Modernized Buckling Spring Kickstarter

[Arcanius]

Hey everybody! I've taken your advice regarding my buckling spring design, and have modified the buckling spring prototype I have to be as compatible with Cherry MX as possible! It now mounts onto Cherry plates and PCBs, even though the spacing is different between the two. It won't be a drop-in replacement, but it'll work with either one, and allow people to modify their existing Plancks and Ergodoxes and custom keyboards to fit these buckling springs!
I want to put this switch into production, so I've launched a Kickstarter in hopes of covering the tooling cost, which I can't pay for since I'm just a student. If any of you like the idea and wish to support, I'd appreciate the help. If you have them, ask me any questions here, on the KS itself, or wherever else you might find me!

[Anole]

This looks great! Have you tried contacting Zealios? They might be able to help you manufacture these .

[FrostyToast]

If you want to reach that funding goal in a reasonable time you need to advertise what you are doing.
Post on all media outlets possible (LTT, Reddit, etc), and contact media press themselves; I'm sure the media will be dying to get their story on a modernized buckling spring switch.

[nubbinator]

Still going to put this out since no changes were made despite a lot of concern voiced by multiple people last time.  Having the spring be part of the actuating mechanism is problematic and that design element should be revisited.

[Arcanius]

Having the spring be part of the actuating mechanism is problematic.

That was an initial concern of mine as well. I've picked the materials for the spring and contact plate so that they experience as little wear as possible, and thickened the plate as well. In the thousands of times I've clicked the prototypes I have, I haven't seen any noticeable wear develop. Of course, this isn't millions of actuations, but I have no real way of testing this besides playing with the thing daily. Even a soft aluminum plate barely saw wear. The contact force between the plate and spring is low, and there isn't a lot of sliding up and down of the spring on the plate.

[FrostyToast]

My main concern is that the switches are quite expensive coming in at 3-4x the cost of regular switches.
Even though these are definitely special switches, it's hard to justify purchase without a confirmed measurement of lifespan.

[Arcanius]

My main concern is that the switches are quite expensive coming in at 3-4x the cost of regular switches.
Even though these are definitely special switches, it's hard to justify purchase without a confirmed measurement of lifespan.

They will not be very cheap, this is true. Nowhere near Kailh or Matias prices, at least. I am still working to lower the prices. The Kickstarter is not reflective of the final pricing of the switches. If they do enter production, I will sell them for around 95c US each, at least to begin with. The price will likely decrease after that.

[FoxWolf1]

Wait a sec...how exactly does the switch relate to the plate? Does it just go through the hole without clipping in, or does it clip in somehow? I don't see any feet like on a PCB mount MX switch for stability (and stress reduction for the solder joints along with it), and your switch looks to be significantly taller.

[0100010]

Unicomp 103 USB is not 'modernized'?

[FrostyToast]

Wait a sec...how exactly does the switch relate to the plate? Does it just go through the hole without clipping in, or does it clip in somehow? I don't see any feet like on a PCB mount MX switch for stability (and stress reduction for the solder joints along with it), and your switch looks to be significantly taller.

The top section of the switch resembles an MX housing allowing it to clip in to the plate. You can see the tabs in the renders.
PCB mounting pins would be nice to offer stability of course. With such a tall switch you would need as much stability as possible.
Also, it was already addressed in the campaign that the spacing between the PCB and plate would have to be increased.

Unicomp 103 USB is not 'modernized'?

He wants to modernize the buckling spring design to appeal to the current climate of the keyboard enthusiast community.
That would include the production of individual independent switches that can be placed in custom keyboards and MX stems allowing for a variety of keycap options.
The Unicomp 103 USB isn't even a comparable "modernization" of the buckling spring.

My main concern is that the switches are quite expensive coming in at 3-4x the cost of regular switches.
Even though these are definitely special switches, it's hard to justify purchase without a confirmed measurement of lifespan.

They will not be very cheap, this is true. Nowhere near Kailh or Matias prices, at least. I am still working to lower the prices. The Kickstarter is not reflective of the final pricing of the switches. If they do enter production, I will sell them for around 95c US each, at least to begin with. The price will likely decrease after that.

If the switches become cheaper to produce afterwards, then where is the incentive for kickstarter backers? I know it's difficult for a student to make investments, however, this is backwards logic when it comes to kickstarting projects.

[Arcanius]

I couldn't have explained it better myself!

If the switches become cheaper to produce afterwards, then where is the incentive for kickstarter backers? I know it's difficult for a student to make investments, however, this is backwards logic when it comes to kickstarting projects.

The incentive for Kickstarter backers isn't all that high for the individual. They'll receive green switches which will be limited production (maybe they'll be worth something extra eventually, maybe not), but other than that, not too much direct incentive. However, Kickstarter is first and foremost a crowdfunding platform, not a store. Without Kickstarter supporters, no switches will go into production at all. I cannot offer Kickstarter supporters switches below cost, because then I'd still be the one to have to front money for tooling. If I could start production alone, I'd have just opened a Massdrop.

