Diffriance between 1390120/1390131 and 1391401

[simon1234]

I seen/typed on tons of 1391401 but i never seen a 1390120/1390131  nor type on it. So whoever did: Can you tell if there is any diffriance between it beside the logo and some stabilazers?

[Mercen_505]

In practice the experience is 99% the same.

[nowsharing]

I was expecting a lot out of my 1390120s, because of the hype, but ended up selling them both. I agree with Ripster, LEDs are a plus on keyboards. I was planning on adding to Ripster's thread (black vs blue vs unicomp) on this matter as soon as I clean my boards up for fair comparison.

[GenEric35]

have a look at the IBM wiki section in this forum, it's a great source of information

I aggree about the leds, usually i check the leds first, and often the first thing i do is toggle one of them(I work with vmware and hyper-v, it emulates/filters keypresses, mouse and other things so it complicates my computer usage a bit) if the lights are on I'm good to go, the lights are very usefull

I can't compare with a 1401 as far as touch goes, but my 131 is definitely lighter touch than my Unicomp customizer, the one 131 is a very heavy frame compared to the Unicomp Customizer .

[ironcoder]

Are you sure?

I feel differences between my 1993s and 1989s, surely there are further differences with the "ancient" ones (-0120)

Unless you bought them both NIB I can't see how you can draw any conclusions.

[GenEric35]

Are you sure?

I feel differences between my 1993s and 1989s, surely there are further differences with the "ancient" ones (-0120)

what you could do is asked the ebay seller that sees alot of them in good condition, i think his seller name is rarekeyboardstore, just write him a question he's quite knowledgeable,

I don't have many model M but i think you regroup them by generations, when keys went from 2 piece to one 1piece, the bluckling spring plate seems to come in different colors, then the backplate, then you have to add wear to all that, and rivets that pop in one place on one keyboard, and popped in another place on the other, and sometimes someone might have to combine two keyboards together, all this could result in quite a few variations

[microsoft windows]

I don't have any of those Model M's but I do have a 1398148. (That's an M5-2)

[GenEric35]

rarekeyboardstore, while knowledgeable, is also the guy who said Fs were made of fibreglass...

Yea, I was a bit upset when i saw the painted model F but it's his keyboard
having played guitar when i was a kid, a vintage guitar was genuine if it had a yellowed pickguard, scratches and alot of normal wear

[GenEric35]

rarekeyboardstore, while knowledgeable, is also the guy who said Fs were made of fibreglass...

Yea, I was a bit 'upset' when i saw the painted model F, oh well, it's his keyboards
but having played guitar when i was a kid, a vintage guitar was genuine if it had a yellowed buttons and pickguard, scratches and alot of normal wear (complete with a 'costume' previously owned by Jimmy Hendrix)

[nowsharing]

Yea, I was a bit 'upset' when i saw the painted model F, having played guitar when i was a kid, a vintage guitar was genuine if it had a yellowed pickguard and scratches and alot of normal wear

You should check out my guitar on craigslist. I got it on ebay and it looks like the previous owner fought wolverine with it, not in a nice way unfortunately.

I must be hyper sensitive to differences in feel though, because there are differences, and I'm just about positive they aren't related to spring wear.

My new take on the situation is that there is a difference between the different model #s/years, but when it comes down to the individual boards that we are acquiring, the differences we are feeling are mostly, if not entirely, related to the use-life of the boards. The '93 blue-label that I'm typing on is a killer board and is fun to use--it doesn't seem to have been used much by its previous owners/users. My '87 mini in Brazil is also nice, but was probably much more used and as a result the feel is not nearly as tight.

I demoed a large variety of Ms (and an F) in the past couple of weeks, and they just vary so much in feel and cleanliness that I gave up trying to sort them based on their production years or model #. The only objective way to test our various theories would be to compare only NIB boards, and even these would have complex environmentally imparted differences due to: the age of their metals, the breakdown of the plastic structures, their storage environment, whether or not their keys were pressed down by packaging...etc. In the end we are talking about individual objects, and about ourselves.

Everything is in a state of chemical decay of such complexity that geekhackers are like ants on the side of a freeway looking at the pebbles in front of them, asking questions about those flashy lights to their side.

