anybody have both m13 and m5-1 or m5-2 ?

[Voixdelion]

Wondering what are the pros and cons of each model and whether to go in search of one or just go with a unicomp model instead of hunting for older boards... Opinions?

[ch_123]

Well, the M13 is a trackpoint keyboard, and the M5 is a trackball keyboard. Kinda comparing apples and oranges really.

The Unicomp equivalent of the M5-2 (The On-The-Ball) is pretty much the same as it's IBM predecessor, except you can get a USB version with Windows keys. Unicomp's successor to the M13, the Endurapro, uses a different style of pointing stick which is inferior to the one used in the original Lexmark/Maxiswitch made M13s, but again, Windows keys and USB are available. They have no equivalent to the M5-1.

Relative merits? As much as certain people are going to kill me for this, I wouldn't bother with an M5-1 or M5-2. The M5-1 trackball is tiny, and probably too small to properly usable. (Oh, and they are incredibly rare) I've never used an M5-2, but I can't help that feel that a small trackball located in a rather awkward place is going to be a very poor substitute for having a dedicated trackball like the Kensington Expert Mouse and CST.

The M13 is a personal favorite. The only issue with it is that you have to change your computer's mouse settings... You need to turn up sensitivity as far as it goes and turn off "Enhance pointer preceision". Because it was designed for computers in the early 90s, the response is poor by today's standards. When this is done, I find it's good enough to be used without an external mouse. Then again, I have plenty of exposure to trackpoints from my Thinkpad, so YMMV.

[kishy]

I've got a black M13 and an M5-2...can you be more specific about what you need to know?

[ch_123]

Kishy - hows the tracking on the M5-2?

[ch_123]

The M4-1 sits somewhere in the middle depending on what you're doing with it. It's sort of like a poor man's HHKB with a trackpoint.

[Voixdelion]

Kishy, which do you prefer to use most often, the M13 or M5-2?  (As the m-1 is rather non-existent as pointed out, realistically if I were to get one of these it would be more likely one of these two).   I can imagine that neither is a good substitute for my expert mouse, but I am wondering for those times when it is just not convenient to move my hands from the keyboard partiularly if just a momentary adjustment is necessary.  The m5-1 was my original interest primarily because the positioning of the trackball seemed more sensible than on the m5-2 and I am not familiar with the trackpoint lever thingummy so wasn't sure if I would like it or if I might trip over it whilst typing; but as the m5-1 cannot be found easily then the playing field is leveled somewhat.  My familiarity with trackballs is mitigated by the undesirable placement and the desirable location of the trackpoint features is in turn weighing against my unfamiliarity with the device.  I know only that those touch pads on laptops make me insane, and so fear the worst with unknown pointing devices.

I guess at this point I am also considering how much I would even use the feature at all or if  its just that hanging out around this forum has made me giddy...  SO what can anyone tell me about how often they find themselves using these devices and under what circumstances or applications do you find them most or least useful?


@webwit: :jaw: Holy CROW!! (You are a keyboard W***E!)  and why do you say that about the hierarchy as such?

[ch_123]

I can literaly just use my M13's trackpoint for anything except games. With a bit of practise and playing around with sensitivity, it becomes second nature to use. I regularly use it by itself with no other mouse attached. In terms of personal preference -

Large Trackball (CST or Kensington) > Modern Thinkpad trackpoint > M13 trackpoint > small trackball (Logitech or the like) > Mice > Touchpads

[kishy]

I just typed a very long, comprehensive reply and the wifi dropped. Upon hitting "post quick reply", my message disappeared forever and failed to post.

Summary: both track approximately the same I find. M13 pointing device best suited for sitting at a desk, M5-2 pointing device best suited for operation in your lap.

[ch_123]

I often use my M13 as a lap keyboard. It works quite well for that purpose.

[kishy]

I often use my M13 as a lap keyboard. It works quite well for that purpose.

I disagree because I find that the trackpoint is too close to my body, meaning I have to do some ridiculously uncomfortable thing with my arm to actually use it.

The M5-2 trackball is in a much better place for this type of operation.

[skcheng]

I'm gonna get an IBM M13 with the original trackpoint here soon to compare with the Unicomp made Industrial M13 (which has the same "resistive device" as the Endurapro).

Will let ya know what I think but I found the Unicomp tracking device a imprecise, low rez dog that would NOT do what I told it to do.

I think you'll find that the M13 trackpoint isn't a whole lot better.   Even at the fastest setting, it's still somewhat slow and "wiggly".   Or maybe it's just my M13.  I could use it in a pinch, but it nowhere near replaced my mouse.

[skcheng]

We'll see.  I use a Fujitsu version of a trackpoint daily on my convertible tablet so it's not like I don't like trackpoints.

