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Author Topic: IBM Model M & F Keys -- the same?  (Read 3302 times)

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Offline msiegel

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IBM Model M & F Keys -- the same?
« on: Tue, 29 September 2009, 00:30:39 »
Would one-piece Model M keys (stems etc) fit a Model F?

I'm thinking about using Model M keys to fill in missing spots on a Model F :)
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Offline JBert

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IBM Model M & F Keys -- the same?
« Reply #1 on: Tue, 29 September 2009, 04:00:45 »
I thought they were slightly different. I haven't got a model M at hand, so I can't compare.

At any rate, you could try it if you are very careful.
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Offline ch_123

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IBM Model M & F Keys -- the same?
« Reply #2 on: Tue, 29 September 2009, 04:34:26 »
They are interchangable, although I think the Model M's ones are a bit bigger.
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Offline timw4mail

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IBM Model M & F Keys -- the same?
« Reply #3 on: Tue, 29 September 2009, 06:18:13 »
The stem is the same, at any rate.
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Offline Mercen_505

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IBM Model M & F Keys -- the same?
« Reply #4 on: Tue, 29 September 2009, 06:30:07 »
The stem is the same, but IIRC the keys have a slightly different height, or something to that effect. Or I may be thinking of M2 versus M keys. It's early, and I'm not a morning person!
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Offline maxlugar

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IBM Model M & F Keys -- the same?
« Reply #5 on: Tue, 29 September 2009, 13:24:09 »
Quote from: JBert;121362
I haven't got a model M at hand, so I can't compare.



I'm shocked :shocked:   I thought all geekhacks owned at least one Model M
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Offline itlnstln

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IBM Model M & F Keys -- the same?
« Reply #6 on: Tue, 29 September 2009, 13:33:03 »
Quote from: maxlugar;121468
I'm shocked :shocked: I thought all geekhacks owned at least one Model M

He didn't say he didn't have one, he just didn't have one handy. He might be at work, or something.
 
EDIT: looking at his signature, he has a Model F and another terminal keyboard.
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Offline maxlugar

  • Posts: 379
IBM Model M & F Keys -- the same?
« Reply #7 on: Tue, 29 September 2009, 14:07:01 »
Quote from: itlnstln;121470
He didn't say he didn't have one, he just didn't have one handy. He might be at work, or something.
 
EDIT: looking at his signature, he has a Model F and another terminal keyboard.


Well as long as he's got at least one real keyboard...     :)
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Offline JBert

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IBM Model M & F Keys -- the same?
« Reply #8 on: Tue, 29 September 2009, 14:08:19 »
Quote from: maxlugar;121468
I'm shocked :shocked:   I thought all geekhacks owned at least one Model M
Heh, I must be an exception then.

Seeing how I got the model F XT before any other keyboard, a model M with possible broken rivets and a heavier touch doesn't really appeal to me (Now if it had thumb keys, a lighter touch and a symmetrical layout, I'd buy one in a heartbeat).

Anyway, should the keys be compatible I'd might buy a UK model M to swap some dirty key caps on my 'F with a clean specimen.
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Offline maxlugar

  • Posts: 379
IBM Model M & F Keys -- the same?
« Reply #9 on: Tue, 29 September 2009, 14:13:42 »
Quote from: JBert;121479
Heh, I must be an exception then.

Seeing how I got the model F XT before any other keyboard, a model M with possible broken rivets and a heavier touch doesn't really appeal to me (Now if it had thumb keys, a lighter touch and a symmetrical layout, I'd buy one in a heartbeat).

Anyway, should the keys be compatible I'd might buy a UK model M to swap some dirty key caps on my 'F with a clean specimen.