[GenEric35]

...The color of the plate is not relevant...

yea, after seeing 41 of them, your oppinion has the weight that goes with this experience. Quick question incase you would know this, did the spring board(i think some people call it the actuator plate) w/e the plastic one, did you notice if it fits accross most models?(some have drains) i might be looking for one in good condition at some point but not sure from which to which year i can find one, if possible that is the same as on my 131, they tend to fold along the thin lines and are fragile

as for the backplate, it doesn't change my typing experience, but just like the mechanic and his gold plated Snap-On drill bits that cheer him up each time he looks at them, so does my 131's backplate

[GenEric35]

You should check out my guitar on craigslist. I got it on ebay and it looks like the previous owner fought wolverine with it, not in a nice way unfortunately.

cool, if only i still played, I played mine for about 10 years, but now haven't used it for just about as long, but still kept it, it's a 1987 reissue of 1957, but i'm suprised at how much they post for on ebay, like there is 1983 (if i'd get that kind of offer i would sell it for sure and take a chunk off my student loan... it's actually the black model, like this new 2009 one

[nowsharing]

so does my 131's backplate

That does look sexy, those rivets aren't stock are they?

it's a 1987 reissue of 1957

That's a sexy guitar too, today is sexy day.

[GenEric35]

That does look sexy, those rivets aren't stock are they?

That's a sexy guitar too, today is sexy day.

lol, indeed... not stock rivets, it's a rivet replacement I did 3 weeks ago, the results were very good, the whole thing took about 12-15 hours since I wanted to do it carefully, for some of them I used nuts and bolts, the ones that don't show nut/bolt I tapped threads

[InSanCen]

lol, indeed... not stock rivets, it's a rivet replacement I did 3 weeks ago, the results were very good, the whole thing took about 12-15 hours since I wanted to do it carefully, for some of them I used nuts and bolts, the ones that don't show nut/bolt I tapped threads

What Tap did you use? I am very interested in doing this... I had mulled it over, and I think it would be a good Idea. Much as the Bolts work, it's just not elegant enough for me, and I have a nice new box of taps sitting here waiting to be christened. My already modded '89 1391406 needs some loving to it's rivets. It's looser than a hooker on piecework.

[GenEric35]

Nuts and bolts not elegant?

Screwing plastic is like paying for sex.  Cheap thrills but will it last?

lol,
I guess only time will tell, I have tapped threads in steel before with some of them stripping, none of the ones tapped in platic has even come close to stripping, the only thing i had to do was sometimes re-tap just before screwing it in because the screw was not hooking as easily as if i screwed in the tap a few turns

nut's and bolts is elegant and has many advantages, like being able to have the bolts already screwed in to act as guides when slidding on the backplate, if stripping threads would have been an issue, then nut and bolts is a nice plan B,

I liked to have both methods available so i didnt have to force anything to align, witht he years and plastic being brittle, the plastic of the actuator board was extremly fragile, it was like manipulating an old parchment threathening to crack at any time, and i had to drill 60 holes in this thing, being able to choose which method i want to use for each rivets made thing easier and safer as far as not forcing that fragile actuator board too much

[GenEric35]

What Tap did you use? I am very interested in doing this... I had mulled it over, and I think it would be a good Idea. Much as the Bolts work, it's just not elegant enough for me, and I have a nice new box of taps sitting here waiting to be christened. My already modded '89 1391406 needs some loving to it's rivets. It's looser than a hooker on piecework.

hehe, yea the rivets replacements also allow you to re-open your board in the future if needed for other mods, for example next time i have to order stuff from the keyboard stores i'll get a set of different springs just to see the difference, and again, I can disassemble it after and put back the original springs or use the new ones on another project.

I used a tap #4-40 and #4-40 screws, the recommended drillbit was #43 but i didnt have one, i think the drill bit was slighly smaller or bigger it was either 5/64 or 3/32, it's think it was 5/64

here is the thread where I logged the progress from the time I got the board to when it was completed.

[tonywalk]

As the owner of a bunch of model Ms (all 1391406s I think) I can verify that there is a different feel amongst the same models.

The two I can lay my hands on immediately (the rest are at the back of the junk room) are deffo both 1391406 models, UK layout and made here too.

The 1989-11-16 one is my daily keyboard and has been for about 10 years now keeping the same feel. The 1990-11-30 one has a much flatter feel to the keyboard response and IMHO is not as nice.

I've used one other model M and that one was UK layout blue logo'd (unknown model) and had the same feel as my 1989 one. Another similar IBM KB I used at work was on an AS/400 terminal (5250?). This had the deader feel too.

Now feel the need to enter the junk room jungle to check out my other KBs. Might not be seen again before Christmas :smile:

[ricercar]

I have two type Ms disassembled, initially because their rivets popped. Yet each has the same flaw which makes me hesitate to put any effort into rivet replacement and re-assembly. The plastic frame with cylinders (the black part that that bolts onto the metal plate) is cracked, such that each row of keys is nearly separated into its own black strip.

Is this worth restoring? Is a cracked black frame a known and fixable issue? My search has no results for
black plastic crack type m

[GenEric35]

I have two type Ms disassembled, initially because their rivets popped. Yet each has the same flaw which makes me hesitate to put any effort into rivet replacement and re-assembly. The plastic frame with cylinders (the black part that that bolts onto the metal plate) is cracked, such that each row of keys is nearly separated into its own black strip.

