better than Gateron.

I'm curious if Gaterons will wear that way though. My MX Browns are noticeably smoother then my Gaterons, although the Gaterons have a more noticeable/prominent tactile bump and are a bit heavier. My Quickfire only has ~2.5 years of use, too, so not super long. Enough, I guess.

[Mattr567]

Worn Cherry MX is basically as good if not better than Gateron.

I'm curious if Gaterons will wear that way though. My MX Browns are noticeably smoother then my Gaterons, although the Gaterons have a more noticeable/prominent tactile bump and are a bit heavier. My Quickfire only has ~2.5 years of use, too, so not super long. Enough, I guess.

I guess so. Wonder if the Vintage MX Black thing is a load of bull**** and worn in 'new' blacks feel the same. What I do know is that Brand new MX Blacks are extremely scratchy.

[nuzey]

To me the gaterons are not as good as cherry switches. Reason is stated in this thread. It is very smooth thus making them feel hollow and a tad too light. Btw this is for red switches as I am a great fan of it for gaming.

On the other hand the cherry switches scratchiness is not that bad. You cannot really feel it when you are typing or gaming. It gives a good overall feeling compared to the gaterons. I am pretty sure a lot of people think the same way as me. Just my opinion though 

[chyros]

I think it's just because Cherry didn't and doesn't mind compromising on quality. It's partially what kept them in business when the others retreated out of the market or died off. Only now, their competition is clones of their own switches and the genuine product is the worst out of all of them. Yet if they improve now, they're almost admitting they've been bunging out donkey **** for the last two decades.

[iLLucionist]

Were old cherry browns also scratchy like the new ones?

[bocahgundul]

Were old cherry browns also scratchy like the new ones?

IIRC no

[iLLucionist]

Were old cherry browns also scratchy like the new ones?

IIRC no

That would suggest to me that there tooling really must suck nowadays. I would've liked browns more only if they weren't so scratchy. My clears feel a lot smoother, also a bit scratchy, but smoother.

You would think that Cherry could invest in tooling more. Enough Cherry boards are sold these days.

[bocahgundul]

Were old cherry browns also scratchy like the new ones?

IIRC no

That would suggest to me that there tooling really must suck nowadays. I would've liked browns more only if they weren't so scratchy. My clears feel a lot smoother, also a bit scratchy, but smoother.

You would think that Cherry could invest in tooling more. Enough Cherry boards are sold these days.

I think cherry will not give a fk about the feel of their switches

but if those gamers company needs a switch made out of led I think cherry would invest for switches made out of led 

[trillobite]

Cherry MX switches were great okay in the mid-1980s. Somewhere along the line, they went to ****. It’s not entirely clear whether their tooling wore out, their plastic composition or production process changed, or something else. Anyway, if you want good MX switches, look for donor keyboards with an XT or AT layout, or maybe for a UNIX terminal or broken 386 "portable". Try to find one which was stored in a box if you can. (Or just skip MX switches altogether.)

My best guess would be the plastic composition. In the automotive world, materials at friction points will be "surfaced" (basically wire brushed), and this allows the parts to "break-in" and mate better with each other. I would like to find out the tolerances of the parts in gatreon vs. cherry, new and after 10k clicks. Has anyone asked if Cherry puts a "surface" on their parts?

[Polymer]

I don't know if they were any better then...or if it is just that they're more worn.

Whatever you personally know or don’t know, and despite what some on this forum will tell you, there’s really no question that the older switches were smoother. If you get a completely new, never used keyboard from ~1985 with MX switches, it will be dramatically smoother than a new, never used keyboard from 2015.

It’s possible you could make the new ones nicer by pressing them a few 100,000s of times. I have no opinion on that.

No data to back that up...Since so few never used 1985 keyboards actually exist...
Unfortunately for me, I've tried them new from back around then but I don't remember it being all that different..but given that in my head those Atari games look awesome, that doesn't say a whole lot...

[iLLucionist]

I don't know if they were any better then...or if it is just that they're more worn.

Whatever you personally know or don’t know, and despite what some on this forum will tell you, there’s really no question that the older switches were smoother. If you get a completely new, never used keyboard from ~1985 with MX switches, it will be dramatically smoother than a new, never used keyboard from 2015.

It’s possible you could make the new ones nicer by pressing them a few 100,000s of times. I have no opinion on that.

No data to back that up...Since so few never used 1985 keyboards actually exist...
Unfortunately for me, I've tried them new from back around then but I don't remember it being all that different..but given that in my head those Atari games look awesome, that doesn't say a whole lot...

I can remember using brand new Cherry OEM keyboards from around 2000. They felt much better then my 2013 Filco Brown. But that's extremely subjective, of course.

[Mattr567]

I think it's just because Cherry didn't and doesn't mind compromising on quality. It's partially what kept them in business when the others retreated out of the market or died off. Only now, their competition is clones of their own switches and the genuine product is the worst out of all of them. Yet if they improve now, they're almost admitting they've been bunging out donkey **** for the last two decades.

Yea, they have lost their way a bit. Now only older worn in switches are any good, like in my G80. Personally the last 5-6 years is where the drop has really been.

Were old cherry browns also scratchy like the new ones?

IIRC no

That would suggest to me that there tooling really must suck nowadays. I would've liked browns more only if they weren't so scratchy. My clears feel a lot smoother, also a bit scratchy, but smoother.

You would think that Cherry could invest in tooling more. Enough Cherry boards are sold these days.

I think cherry will not give a fk about the feel of their switches

but if those gamers company needs a switch made out of led I think cherry would invest for switches made out of led 

Pretty much, comprising quality for RGB.

[Shaussman]

Yea, they have lost their way a bit. Now only older worn in switches are any good, like in my G80.

I'm curious, what's the generally accepted time to wear in switches? Initial break in time is a couple of days, but when are they truly "worn"?

[Vittra]

Anywhere from "months" to "years", depending on who you ask.

[trillobite]

Yea, they have lost their way a bit. Now only older worn in switches are any good, like in my G80.

I'm curious, what's the generally accepted time to wear in switches? Initial break in time is a couple of days, but when are they truly "worn"?

That is something to think about. Mechanical keyboards last quite a long time, so if the break-in period is relatively short... then it's really no big deal.