I with ya

I'm going to lunch now (it's noon on the left coast) but when I get back I'll check the keycaps on the Model M, 83-key Model F, and 84-key PC AT to see if they're compatible - I just happen to have one of each here at the office   :)
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Offline msiegel

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IBM Model M & F Keys -- the same?
« Reply #10 on: Tue, 29 September 2009, 17:38:45 »
cool... if they're compatible, then there's hope for creating a "Happy F-ing Keyboard". small like a Happy Hacking, but made of Model F switches and a few Model M keys :)
« Last Edit: Sat, 14 November 2009, 23:07:47 by msiegel »
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Offline timw4mail

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IBM Model M & F Keys -- the same?
« Reply #11 on: Tue, 29 September 2009, 17:55:35 »
Quote from: msiegel;121544
cool... if they're they're compatible, then there's hope for creating a "Happy F-ing Keyboard". small like a Happy Hacking, but made of Model F switches and a few Model M keys :)

Wow...I don't even know what to say about that one...
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Offline msiegel

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IBM Model M & F Keys -- the same?
« Reply #12 on: Tue, 29 September 2009, 17:57:53 »
Quote from: timw4mail;121549
Wow...I don't even know what to say about that one...


on the model f pcb, capacitive pads are in nearly all the right places :D :D
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Offline maxlugar

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IBM Model M & F Keys -- the same?
« Reply #13 on: Tue, 29 September 2009, 19:20:17 »
Quote from: maxlugar;121480
I with ya

I'm going to lunch now (it's noon on the left coast) but when I get back I'll check the keycaps on the Model M, 83-key Model F, and 84-key PC AT to see if they're compatible - I just happen to have one of each here at the office   :)


This little experiment was more interesting than expected.

First, the one piece Model F keys (tops and stems) are swappable with two piece Model M keys.  JBert or ch_123 or someone noted that the two piece Model M keys are slightly thicker than the Model F keys, but there didn't seem to be any problem with clearance.

The printing on the Model F keys (both the 83-key and 84-key) is definitely darker (bolder & thicker) than the printing on the 1989 while label Model M I used for comparison.

The most interesting thing I discovered was the noticeable change in the the clickiness of the key pressess.  Swapping the 83-key Model F keys with Model M keys slightly dulls the sharpness of the clicks, but also appears to also slightly reduce the force required to buckle the spring.

I have not officially measured the force with the ripometer but side-by-side, the key presses on the swapped keys feel lighter than the native keys.
   
Hopefully someone else can replicate my experience because an 84-key PC AT keyboard with lighter key presses would be even more outstanding than it already is.
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Offline msiegel

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IBM Model M & F Keys -- the same?
« Reply #14 on: Tue, 29 September 2009, 19:24:43 »
Quote from: maxlugar;121564
This little experiment was more interesting than expected.

Hopefully someone else can replicate my experience because an 84-key PC AT keyboard with lighter key presses would be even more outstanding than it already is.


excellent! well done max :D
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Offline maxlugar

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IBM Model M & F Keys -- the same?
« Reply #15 on: Tue, 29 September 2009, 19:43:53 »
Deleting duplicate post.
« Last Edit: Tue, 29 September 2009, 19:52:21 by maxlugar »
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Offline msiegel

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IBM Model M & F Keys -- the same?
« Reply #16 on: Sat, 12 December 2009, 23:20:26 »
Quote from: ch_123;121365
They are interchangable, although I think the Model M's ones are a bit bigger.


i just noticed this myself, comparing keys from two different sets  -- it feels like two-piece keys are a good portion of a mm taller than one-piece keys. a small but discernible difference.

can anyone verify this with measurements?
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Offline msiegel

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IBM Model M & F Keys -- the same?
« Reply #17 on: Sun, 13 December 2009, 00:50:21 »
wow, thanks ripster... i hadn't even noticed the cutout!
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Offline ch_123

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IBM Model M & F Keys -- the same?
« Reply #18 on: Sun, 13 December 2009, 05:12:27 »
Quote from: maxlugar;121564

The most interesting thing I discovered was the noticeable change in the the clickiness of the key pressess.  Swapping the 83-key Model F keys with Model M keys slightly dulls the sharpness of the clicks, but also appears to also slightly reduce the force required to buckle the spring.

I have not officially measured the force with the ripometer but side-by-side, the key presses on the swapped keys feel lighter than the native keys.
   
Hopefully someone else can replicate my experience because an 84-key PC AT keyboard with lighter key presses would be even more outstanding than it already is.


I noticed this too, but it didn't feel 'right'... I went back to the usual keys.
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