GMK so expensive

[Erzegovaz]

Hi guys, Im just curious, today I was wondering...why GMK ABS double shot are so expensive?
150-180-200$ for a keycaps set.
ok, they are more thick than other and more perfect and work with ABS isnt ez...but with 150$ I can take a great set of PBT dyesub or doubleshot...and they are endless, not like ABS.

Cheers

[Baddy126]

What do you mean by they are "endless"?

[ideus]

Most new and good quality key sets are already above one hundred dollars, ranging from $110 and up, so GMK sets are not really more expensive than other similar options, they are pretty much the same than most sets of the same quality, depending what do you consider a good quality key set; of course, cheap thin PBT double shots do not count, in my humble opinion.

[-musubi]

What do you mean by they are "endless"?

Probably more in terms of longevity (shine, wear and tear) of PBT vs ABS.

I think they are mainly expensive just because people are willing to pay premiums for these sets haha, but yeah I've noticed they have been steadily climbing...

[ideus]

What do you mean by they are "endless"?

Probably more in terms of longevity (shine, wear and tear) of PBT vs ABS.

I think they are mainly expensive just because people are willing to pay premiums for these sets haha, but yeah I've noticed they have been steadily climbing...

There objective difference of GMK sets against other key sets, but that discussion is pretty much worn off already, plenty of words have been written about it, for the interested parties they are welcome to read the extensive information about key caps manufacturing and legends methods.

[Erzegovaz]

What do you mean by they are "endless"?

Probably more in terms of longevity (shine, wear and tear) of PBT vs ABS.

I think they are mainly expensive just because people are willing to pay premiums for these sets haha, but yeah I've noticed they have been steadily climbing...

There objective difference of GMK sets against other key sets, but that discussion is pretty much worn off already, plenty of words have been written about it, for the interested parties they are welcome to read the extensive information about key caps manufacturing and legends methods.

Can u please tell me the objective difference? Or link something old...I`m noob, so I need information. I`m not concerning about the price, it`s just for information

Ducky doubleshot keyset for example for me it`s good and also the PBT...and the price is 1/3. I have some GMK PBT dyesub on my keyboard, an ESC doubleshot and they are really really good, better than old from Leopold fc660m.

[ideus]

What do you mean by they are "endless"?

Probably more in terms of longevity (shine, wear and tear) of PBT vs ABS.

I think they are mainly expensive just because people are willing to pay premiums for these sets haha, but yeah I've noticed they have been steadily climbing...

There objective difference of GMK sets against other key sets, but that discussion is pretty much worn off already, plenty of words have been written about it, for the interested parties they are welcome to read the extensive information about key caps manufacturing and legends methods.

Can u please tell me the objective difference? Or link something old...I`m noob, so I need information. I`m not concerning about the price, it`s just for information

Ducky doubleshot keyset for example for me it`s good and also the PBT...and the price is 1/3. I have some GMK PBT dyesub on my keyboard, an ESC doubleshot and they are really really good, better than old from Leopold fc660m.

GMK only manufactures ABS double shot key sets, I have never heard of GMK PBT dyesubs, maybe, you are referring to OG Cherry dye subs or BSP dye subs that are as expensive or in some cases even expensier than ABS doubleshots made by GMK. It appears to me that we are talking about different things. A good source to start with is the DT'wiki, or the many threads at the key caps subforum at GH.

[pixelpusher]

My opinion to be taken with at least 2 grains of salt:

The extra price for GMK is mostly for the looks.  I will admit that the double-shot technique is pretty great from GMK, with very sharp legends that will never wear off.  However, I cannot say I notice any difference in quality between my GMK set and my enjoy PBT dyesub set, other than the fact that the dyesub legends are not as sharp.  Also,  I firmly believe my ducky thick PBT dyesub set matches the gmk in quality for 1/2 the price.

Structurally, GMK has no great advantage over a quality PBT cap.

TLDR: If you want a quality set of keycaps, thick Ducky PBT or enjoy PBT or maybe even Vortex are solid choices.  If you want a designer/premium looking set of caps, GMK is where it's at.

[-musubi]

My opinion to be taken with at least 2 grains of salt:

The extra price for GMK is mostly for the looks.  I will admit that the double-shot technique is pretty great from GMK, with very sharp legends that will never wear off.  However, I cannot say I notice any difference in quality between my GMK set and my enjoy PBT dyesub set, other than the fact that the dyesub legends are not as sharp.  Also,  I firmly believe my ducky thick PBT dyesub set matches the gmk in quality for 1/2 the price.