[FrostyToast]

I couldn't have explained it better myself!

If the switches become cheaper to produce afterwards, then where is the incentive for kickstarter backers? I know it's difficult for a student to make investments, however, this is backwards logic when it comes to kickstarting projects.

The incentive for Kickstarter backers isn't all that high for the individual. They'll receive green switches which will be limited production (maybe they'll be worth something extra eventually, maybe not), but other than that, not too much direct incentive. However, Kickstarter is first and foremost a crowdfunding platform, not a store. Without Kickstarter supporters, no switches will go into production at all. I cannot offer Kickstarter supporters switches below cost, because then I'd still be the one to have to front money for tooling. If I could start production alone, I'd have just opened a Massdrop.

I have already considered this point of view, however, Kickstarter targets consumers, not investors; therefore it is expected that they act as such.
Right now you're in between a rock and a hard place. While Kickstarter would allow you complete control and ownership of your design, it's difficult to make a reality with this predicament.
With an investor (such as Massdrop even) you will likely lose plenty of control and potentially surrender some ownership.
Right now your largest concern is marketing. It's quite odd that you launched your Kickstarter without a solid marketing campaign. I haven't been that active lately, but I haven't seen the discussion for this particular project being very active.
Now you have to gather as much publicity as possible within the small time constraint of the Kickstarter campaign to ensure this is a success.

[chuckdee]

I couldn't have explained it better myself!

If the switches become cheaper to produce afterwards, then where is the incentive for kickstarter backers? I know it's difficult for a student to make investments, however, this is backwards logic when it comes to kickstarting projects.

The incentive for Kickstarter backers isn't all that high for the individual. They'll receive green switches which will be limited production (maybe they'll be worth something extra eventually, maybe not), but other than that, not too much direct incentive. However, Kickstarter is first and foremost a crowdfunding platform, not a store. Without Kickstarter supporters, no switches will go into production at all. I cannot offer Kickstarter supporters switches below cost, because then I'd still be the one to have to front money for tooling. If I could start production alone, I'd have just opened a Massdrop.

I have already considered this point of view, however, Kickstarter targets consumers, not investors; therefore it is expected that they act as such.
Right now you're in between a rock and a hard place. While Kickstarter would allow you complete control and ownership of your design, it's difficult to make a reality with this predicament.
With an investor (such as Massdrop even) you will likely lose plenty of control and potentially surrender some ownership.
Right now your largest concern is marketing. It's quite odd that you launched your Kickstarter without a solid marketing campaign. I haven't been that active lately, but I haven't seen the discussion for this particular project being very active.
Now you have to gather as much publicity as possible within the small time constraint of the Kickstarter campaign to ensure this is a success.

Actually, I think that he's more spot on with the intent, and you're more spot on with the reality.  I think the reason that is, is because of the ways that project creators have bastardized the system in order to get funding and more backers.  What you're supposed to be getting is the ability to help a project come to fruition, and the ability to get things that aren't available, and help them later come to the masses.  It is always more, or at best equally expensive to produce the first run of something.  Most of the money is taken up in the initial investment, and you get the money by developing it and producing it in bulk on the back end.  However, in the interest of getting funding, creators blur this distinction, and in many cases, doom their project down the line because they do so.  Stretch goals, and other bonii have killed more than one project after the fact.

Be realistic.  This might make you not succeed this time, but then you continue to refine.  And it saves you, and your backers a lot of stress.  I say this as a compulsive serial backer that likes to see people and projects succeed, and backs in many cases because of this.  Way too many cases, if I'm honest.

[KRKS]

All the objections of technical and/or financial matter aside, why would I buy this when I can get actual full buckling spring keyboards, even in 60%.

Oh wait I forgot people here are way too fixated on MUH 6.25 MX STEM OR DIE.

[FrostyToast]

All the objections of technical and/or financial matter aside, why would I buy this when I can get actual full buckling spring keyboards, even in 60%.

Oh wait I forgot people here are way too fixated on MUH 6.25 MX STEM OR DIE.

Even the Kickstarter campaign, in one of its rewards, tries to emphasize the capability of using unique layouts, such as the planck, along with buckling spring switches.
For ergonomic reasons and pure preference, there are many who almost require unique custom keyboards to suit their needs. Those needs are often not met by the current offerings.
Additionally, it allows people to have freedom when it comes to case design. Even though there are limitations with the spacing required between the PCB and plate, there is still some room for offering unique cases.
There are plenty of reasons why one would desire something other than a stock keyboard. Look anywhere on GH and you will find few people who are willing to use full stock keyboards.

[lkong]

I couldn't have explained it better myself!

If the switches become cheaper to produce afterwards, then where is the incentive for kickstarter backers? I know it's difficult for a student to make investments, however, this is backwards logic when it comes to kickstarting projects.

