Author Topic: Samsung DT-35 phenomenon  (Read 28867 times)

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Offline aerial

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Samsung DT-35 phenomenon
« on: Sun, 18 April 2010, 06:22:42 »
I was wondering what is so special about that keyborad:

Samsung DT-35



As far as I know, keyboard is regular rubber dome type and very cheap one. That keyboard is very popular among korean progamers playing starcraft. But it is hard to understand why they like it so much, since they have access to mechanical keyboards, and still they pick that cheap samsung (which is no longer aviable in europe/america I think).
Maybe that was just discovered long time ago as keyboard that feels superior to other cheap keyboards, and later new players use it just becuayse they copy older players and have very limited knowladge about hardware? It is quite hard to believe, since that game is really mastered by these guys, probably most mastered computer pvp game ever in history, professional teams where each player practice up to 14 hours per day, madness. There must be something else special about that keyboard, considering how much attention to detail they put to perform better.
« Last Edit: Sun, 18 April 2010, 06:36:16 by aerial »

Offline didjamatic

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Samsung DT-35 phenomenon
« Reply #1 on: Sun, 18 April 2010, 08:34:36 »
Samsung is a Korean company.
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Offline ch_123

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« Reply #2 on: Sun, 18 April 2010, 08:36:35 »
Profound.

Offline kriminal

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Samsung DT-35 phenomenon
« Reply #3 on: Sun, 18 April 2010, 08:37:11 »
heh, starcraft is the koreans national sport after all
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Offline ch_123

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« Reply #4 on: Sun, 18 April 2010, 08:45:18 »
And a leading cause of death and child neglect...

Offline didjamatic

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« Reply #5 on: Sun, 18 April 2010, 08:47:08 »
I believe their national sport is considered Archery.  Many of the best archers in the world are Korean and they are the only country to have archery in their history without any gaps for centuries.  They train from age 3 and by the time they are in their teens will shoot up to 10 hours per day and only the best get to remain in their archery programs.
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Offline microsoft windows

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« Reply #6 on: Sun, 18 April 2010, 09:14:24 »
Don't they have anything better to do than shoot arrows 10 hours every day?
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Offline XiNAVRO

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Samsung DT-35 phenomenon
« Reply #7 on: Sun, 18 April 2010, 09:16:06 »
It's the cost-performance that attracts most of the users. At ten dollars, the keyboard itself is a bargain compared to the other ones - and for a membrane, it feels quite okay. In most cases, much better than what you can get at 30-40 bucks. *cough* Logitech *cough*

DT-35 owes its current popularity back in the times when many internet cafes just opened in South Korea. Everyone started playing StarCraft, and to supply dozens (even hundreds) of keyboards, that one was THE bang for the buck. And this is just my hunch, but if the professional players started playing using that keyboard at internet cafes, and eventually got used to it so much that they slow down on any other layout / mechanism... well, that explains why they would keep it.

Not to mention that if everyone uses it everywhere, the only thing you have to carry around with you is your choice of mouse.



Quote from: microsoft windows;173199
Don't they have anything better to do than shoot arrows 10 hours every day?
Hmmm... perhaps not. StarCraft maybe? :P
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Offline Rajagra

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Samsung DT-35 phenomenon
« Reply #8 on: Sun, 18 April 2010, 09:37:48 »
It's for keybagging. It's like teabagging except you taunt your enemy that you beat him with such a crappy keyboard.

(Probably good value at the correct price, but not at $60 like some people are paying for them. XiNAVRO's explanation is probably right.)
« Last Edit: Sun, 18 April 2010, 09:41:46 by Rajagra »

Offline aerial

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Samsung DT-35 phenomenon
« Reply #9 on: Sun, 18 April 2010, 10:36:16 »

Offline XiNAVRO

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Samsung DT-35 phenomenon
« Reply #10 on: Sun, 18 April 2010, 10:51:16 »
If anyone's trying to get them now, the one with the Samsung logo is slightly better than the recent QSENN branded ones. Samsung quit making keyboards and their division (more like an OEM) became GP Electronics, which is the current manufacturer for the QSENN DT-35; while doing so, they relocated their factory from Korea to China. This was back in 2003 (or 2004).

The keyboard itself had some changes at the time. Samsung models do not support multiple keystrokes more than four, unlike the later QSENN models. The quality of rubberdomes had decreased on the other hand, so it's not really that great for typing purposes.

Considering that it's a cheap, durable, and easily replaceable (thanks to its high production numbers and cheap cost) keyboard, there's really no better substitute for professional gamers unless you plan to use mechanical keyboards. At least in Korea.
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Offline Viett

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Samsung DT-35 phenomenon
« Reply #11 on: Sun, 18 April 2010, 12:32:25 »
Quote from: aerial;173222
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwQE4HuUUCA


I've always hated SC hotkeys. You have to move your left hand to the arrows to move the screen around. It's either that or you click on the minimap for everything, which I do a lot. They also have too many right-handed hotkeys, especially 'p' for Probes and Plyons. Notice Boxer also hit's the 'h' pretty frequently for Hold Position.