Structurally, GMK has no great advantage over a quality PBT cap.

TLDR: If you want a quality set of keycaps, thick Ducky PBT or enjoy PBT or maybe even Vortex are solid choices.  If you want a designer/premium looking set of caps, GMK is where it's at.

I agree, GMK is where you still get many more color choices and variety. But if one is going for a simple, monotone colors then many of the new dye sub keysets seem like a great choice in terms of price and quality.

[nubbinator]

GMK only looks more expensive because more set coverage is built into the base set and retail sets have considerable markup.  SP sets with ISO, number, Tsangan, etc that are built into GMK sets are usually within $10-$15 of a GMK set.

[ideus]

Personal preferences deserve full respect. Mine is that I prefer a good old original Cherry double shot set even over a brand new colorful GMK made one. I use an old OG Cherry beige set along with some modern keys made by GMK to have the old set to fit my preferred layout, it costed me thirty five dollars when I bought it, if you  add what the new keys cost, it ends to be under fifty dollars, I think that I cannot get anything better looking, of better feeling with that money, either PBT or a new GMK set:

[Erzegovaz]

My opinion to be taken with at least 2 grains of salt:

The extra price for GMK is mostly for the looks.  I will admit that the double-shot technique is pretty great from GMK, with very sharp legends that will never wear off.  However, I cannot say I notice any difference in quality between my GMK set and my enjoy PBT dyesub set, other than the fact that the dyesub legends are not as sharp.  Also,  I firmly believe my ducky thick PBT dyesub set matches the gmk in quality for 1/2 the price.

Structurally, GMK has no great advantage over a quality PBT cap.

TLDR: If you want a quality set of keycaps, thick Ducky PBT or enjoy PBT or maybe even Vortex are solid choices.  If you want a designer/premium looking set of caps, GMK is where it's at.

Yes, this is the point for me.
ABS is just ABS, also if the built is perfect...one day it become oily and spoiled (I dont know when precisely), instead PBT dyesub, it will not ruin.

[ideus]

You can be very happy living in your own world: It seems the purpose of the thread is self confirmation for your very own opinion and you got it, congratulations. 

[noisyturtle]

Yes it is dumb since GMK is still in operation and can make any of the sets they have made in the past at any time.

GMK price inflation is 90% hype

[Laurel]

Hi guys, Im just curious, today I was wondering...why GMK ABS double shot are so expensive?
150-180-200$ for a keycaps set.
ok, they are more thick than other and more perfect and work with ABS isnt ez...but with 150$ I can take a great set of PBT dyesub or doubleshot...and they are endless, not like ABS.

Cheers

German labor costs.

[Auxo]

Yes it is dumb since GMK is still in operation and can make any of the sets they have made in the past at any time.

GMK price inflation is 90% hype

Imagine how much money they could potentially make if they had their own online storefront offering all past keysets directly supplied by themselves. All QC would be handled in house and shipped directly to seller too

[duynguyenle]

My opinion to be taken with at least 2 grains of salt:

The extra price for GMK is mostly for the looks.  I will admit that the double-shot technique is pretty great from GMK, with very sharp legends that will never wear off.  However, I cannot say I notice any difference in quality between my GMK set and my enjoy PBT dyesub set, other than the fact that the dyesub legends are not as sharp.  Also,  I firmly believe my ducky thick PBT dyesub set matches the gmk in quality for 1/2 the price.

Structurally, GMK has no great advantage over a quality PBT cap.

TLDR: If you want a quality set of keycaps, thick Ducky PBT or enjoy PBT or maybe even Vortex are solid choices.  If you want a designer/premium looking set of caps, GMK is where it's at.

Yes, this is the point for me.
ABS is just ABS, also if the built is perfect...one day it become oily and spoiled (I dont know when precisely), instead PBT dyesub, it will not ruin.

I actually like typing on well worn Cherry caps, believe it or not. I think worn ABS has got its own character, don't mind them at all

But then again, there's no accounting for taste. For me cherry profile is what I want, and only OG Cherry or GMK sets give me that profile (Gateron PBT sets that are supposedly Cherry profile isn't even close!)

[noisyturtle]

Yes it is dumb since GMK is still in operation and can make any of the sets they have made in the past at any time.