The incentive for Kickstarter backers isn't all that high for the individual. They'll receive green switches which will be limited production (maybe they'll be worth something extra eventually, maybe not), but other than that, not too much direct incentive. However, Kickstarter is first and foremost a crowdfunding platform, not a store. Without Kickstarter supporters, no switches will go into production at all. I cannot offer Kickstarter supporters switches below cost, because then I'd still be the one to have to front money for tooling. If I could start production alone, I'd have just opened a Massdrop.

It's going to be really hard to swallow for KS backers that they put down the seed money but got the worst deal.
I suggest you find a way to compensate the backer better.

[Zekromtor]

Made a pledge. I hope you get funded, I'd like to give it a shot.

[Melvang]

Having the spring be part of the actuating mechanism is problematic.

That was an initial concern of mine as well. I've picked the materials for the spring and contact plate so that they experience as little wear as possible, and thickened the plate as well. In the thousands of times I've clicked the prototypes I have, I haven't seen any noticeable wear develop. Of course, this isn't millions of actuations, but I have no real way of testing this besides playing with the thing daily. Even a soft aluminum plate barely saw wear. The contact force between the plate and spring is low, and there isn't a lot of sliding up and down of the spring on the plate.

On the the technical side of things, what material are you planning on using for the place and the contacts?  The reason I ask is because wear with an energized circuit and a non energized circuit are going to be much different.

One other question, is the spring part of the circuit for the matrix?  IBM tried using the spring in a very early iteration of the buckling spring design.  This design aspect was scrapped very quickly did to excessive wear.  Now whether this was a metalurgy issue coupled with electrical contact constantly being opened and closed,  or just physical wear against the side of the switch body, I don't know for sure.   But I would still avoid that design aspect at all costs.

Don't get me wrong,  I really want this to make it and be a thing, just concerned about design aspects?

[Zekromtor]

The springs don't need to last forever. If they last as long as the tires on my car, I'm fine with that, as it will be a lot cheaper to replace them. Bunch of wet blankets, doing their best to keep someone from trying something that has the potential to fail. Rather than "avoid it at any cost" how about "try it for a reasonable cost with the best metal your shady Chinese manufacturer can get you" and let's do this thing!

[Hak Foo]

For testing, it would not be hard to rig up, say, a CD drive opening and closing repeatedly to press a switch unattended.

[sinusoid]

[...] Of course, this isn't millions of actuations, but I have no real way of testing this besides playing with the thing daily.

Get a drill. Lock it in place. Design and 3d print or machine a drill bit with a cam on end. Position the switch adequately.

Drill rotates, cam presses and releases switch. Simple.

Most drills come up with a speed dial. Use it to set rpms. Leave this setup wired to something that can register keypresses, and go find a nice movie or two. Come back, see when the switch died.

Drills can spin up to 20K RPMs, so I think the switch here is the speed limiting point...

Good luck!

[Melvang]

[...] Of course, this isn't millions of actuations, but I have no real way of testing this besides playing with the thing daily.

Get a drill. Lock it in place. Design and 3d print or machine a drill bit with a cam on end. Position the switch adequately.

Drill rotates, cam presses and releases switch. Simple.

Most drills come up with a speed dial. Use it to set rpms. Leave this setup wired to something that can register keypresses, and go find a nice movie or two. Come back, see when the switch died.

Drills can spin up to 20K RPMs, so I think the switch here is the speed limiting point...

Good luck!

I have never seen a hand held drill with a speed dial.  Pretty much all hand held drills are either on or off, or variable speed based on trigger pull.  Now stand up drill presses are different.  The method of speed control is usually a function of price.  Cheaper ones are one belt between different sized pulleys.  Next up is two belts between 3 sets of pulleys, with the most expensive ones being dial.  Though the vast majority of dial controlled are very expensive.

[sinusoid]

I have never seen a hand held drill with a speed dial.  Pretty much all hand held drills are either on or off, or variable speed based on trigger pull.  [...]

https://www.google.com/search?q=drill+speed+dial&tbm=isch

Guess it's either an EU thing, or I subconsciously censor out the ones without the dial when purchasing.
Even all the cheap ones seem to have a dial round here (though it has a tendency to die, taking the drill with it. Nothing a soldering iron can't cure, though...).
They have variable speed on trigger pull as well.

You don't need precise RPMs, since you're mainly interested in counting switch presses, and you can calculate RPMs from that on the fly.

Anyway, if you can't get a handheld drill with a speed dial, get a power inverter with variable output, that gives a bit of control over the RPMs, and you can use it with a wide range of powertools.

[E TwentyNine]

I have never seen a hand held drill with a speed dial.  Pretty much all hand held drills are either on or off, or variable speed based on trigger pull.  [...]

https://www.google.com/search?q=drill+speed+dial&tbm=isch

Guess it's either an EU thing, or I subconsciously censor out the ones without the dial when purchasing.
Even all the cheap ones seem to have a dial round here (though it has a tendency to die, taking the drill with it. Nothing a soldering iron can't cure, though...).
They have variable speed on trigger pull as well.

They exist in the US. I have one, bought ages ago, with a small dial on the trigger itself.  Nothing fancy.