He's pretty insane, though. Notice he also uses F2-4 for remembering locations on the map, which is incredibly difficult to implement correctly.
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Offline Zalusithix

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Samsung DT-35 phenomenon
« Reply #12 on: Sun, 18 April 2010, 13:24:52 »
Quote from: aerial;173177
korean progamers playing starcraft
Errr... I'm failing to see the correlation between programmers and StarCraft players... The overlap between those two groups wouldn't make up a very large demographic. At least not compared to the overall group of StarCraft players.

Offline bitflipper

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Samsung DT-35 phenomenon
« Reply #13 on: Sun, 18 April 2010, 13:27:20 »
progamer <> programmer

Offline Zalusithix

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« Reply #14 on: Sun, 18 April 2010, 13:31:11 »
Ah, I failed there lol... Teach me to *not* read things quickly only once before replying!

Offline Arc'xer

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Samsung DT-35 phenomenon
« Reply #15 on: Sun, 18 April 2010, 14:05:37 »
It's pretty much, not a special keyboard.

Sorta like XiNAVRO posted it's pretty much because at the time it was one of the most common keyboards on the market.

It's actually kinda funny they use that keyboard because at team liquid from the few threads and posts that I've read on the keyboard. A number of people have posted how crappy it actually is. But I think the general consensus is I want the keyboard I don't care and fanboyism or should I say not Japanophile but Koreanophiles. Hell even when presented with a superior keyboard some of these guys over at TL and whatnot completely overlook said superior keyboard.

In some cases, both to the older or should I say original version. As well the greedy new version "let's exploit this phenomena and get money for it". Both have very similar problems in some cases they can't even do 2-key rollover like CTRL+C.

Either way it's surprising that especially in people who use keyboard so much that they'd continue using cheap keyboards. A keyboard is not gonna make you a better player but it's like war. Would you rather go out with a rusty gun, that can hardly fire in other words "Chauchat(if you know anything about WW1)" or use a clean weapon that is in proper working order.

But it also shows you that pro-gamers don't know best. It's just like here with FPS pro-gamers. Who everyone and their mother emulates because most pro-gamers play out of habit and not out of intelligence. So if they keep using a microsoft basic mouse from the early 2000s even though there are more modern mice with much superior capabilities. It says a lot and not in a good way.

Either way these pro-gamers in most cases don't know much and I guess don't really care. Which is kinda strange cause you'd think you'd want the best advantage possible. It all depends on that person to take advantage of said advantage. But isn't it comforting to know your equipment works every time on time.

Offline didjamatic

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Samsung DT-35 phenomenon
« Reply #16 on: Sun, 18 April 2010, 14:08:45 »
This is with fingers and an Olympic style recurve bow, not a compound using a mechanical release.
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Offline keyb_gr

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Samsung DT-35 phenomenon
« Reply #17 on: Sun, 18 April 2010, 14:35:34 »
Quote from: Arc'xer;173264
Both have very similar problems in some cases they can't even do 2-key rollover like CTRL+C.

Figuring out why this particular example is highly unlikely is left to the reader.
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Offline ch_123

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« Reply #18 on: Sun, 18 April 2010, 14:39:48 »
Quote from: Arc'xer;173264
"Chauchat(if you know anything about WW1)"


Like the Das 3 so?

Offline Arc'xer

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« Reply #19 on: Sun, 18 April 2010, 14:47:11 »
Quote from: keyb_gr;173275
Figuring out why this particular example is highly unlikely is left to the reader.

That's a good point. But I used to use this cheapo logitech keyboard one of those that costs like $1.25 and it exhibited this event where you need to make sure a two key action is done.

If you saw me at the time doing copying and pasting you'd think it would work on the first go. But you need to hold ctrl and hit C quite a few times so it would even register the action. I'm not saying it didn't work it just didn't want to work. Ironically I switched over back to an old microsoft internet pro because at least it could do 4-key rollover until I bought a G11. But that was like 3 years ago.

Offline aerial

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Samsung DT-35 phenomenon
« Reply #20 on: Sun, 18 April 2010, 14:49:00 »
progamer -> pro-gamer, it stands for professional gamers, people who play games professionally (job).

//edit ninja'd :P

And btw, as for key rollover, that can give us idea, how overrated it is. I mean, if it doesn't bother korean progamers how can it be a major problem for casual players (it is like prediction for mouses, everyone used it for years, but once people "disovered" it, it started to be problem that makes cerain devices considered as completely useless).
« Last Edit: Sun, 18 April 2010, 14:58:57 by aerial »

Offline Arc'xer

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« Reply #21 on: Sun, 18 April 2010, 14:58:21 »
Quote from: aerial;173283
progamer -> pro-gamer, it stands for professional gamers, people who play games professionally (job).

//edit ninja'd :P

And btw, as for key rollover, that can give us idea, how overrated it is. I mean, if it doesn't bother korean progamers how can it be a major problem for casual players (it is like prediction for mouses, everyone used it for years, but once people "disovered" it, it started to be problem that makes cerain devices considered as completely useless).