GMK price inflation is 90% hype

Imagine how much money they could potentially make if they had their own online storefront offering all past keysets directly supplied by themselves. All QC would be handled in house and shipped directly to seller too

One might even say GMK would be stupid not to do something like this. I realize the bulk of their machines churn out keys for industrial use, but how hard is it to make a few hundred of each set one month to keep stock and have active smaller sales all year round. GMK apparently doesn't like money.

[rowdy]

Could their stringent quality control have something to do with it?

[Spopepro]

Yes it is dumb since GMK is still in operation and can make any of the sets they have made in the past at any time.

GMK price inflation is 90% hype

Imagine how much money they could potentially make if they had their own online storefront offering all past keysets directly supplied by themselves. All QC would be handled in house and shipped directly to seller too

One might even say GMK would be stupid not to do something like this. I realize the bulk of their machines churn out keys for industrial use, but how hard is it to make a few hundred of each set one month to keep stock and have active smaller sales all year round. GMK apparently doesn't like money.

And this is where you realize that GH is mostly kids. One might even say that it would be stupid to attempt to carry inventory, create and maintain international retail channels, handle individual customer service issues, and hire all of the additional people needed to support direct sales for low value, low margin products with a highly limited market when you're a B2B manufacturer.

[noisyturtle]

Yes it is dumb since GMK is still in operation and can make any of the sets they have made in the past at any time.

GMK price inflation is 90% hype

Imagine how much money they could potentially make if they had their own online storefront offering all past keysets directly supplied by themselves. All QC would be handled in house and shipped directly to seller too

One might even say GMK would be stupid not to do something like this. I realize the bulk of their machines churn out keys for industrial use, but how hard is it to make a few hundred of each set one month to keep stock and have active smaller sales all year round. GMK apparently doesn't like money.

And this is where you realize that GH is mostly kids. One might even say that it would be stupid to attempt to carry inventory, create and maintain international retail channels, handle individual customer service issues, and hire all of the additional people needed to support direct sales for low value, low margin products with a highly limited market when you're a B2B manufacturer.

I just said to carry and stock them in their warehouse, really the only department that would need to ramp up would be shipping.

[JaccoW]

Yes it is dumb since GMK is still in operation and can make any of the sets they have made in the past at any time.

GMK price inflation is 90% hype

Imagine how much money they could potentially make if they had their own online storefront offering all past keysets directly supplied by themselves. All QC would be handled in house and shipped directly to seller too

One might even say GMK would be stupid not to do something like this. I realize the bulk of their machines churn out keys for industrial use, but how hard is it to make a few hundred of each set one month to keep stock and have active smaller sales all year round. GMK apparently doesn't like money.

And this is where you realize that GH is mostly kids. One might even say that it would be stupid to attempt to carry inventory, create and maintain international retail channels, handle individual customer service issues, and hire all of the additional people needed to support direct sales for low value, low margin products with a highly limited market when you're a B2B manufacturer.

From a LEAN production point of view, having stock or inventory is pure waste. The best thing you can do is make stuff when the buyer asks for it and no sooner. The big improvement lies in making the steps between ordering and delivering it to the customer as short as possible.

A few hundred keysets each month becomes a HUGE financial risk very quickly. You lose production capacity, pay for storage while not even knowing if it will sell at all. They could, but they would have to add another layer of profit margins to make it viable.

And since I get the impression that they aren't exactly wanting for orders ( I mean look at the backlog for current GBs) it won't do them any good.

Much better would be investing in production methods that can quickly switch between different colors or shapes so they can run smaller runs sooner.

Keep in mind that this is a German company. And those tend to be much more risk averse than American companies for example.

[potatobot]

I just want to read and see the world burn. 

[ideus]

I just want to read and see the world burn. 

Nero's syndrome sufferer.

[duynguyenle]

Yes it is dumb since GMK is still in operation and can make any of the sets they have made in the past at any time.

GMK price inflation is 90% hype

Imagine how much money they could potentially make if they had their own online storefront offering all past keysets directly supplied by themselves. All QC would be handled in house and shipped directly to seller too

One might even say GMK would be stupid not to do something like this. I realize the bulk of their machines churn out keys for industrial use, but how hard is it to make a few hundred of each set one month to keep stock and have active smaller sales all year round. GMK apparently doesn't like money.

And this is where you realize that GH is mostly kids. One might even say that it would be stupid to attempt to carry inventory, create and maintain international retail channels, handle individual customer service issues, and hire all of the additional people needed to support direct sales for low value, low margin products with a highly limited market when you're a B2B manufacturer.