Is this worth restoring? Is a cracked black frame a known and fixable issue? My search has no results for
black plastic crack type m

short answer, yes, having 60 solid point of attachment is exactly what it needs, but as mechanical as it may look, it's more of a watch maker project



It's worth it if you have the patience, motivation and time of working with this fragile plastic plate, you'll be drilling and/or tapping threads into it,  the holes and the screws are very small to work with, some might find this annoying. I had a confortable place to work on it for extended hours if needed, and cheap headlamp that allowed me to always see clearly the little details while keeping my hands free.

I saw a few actuator plates from late 80's model M and they all seem either cracked or very close to crack, with the light reflection on the plate i can see the the plate takes the curve of the boards making 5-6 longitudinal black strips(mine were almost all separated) accross the board rather than bending progressively( basically each of the panels sits flat, and i think that's normal, each of these panels contains a row of spring assemblies, and none of the lines run across the rows of rivets and the lines don't run across the row of spring assemblies either, they are all just parallel, i think it's normal that each strip sits flat like it does, the actuator board is made of plastic that is very dry and is made much thinner along that line to allow the whole plate to take the curve(something like a millimeter thick along those horizontal lines) the difficulty is to do work on this plate without damaging it more, the rivets placements are not near those lines(cracks) so the bolts are just holding it down tightly. When working on it, each row sits flat on it's wells so there's not much stress on the cracks, it's just when moving it around each row needs support. In my case, I didn't damage it more, the results were perfect and it's exactly what it needed

[ricercar]

GenEric, you're my hero. Thanks for the detailed analysis.

[krstf]

Just got a 1390120 with german layout in the mail yesterday, which I'm typing on right now.
Differences between my 1390120 and 1301403, besides the label:
the left Alt button's inscription is green (I'm suspecting the keycap has been changed at some point).
The 1390120 feels slightly heavier - haven't used a scale though..
My first impressions after the first few pages on typing are, that the 1390120 feels both lighter but also more tight to type on. The individual keys seem to have less 'play' when resting my fingers on them. It's extremly nice to type on, and I think I prefer it to the feel of my 1988 1391403, this might temporarily.
I also prefer the abscence of Led's.

Oh and since this is my first post I wanted to say hi to everyone. I've been lurking around the forum for a few weeks now and it has been a great source of information.

[ch_123]

We recently established that at some point during, IBM did decrease the thickness of the steel used in the backplate of the Model M, making older models noticably heavier than newer ones.

The Green alt thing is a bit strange. If you look at any of the pics on clickykeyboards.com, you'll note that they kept using green Alts till the bitter end... I have used a 1993-vintage 1391406 (like your one except UK layout) where the left Alt was green, and the right one was an AltGr, which had black lettering.

The lightness is probably down to use and age, although you aren't the first person to claim that their '120 is a more pleasant keyboard than their other Ms.

Out of curiosity, you say that your '120 is German layout... Are you sure the part number is 1390120? Is it not something like 1390122?

[microsoft windows]

Those blue control keys come from terminal emulator keyboards.

[ch_123]

Those blue control keys come from terminal emulator keyboards.

Not necessarily. They were also used on RS/6000 keyboards, ones with Wordperfect keys and some other custom jobs.

[ch_123]

I've seen green and black printed Alt keys.

I've also seen green Alt Gr keycaps - [strike]still don't know what Alt Gr means[/strike] now I know - but not black ones.

The boys in Greenock really were lazy ****s...

[Hak Foo]

I seen/typed on tons of 1391401 but i never seen a 1390120/1390131  nor type on it. So whoever did: Can you tell if there is any diffriance between it beside the logo and some stabilazers?

An early 1391401 is much like a 1390120.  I'm restoring a 1390120 and it even has the marker for the LED card, and a socket.
The stabilizers changed later.

[maxlugar]

The lightness is probably down to use and age, although you aren't the first person to claim that their '120 is a more pleasant keyboard than their other Ms.

Out of my 22 Model Ms, my Jan 1986 1390120 is my favourite.  It weighs the most and has the best feel by far... but perhaps it's all in my head because I parted with more than $200 when I bought it from Brandon last year  

Seriously, the 1390120 really does feel "nicer" compared to most of the other Ms.  The springs are well worn, but it's in excellent cosmetic conditon.  I also occasionally use a June 1989 1391401(also from Brandon) at work which is almost as nice.  

God love Jim, Chuck, and the entire crew at Unicomp - the current production of Model Ms are not the same as the classic pre-Lexmark era Model Ms manufactured by IBM.  All of the scientific testing and measurements aside, the typing experience on "classic" Model Ms, in good conditon, is superior to new Unicomps and most of the Lexmarks, in my opinion.