Okay, then maybe you'll like it.   I use the touchpads on all of my laptops.   So maybe it's me.

[Mental Hobbit]

I just typed a very long, comprehensive reply and the wifi dropped. Upon hitting "post quick reply", my message disappeared forever and failed to post.

Ctr-A, ctrl-c, click "post". Made this a habit ages ago. Must have saved me weeks of re-typing since.

[elbowglue]

So I have a bunch of keyboards with built in pointing devices, Mx11800, IBM M13, Desko UP 5023, (endurapro on the way).  I don't ever use these built in pointing devices because I think my mouse works a lot better in general.  I also have a trackpad on my lenovo s10 and a trackpoint on my oldschool IBM laptop, I prefer the trackpoint over the trackpad.  The only time I use a non-mouse pointing device is when I'm using my lenovo S10 sitting at the kitchen table or something.

If I were in a pinch with low desk space or didn't have any working mouses I think the M13 or the Desko would be the best pointer.  In fact the Mx11800 isn't too bad either.

[ch_123]

The main issue with the Unicomp FSR is that it has a lot of play in it because it's sensing force and therefore has to move around. The IBM Trackpoint II used in the M13, M4-1 and earlier Thinkpads also needs the sensitivity cranked up, but when it does so it feels more responsive, and it doesn't wiggle because it's sensing the strain applied on it. The FSR also is a bit weak with diagnols, whereas the Trackpoint II seems to work fine in all directions.

I can't help but shake the feeling that Ripster will stack some coins on the trackpoints and say that they're the same. =P

[itlnstln]

Nice pic.

[ricercar]

I find that the trackpoint is too close to my body, meaning I have to do some ridiculously uncomfortable thing with my arm to actually use it.

It's called "masturbation." Keep going; it gets better.

[kishy]

It's called "masturbation." Keep going; it gets better.

Bahahaha.

I'm surprised it took that long for someone to put that spin on it.

[Voixdelion]

Ohhhhkay.  There is definitely some low-flying aircraft zooming right over MY head!  But um...

Webwit, I am still curious as to your reasoning behind the rankings you've given (you are obviously an authority given your collection!)  Any opinion however subjective will help just to try to get a feel for the choices.

I've drawn a bead on a M5-1 and think if it looks in good shape, I will pick it up just because I think it's kinda neat despite it being the clear underdog here in this thread.  According to the Dansdata article the device isn't atrocious to maneuver, and I would not be using it except in instances of brief forays to the mouse most likely necessitated to adjust a window view or something (like surveys which constantly have me back and forth to the kb- rrrrrghhh!)

 I am still curious about the M-13 because it seems that pointing device actually means that fingers barely leave the home keys for that adjustment.  Specifically, in the differences between the vintage and unicomp variety because if I do pickup the M5-1 I may take unicomp route for saving myself the hunting, though there are a few advertised refurbs available.  What kind of price range difference is there if any for a respectable vintage vs unicomp trackpoint?  

and  do I understand correctly that the unicomp stick has more range of motion and this is perhaps contributing to its feeling "less responsive" because it must travel before it registers?  Do the IBM sticks move at all?  I don't really understand the measure of "strain" as it applies here.    

Sorry a lot of questions, but I am one that believes in gathering as much data as possible on too many things...

[skcheng]

Yep......it's slow and at least on my unit, just not that accurate.  The rt. and lt click right by the thumb is nice though.    Doesn't really compare to the trackpoint on the IBM/Lenovo laptops imho.

[Voixdelion]

what isthe exact dimension of the ball on the m5-1, anyway?

[sethstorm]

I just got the Maxiswitch version of the M13 and compared to the Unicomp/Lexmark version they feel.... Pretty much the same. Maybe I'm being too picky but the trackpoints both are just not sensitive enough for my 1900x1200 resolution even with sensitivity cranked to max.  At least compared to my Fujitsu convertible table it's too much work to navigate that big a screen.

I have both (despite having only the internal parts of my Maxi-Switch) the Maxi-Switch and Lexmark M13 black models.  The most difference I could think of would be with the keycaps.  Given that, it's not much.  

Ripster:
With that said about the keycap wear, have you noticed any wear difference between the Maxi-switch and Lexmark M13 black keys?  What I've seen is that the Lexmark keys have a bit more likeliness to hold the lettering vs. the Maxi-switch being a bit less likely to hold the lettering -if only by a barely perceptible amount.   I thought there was some word about it and if so, link to the post(s).