I just said to carry and stock them in their warehouse, really the only department that would need to ramp up would be shipping.

Anyone with just a rudimentary knowledge of supply chain and logistics management would tell you that this is a huge fallacy. It may seem like a straightforward thing to do, what's a few hundred keysets in a company that makes keycaps by the hundred of thousands right? Unfortunately it's a bit more complicated than that.

Let's just get something out of the way first, the enthusiast keyset market is very small, it's not even a drop in the bucket compared to the order books of these industrial suppliers (GMK is one). While it's easy to lose perspective in a forum like this (really, we're basically just an echochamber of keyboard enthusiasts, it's kinda the point of this forum), it's important to keep in mind that demand for expensive double-shot keyset just isn't that high (and let's not kid ourselves here, GMK caps ARE expensive). Most people don't care enough, they make do with laser-etched OEM ABS caps, and even if someone goes for aftermarket caps, there are a wealth of cheaper options out there. For every wildly successful GB like GMK Carbon, there are droves that struggle to make basic MOQ (if they make it at all, sometimes vendors have to step in to help make a buy happen).

While it's easy to assume that just selling caps is easy money for GMK, it isn't. The business isn't set up for that. The logistical make-up for a retail operation is vastly different from a industrial one, and there are significant hurdles for GMK to pivot their business to cater to the retail model. Economics is certainly one of them (the aforementioned supply-demand), but also legal/regulatory hurdles (the laws and regulations regarding retail operation as well as consumer protection is vastly different compared to business-to-business arrangements, and you don't simply just set up shop, make some keysets, throw it in a store room somewhere and sell them to individual customers if and when. It's just not something that's worth doing for GMK as a business, no matter how we feel here as enthusiasts.

So yes, while I completely understand the sentiment, life really isn't as simple as we all would like it to be 

P/S before anyone jump in to mention Uniqey keyboards, I fully admit, this is probably GMK's tepid forray into the enthusiast keyboard market, they are also priced to match (keyboards *start* at well in excess of 250 euros, any customisation options vastly pull that cost up as well. And their selection of keycap colours are relatively limited, and I do have to say, their industrial design of the keyboards themselves doesn't exactly appeal to me. That said, I think this might be the first step in the direction that benefits this community, and I do hope they are successful enough to step up their selection and offerings. Maybe in 10 years we will all live in keycaps utopia where custom-coloured sets made to order is just a click away one can dream

Sorry for the wall of text, just my tupence

[ideus]

The awareness level on Economics in general seems to be extremely low in forums like this, that explains at some point why many of us pay premium prices, not just for double shot sets but for most of the parts and components of custom mechanical keyboards that worth hundreds of dollars; not to mention, artisan's items. In this bended "reality" community markets may defeat pretty much all common sense.

[duynguyenle]

The awareness level on Economics in general seems to be extremely low in forums like this, that explains at some point why many of us pay premium prices, not just for double shot sets but for most of the parts and components of custom mechanical keyboards that worth hundreds of dollars; not to mention, artisan's items. In this bended "reality" community markets may defeat pretty much all common sense.

Really, that's pretty much what echochambers do. I have certainly fallen down that trap before! Not that I can't respect the huge amount of skill and effort that goes into the production of artisans (and really, many artisans are extremely impressive). That said, I just prefer the ones you can actually use, you know? The ones that I can actually press on it like a normal keycap and not have to worry about breaking it or 'wearing it out'.

But hey, the value of an item is exactly how much it's worth to you, no more, no less. Eye of the beholder and all that! 

[ideus]

The awareness level on Economics in general seems to be extremely low in forums like this, that explains at some point why many of us pay premium prices, not just for double shot sets but for most of the parts and components of custom mechanical keyboards that worth hundreds of dollars; not to mention, artisan's items. In this bended "reality" community markets may defeat pretty much all common sense.

Really, that's pretty much what echochambers do. I have certainly fallen down that trap before! Not that I can't respect the huge amount of skill and effort that goes into the production of artisans (and really, many artisans are extremely impressive). That said, I just prefer the ones you can actually use, you know? The ones that I can actually press on it like a normal keycap and not have to worry about breaking it or 'wearing it out'.

But hey, the value of an item is exactly how much it's worth to you, no more, no less. Eye of the beholder and all that! 

That is exactly the logic of a place like this, in the "real world" our precious custom boards worth pennies for the uninitiated. That is why you can get a nice old Cherry board with OG PBT dyesubs for 1 dollar in a garage sale and resale it here for hundreds of dollars.