I know.

Was just trying to avoid confusion to those that didn't.

Edit: No offense but that's like saying don't advance technology because we reached the limit. The sheer fact is there are people who are more sensitive and or more aware of situations occurring. My guess is those progamers are either so used to the negative effects of their keyboard that they avoid them or they actuate their key so much that the action is produced. In other words to argue that part of their APM is wasted because they need to know what they did worked is logical because the hardware does not respond to the users will.

And as for the entire mouse thing please don't me started I really don't want to get into all that.
« Last Edit: Sun, 18 April 2010, 15:14:53 by Arc'xer »

Offline ch_123

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« Reply #22 on: Sun, 18 April 2010, 15:18:05 »
Quote from: aerial;173283
progamer -> pro-gamer, it stands for professional gamers, people who play games professionally (job).

//edit ninja'd :P

And btw, as for key rollover, that can give us idea, how overrated it is. I mean, if it doesn't bother korean progamers how can it be a major problem for casual players (it is like prediction for mouses, everyone used it for years, but once people "disovered" it, it started to be problem that makes cerain devices considered as completely useless).


Starcraft is an RTS. RTS games don't need NKRO because you don't have the same sort of simultaneous key mashing like you do in FPS games and MMORPGs.

Offline Rajagra

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« Reply #23 on: Sun, 18 April 2010, 18:05:01 »
Quote from: aerial;173283
And btw, as for key rollover, that can give us idea, how overrated it is. I mean, if it doesn't bother korean progamers how can it be a major problem for casual players


Progamers are more likely to be aware of the NKRO problem, and use different key bindings to work around it.

I noted in some of the Starcraft forums some people had problem with rapid key sequences (a1a2a3, something like that) that were not working as expected. Could well be that too many keys were down at once and "anti-ghosting" was blocking keys from being sent.

If I was a progamer I'd get a NKRO board on principle. They exist. They avoid the limitations of other boards. If you don't use the right tool for the job you have no right to call yourself a pro anything.

Offline D-EJ915

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Samsung DT-35 phenomenon
« Reply #24 on: Sun, 18 April 2010, 18:07:55 »
Maybe they just like the retard-strength big reverse L enter key lol.

Offline Rajagra

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« Reply #25 on: Sun, 18 April 2010, 20:57:42 »
Quote from: ripster;173328
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Offline aerial

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« Reply #26 on: Mon, 19 April 2010, 02:53:18 »
I understand that keyboards without rollover are better, thats is obvious, there is no argument why cheap rollover keyboard could be any better. My point is, that thing is just little overhyped, another excuse to buy another expensive keyboard :) People tend to fool themselves that new keybaord where you can press 20 buttons will improve their performance. In theory it helps, in practice - not so much (if you compare it to what is used by unquestionably best sc players in the world).

Another thing is what game is considered. Starcraft 1 is pretty brutal to keyboards, but as someone said before, there are games that force you to press more keys simultaneously. As for sc2, it there is no way it could beat sc1 as keyboard benchmark, since lots of macro aspects were simplified, you can select large groups of units (no limit like sc1), there is automining (no need to separate workers manually), and you can for example select multiple buildings at once, so giving production orders is much easier (in sc1 you have to switch each building manually ect).

Anyway, I agree that "better keyboards are better", there is no need to copy other users just because they are good players for example. But it also proves that key rollover problem is often overrated and it doesn't make that much of a difference if it comes to reality. Keyboard geeks will obviously attack person who says that because it is like blasphemy for them, but you have to admit that choices of group of players that practice ~14 hours per day speak for themselves.

Offline DryDry

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Samsung DT-35 phenomenon
« Reply #27 on: Fri, 23 April 2010, 03:27:18 »
hi aerial
i was a semi-professinal player in starcraft
the reason that the dt35 popular was no-done-lag kb(sorry i dont know how to express the exactly mean)
for example
the team 1 team 2 team3
when you attack enemy,usually you touch 1a 2a 3a 4a ....am i right?
now you could find team 1 gone ,team 2 gone,but team 3  was stay at original place or maybe team 4
we called this circumstance kb's no-done-lag,and dt35 was no problem.
i am sorry for my poor english
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Offline ch_123

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« Reply #28 on: Fri, 23 April 2010, 06:22:21 »
I think what you are trying to describe is "ghosting" - this is where when you press some keys in rapid succession the keyboard fails to register all of them.

Offline Rajagra

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Samsung DT-35 phenomenon
« Reply #29 on: Fri, 23 April 2010, 06:53:24 »
So the bottom line is this keyboard gets the job done, where some other keyboards fail. And the number of these other keyboards is significant enough that the problem was identified, and a need arose for identifying a board that worked properly.

Doesn't this prove that keyboard standards are too low? Manufacturers have been playing the "how badly can we make these before they stop selling" game for too long.

The seemingly simple task of working out what keys are pressed seems to be beyond them, at least while they are working out ways to knock a few more cents off the build cost. Features like NKRO may not be strictly necessary or cheap, but I for one am willing to pay for them to avoid this nonsense.