I'm really not that passionate when it comes to the the Silver vs. White vs. Blue label  Model M debate because anyone who has used one knows the 84-key IBM PC AT keyboard with the odd layout and lack of dedicated arrow keys is still superior to every other keyboard.  No matter what I've tried, I keep returning to the King of Keyboards.  

I'm typing on a Realforce 87U (an expensive and excellent modern keyboard) right now only because everyone else is sleeping.

Buckling springs over capacitive contact key switches forever!

[ch_123]

An early 1391401 is much like a 1390120.  I'm restoring a 1390120 and it even has the marker for the LED card, and a socket.
The stabilizers changed later.

Technically the LED connectors are for the 1390131, but yeah, I'm pretty sure that the older 1391401s would be identical.

[Hak Foo]

Are we gonna go over the snobby "my old M is better than your newer M" thing once again? The 1390120 does not feel better. This is on the same level as almost everybody claiming to be an audiophile, hearing those tiny quality differences. Except if you do a blind test, almost no one turns out to be an audiophile. The difference is a bunch of *******s. And those setups are not identical, like the Ms. I dare anyone claiming that their Model M is better to a blind test.

Honestly, my favourite is my Customizer 104.  It feels tight and new, and has Windows keys.

[sethstorm]

I investigated this issue by obtaining 41 Model Ms. Not regarding variations due to different states of wear, they are all the same regarding the key switch feel, except for TWO keyboards. The color of the plate is not relevant. You can obtain the full test results for a measly $199.

That's a bit overkill, but it certainly makes for a rigorous test.

[EverythingIBM]

I seen/typed on tons of 1391401 but i never seen a 1390120/1390131  nor type on it. So whoever did: Can you tell if there is any diffriance between it beside the logo and some stabilazers?

The springs in my 1390131 sound very metallic compared to other model Ms which just sound dampened. It could be because I'm missing one rivet; but ALL of the springs do this on any area of the board. I really enjoy the metallic sound, but I wouldn't say that it's better than the newer models. Okay you have the extra support holes, but I'm not sure if they do that much (they could have been removed for issues OTHER than cost).

I wouldn't get too hyped up about it, unless you want the aluminum brushed logo (ooooh, aaaaaah).

The case is probably thicker plastic (or a different batch of metal), but technically, having a lighter keyboard is to one's advantage. I certainly find my Model M bulky; and I use a lot of bulky oversized equipment!

[ch_123]

You have the same thing with beer. Nobody likes the big brands, it's piss. No, you have to try this Belgium beer made by Interbrew monks. But in a blind test, the cheap OEM beer ends up at the number 1 spot, the big brands follow, and the fake monks end last.

I think some of the Czech beers. The big name brands really do taste like piss...

[microsoft windows]

I'm still laughing about the "snobby" part.  Americans aren't snobby like Europeans.  In fact tomorrow, after this health care vote,  we may be Socialists like those Canadians! :biggrin1:

That won't happen without a major uproar from the people, lawsuits against the federal government filed by 37 states, and a consideral amount of speculation on whether using the reconciliation process in this way is constitutional. To sum it all up in a nutshell- The Democrats are throwing away their political careers.

[krstf]

Hi agian,

Ripster - the weight of my keyboard is 2230g without the coiled cable.

ch_123: I can't check the exact model number right now, since the label on the lower case is missing. But I will check it as soon as I got the means (nutdriver) to open the
board, which should be soon after the weekend.

cheers

[ch_123]

Unfortunately the label on the back of the keyboard is the only one with the keyboard's part number. The one on the back plate has the part number of the back plate, unsurprisingly enough.

[ricercar]

Blind tests

We'd all fail. Everyone here on geekhack is sighted.

[ch_123]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8474611.stm

The result is that many of America's poorest citizens have a deep emotional attachment to a party that serves the interests of its richest.

[ch_123]

What year was your grey label Model M made?

[ch_123]

I assume it must have been made after the mystical changeover.

[itlnstln]

We'd all fail. Everyone here on geekhack is sighted.

Cue Stevie Wonder in 3... 2...

[itlnstln]

the parking lots are always full of Michigan-plated cars with their idiot drivers on their cell phones (illegal, at least while the car's moving, here).

That's what Texans do.  ***** and complain about a national health bill, then take a trip to Mexico to get the drugs they need, because they are too expensive in the US.  Oh, and don't **** with their Medicare, because they don't want government-run healthcare. *facepalm*

[ricercar]

Aug 89.

Wow, the Berlin Wall was still up when that keyboard was made.

[ch_123]

One of these days I'll find me an 03-JUL-89 1391401...

[didjamatic]

Weights of some Model M's without cables:
1390120 - Jan1986 - 4lbs 14.5oz (no LED's)
1390131 - Aug1986 - 4lbs 15.5oz
1390131 - Sept1988 - 4lbs 14oz
1399240 - Jan1995 - 4lbs 9oz