[eksuen]

One might even say GMK would be stupid not to do something like this. I realize the bulk of their machines churn out keys for industrial use, but how hard is it to make a few hundred of each set one month to keep stock and have active smaller sales all year round. GMK apparently doesn't like money.

Keycaps take longer to manufacture than you probably think. A few hundred extra sets of even the most popular colorways pales in comparison to the industrial orders they get. GMK does like money, but it's just that the keyboard enthusiast community currently represents very little within the big picture. I really appreciate them for bothering to humor us at all with our snazzy keysets.

Making keycaps at Signature Plastics:

Making screw-on plastic bottle caps:

And this is where you realize that GH is mostly kids. One might even say that it would be stupid to attempt to carry inventory, create and maintain international retail channels, handle individual customer service issues, and hire all of the additional people needed to support direct sales for low value, low margin products with a highly limited market when you're a B2B manufacturer.

I wish more people had an understanding of what a manufacturing environment is like.

[Rayndalf]

I'm pretty sure there is a reason Cherry sold their tooling to GMK. Double-shot cherry profile keycaps have limited industrial applications. Cherry had little use for the dies and sold them to a company that could use them in limited runs. GMK probably uses the cherry dies on machines that normally produce something else more industrially, so running a cherry keyset means not running something else.

[KHAANNN]

GMK is like a Porsche
Enjoy PBT is like a Subaru, engine blows
D/SA are like American Muscle Cars, ...
A decent PBT-set could be like a Nissan GT-R

While I probably couldn't nail the analogy well, you get the idea

GMK is a safe bet if you can afford it, I would prefer a decent PBT-set, PBT feels better, but each PBT set I've checked has issues, some doesn't have extras, some have weird scoop/bump combos, some are dye-subbed by a baboon, some are dye-subbed by a pro (IMSTO) but has an inferior PBT keycaps and no extras or lack even the commonly used keycaps

My ideal keycap would be Vortex/Cherry profile PBT, without the surface imperfections of Vortex PBT's, dye-subbed by IMSTO, with extras for various layouts

Sounds impossible for PBT, but for ABS, GMK has it all

And to address your question, not everything has to be as cheap as the material, probably GMK sets are optimally priced, at least most are, a bit more expensive and most wouldn't be able to buy them, a bit cheaper and the profits would go down, tho, after buying Carbon for $99 at base, I did develop a hatred against too high markups too

(on to ranting)

I wish Uniqey would sell GMK's directly at one point, mainly for the replacement keycap aspect, you pay $150, but there is a high chance you are going to receive keycaps with various scratches on them, I used to buy 2+ of a set to eliminate this probability, but with strong USD and personal finances, can't do that any more. Can't buy them with trays either, since customs wouldn't like a large package

Well, I started this post to defend GMK pricing, but you made me realise I should probably stop buying GMK keycaps

[rowdy]

GMK is like a Porsche
Enjoy PBT is like a Subaru, engine blows
D/SA are like American Muscle Cars, ...
A decent PBT-set could be like a Nissan GT-R

While I probably couldn't nail the analogy well, you get the idea

GMK is a safe bet if you can afford it, I would prefer a decent PBT-set, PBT feels better, but each PBT set I've checked has issues, some doesn't have extras, some have weird scoop/bump combos, some are dye-subbed by a baboon, some are dye-subbed by a pro (IMSTO) but has an inferior PBT keycaps and no extras or lack even the commonly used keycaps

My ideal keycap would be Vortex/Cherry profile PBT, without the surface imperfections of Vortex PBT's, dye-subbed by IMSTO, with extras for various layouts

Sounds impossible for PBT, but for ABS, GMK has it all

And to address your question, not everything has to be as cheap as the material, probably GMK sets are optimally priced, at least most are, a bit more expensive and most wouldn't be able to buy them, a bit cheaper and the profits would go down, tho, after buying Carbon for $99 at base, I did develop a hatred against too high markups too

(on to ranting)

I wish Uniqey would sell GMK's directly at one point, mainly for the replacement keycap aspect, you pay $150, but there is a high chance you are going to receive keycaps with various scratches on them, I used to buy 2+ of a set to eliminate this probability, but with strong USD and personal finances, can't do that any more. Can't buy them with trays either, since customs wouldn't like a large package

Well, I started this post to defend GMK pricing, but you made me realise I should probably stop buying GMK keycaps

I saw two GT-Rs in the city today!  A really clean black one and a dirty white one.