[Voixdelion]

awww cmon webby, don't be coy!  Elaborate, won't you?  I need the benefit of your carnal keyboard knowledge to make an almost entirely subjective decision without having any first hand subjective basis of comparison. :noidea:  My only hope is to string together enough consensus on what the sensation of use is similar in experience to that daisy chains into something that I can relate to within my own experiences in order to guess what I might like or not about a product I'm not going to get the chance to "try before buy"ing. I gotta live vicariously through you else make poor decision :decision:which leaves me poor in turn. :help:?

[ch_123]

The M5-2 seems like the sort of thing that might be useful for certain industrial/POS applications, but for the regular user, the trackball is in the wrong place.

[Voixdelion]

Excellent, thank you.  That does confirm some of my initial suppositions/guesses as well, but this is my sticky point (no pun intended:tongue:):

to deliver to certain customers who prefered a ball over a trackpoint.

Ay, there's the rub... how does one know if one does prefer the ball if one has never used a trackpoint?  Herein lies my dilemma... Basically I had pre-supposed I would like the M5-1 b/c of the positioning vs M5-2 - to move that much, its basically reaching for the trackball next to the board anyway, I figure.   But how to know about whether I will love or loathe the trackpoint?  I fear I will hate it, as I do touchpads, but then again, the worst if I do is just another good typing board, right?  And if I like, it has the best positioning for type/point minimal maneuvering of the three... But about the only thing I can possibly guess it being likened to is using the joystick on my old Atari to play Missile Command (and boy that dates me a bit, huh?).  

I had never actually played it in the arcade so my trackball experience came far after that and was far superior, though I certainly wouldn't expect an "onboard" device to do what that did, I think the idea of pushing a stick and waiting would be less satisfying to me than having to spin the heck out of a little trackball.  I think that I fear feeling it would be less active whereas the ball, however slowly it tracks, would at least be something I could stay in sync with better.  Does that make any sort of sense to anyone?  

     
Are there any other mech boards with good typing feel with a preferable pointing solution?  Perhaps I can look beyond the M-Lot as well... Perhaps a scorpius pro 35 or Hmmm, but it would be a shame to waste a lead on the M5-1 considering I thought it an impossible feat to obtain anyway.  I don't know that its being last in line there is enough to discourage me into turning down that opportunity unless I have a reasonable confidence that I will prefer something else by a moderate to great margin that is more easily or less expensively obtained, and right now the M13 is on the same cost curve.  

Well, I guess the only thing other to do is find a similarity that IS available to try and that might give me some kind of sensory data to compare against.  Is there a  current laptop model likely to be on display at a best buy or something where I can test drive the trackpoint tech in general?  If so, which should I look for that will give the closest approximation of how the M13 might feel to use?

[kishy]

k, here's how you know if you like the M5-2 or not.

Put a normal fullsize keyboard (Model M is best...) on the desk in front of you in the normal position it would be in for regular use. Then cup your right hand around the upper right corner of the keyboard (such that thumb is on top surface where ball would be, and index/middle fingers are on the back side where the rear buttons are).

Is this a comfortable position for mousing for you? If so you may find it tolerable. If not, you won't...

Now, humouring what I said earlier, put the same keyboard in your lap and try the same thing. I think it'll become obvious why I say the M5-2 is best suited to lap use.

All of this of course disregards the fact that the trackball has a "low DPI" issue, or something like that. I never experienced it as a problem seemingly because of magic acceleration performed by my cheapo USB to PS/2 converters.

[kishy]

That reminds me of a combo trackball/optical mouse, Compaq branded, made by Micro Innovations I think. It was usable as a mouse with the ball set for scrolling. Not so much when you switched it into the other mode...ball for mousing, optics for scrolling.

Traded it for my original PS/2 mouse. I won that one for sure.

Bad picture, but this is it:


Edit: no it's not. I had that one too, that's the mini portable one. There was a bigger one...quite large actually, with side buttons too.

[Voixdelion]

Okay - all things considered, i just got the pics in and I think it is Kismet or Providence or whatever have you, maybe it's just love and who can argue with that?  I vaguely remember using a trackpoint device that left my fingertip feeling sore, and even small, I never did meet a trackball I didn't like half as much as I didn't like other conceptual designs which didn't fit the bill for me.

 I have decided that I will lay claim to the unlikely M5-1 as my gut hasn't steered me wrong half as often as my brain has.  Plus I find a fairly strong argument that it was fated to be considering how rarely they are come across and that I should have been one to do so in relatively short order after setting my sights (and yes, heart) on one.  

Thanks very much, all.  I feel much more confident about this than I did a day or two ago. Quite excited about this now;  I can't stand being indecisive so it feels quite good now to have a course of action, even if it is a course that leads to me emptying my wallet.  I have a good feeling there will be no regret about that with any model-M choice I might have made anyway.  

Yay!  Next time we'll talk SERIOUS trackball for full size real world daily use... heh-heh