Author Topic: Humanscale Products  (Read 9761 times)

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Offline skcheng

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« on: Wed, 07 April 2010, 08:18:34 »
I don't know if this has been covered in the past here, but all of us talk about ergonomics, back/neck/shoulder/wrist pain and I thought I'd share a recent but VERY valuable equipment purchase that I made.  

I think many of us simply sit our keyboards and pointing devices on the same desk as our monitor/monitors.   That's awful.   Very often a sharp desk counter is pressing against our forearms/wrists and our shoulders are tense and typing is a very uncomfortable experience.  

I highly recommend the Humanscale line of products.  A good chair, adjustable keyboard tray are worth every penny imho.   At my "fun" computer, I have the 5G setup with the Humanscale Freedom chair.  The Steelcase Leap V2 is probably a nicer chair, but both are great.   Nice prices can often be found on ebay.  

Anyway, here are some pics:






Offline salcan

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« Reply #1 on: Wed, 07 April 2010, 08:26:13 »
hm, timely post. I've been considering a keyboard tray. How is it mounted to the desk? I have pretty thin Ikea desk and I'm not sure how deep a screw could go into it.

What model is that? It's often hard to figure out why I should go with one or another.

Re: Humanscale I've only have good experiences. They make very nice chairs and I used to use a monitor arm of theirs which was one of the nicer pieces of hardware that I think it's ever owned.

Offline skcheng

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« Reply #2 on: Wed, 07 April 2010, 08:37:32 »
Quote from: salcan;170285
hm, timely post. I've been considering a keyboard tray. How is it mounted to the desk? I have pretty thin Ikea desk and I'm not sure how deep a screw could go into it.

What model is that? It's often hard to figure out why I should go with one or another.

Re: Humanscale I've only have good experiences. They make very nice chairs and I used to use a monitor arm of theirs which was one of the nicer pieces of hardware that I think it's ever owned.



Get one of the 5G models.   The tray slides in and out and articulates up and down.   Complete with Gel wrist rest.  It's SOOOO comfortable.   And I can move the mousepad anywhere I want.  Tilt, forward/back, left/right etc....

This guy has the best price currently.   Check around.  Well over $300 at most online sites:

Humanscale Complete Ergo

My cheapie desk is thin too.  No worries.  The desk just needs to be deep.

skc

Offline hyperlinked

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« Reply #3 on: Wed, 07 April 2010, 09:44:54 »
MsKeyboard has an equivalent product for less at Fentek.
The HumanScale platform appears to be very similar to the 3M AKT180LE Tray
http://www.fentek-ind.com/keyboardtrey.htm

I got mine from a local ergo store and I love it. It has a sit to stand feature that lets me raise the keyboard to a height so I can type while standing if my back starts getting stiff.

Just be aware that I think they actually have the photo for the AKT180LE and AKT150LE models reversed. I have the AKT180LE and it looks almost the same as your HumanScale platform, except the mousing platform isn't round and the tray is wide enough to very comfortably fit a 104-key.
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Offline skcheng

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« Reply #4 on: Fri, 09 April 2010, 03:27:54 »
Quote from: hyperlinked;170311
MsKeyboard has an equivalent product for less at Fentek.
The HumanScale platform appears to be very similar to the 3M AKT180LE Tray
http://www.fentek-ind.com/keyboardtrey.htm

I got mine from a local ergo store and I love it. It has a sit to stand feature that lets me raise the keyboard to a height so I can type while standing if my back starts getting stiff.

Just be aware that I think they actually have the photo for the AKT180LE and AKT150LE models reversed. I have the AKT180LE and it looks almost the same as your HumanScale platform, except the mousing platform isn't round and the tray is wide enough to very comfortably fit a 104-key.



I checked out the link and I think the Humanscale product is a little nicer.  The angle tilt is a lever on the right side and the tray slides underneath my desk when not in use.  Also, the clip on mousepad articulates left and right which is my fave feature.   Even with a tenkeyless, I can rotate the mousepad over the arrow keys to avoid the reach to the far right.  And I just picked up a left clip mouse since I'm becoming Epic Trackball Man soon!!  

Lastly, I purchased on Ebay for a total of about $130 shipped which is a GREAT deal considering the quality of the product.    Epic win all across the board!!

skc

Offline YpoCaramel

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« Reply #5 on: Wed, 14 April 2010, 23:34:26 »
I don't know about the trays buddy, but I want their chairs.
Keyboards: IBM Model M M13, Filco Majestouch Tactile 104, PS3 Wireless Keypad, Logitech Dinovo mini
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Offline Voixdelion

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« Reply #6 on: Thu, 15 April 2010, 00:04:35 »
**** YEAH, pardon my French.  

That "Freedom Chair" by Neils Diffrient or whoever is on my LIST!  Ever since I sold one on ebay for a friend of mine who found it at a secondhand store for TWENTY FIVE DOLLARS!!!:doh: IT HAD THE GEL SEAT EVEN!! :Cry:

I had never heard of it and they had no ebay account so I got to sit in it whilst researching it and then writing the ad until it sold.  I sat in it for durn near 3 days straight and didn't even get a crick in the neck.  For such a simple looking thing its truly amazing the way it was designed.  I think though, you do have to make sure you  set it up adjusted properly for yourself according to the directions  and try it first.  Some people have said that the proportions are designed better for people who aren't notably tall or short, which would make sense to me considering the design concept.  Its been four years or so at least and I still dream of that chair.  

I don't know if its so much an issue of "Ergonomics" per se, but rather I know when I like something, and often that something was produced by an entity that set out to make something good for a purpose and fill an actual void rather than try to make money by selling some product and trying to coerce people into buying it.  I just bought keyboard #4 with Model M on the label in as many weeks and I don't recall a single ad.  I sought it because it filled a need.  

I'm utterly passionate about something that does its job right, by golly.  My Tempurpedic mattress is the second most expensive thing I own besides my Honda (which I also adore) and that is a fortune I would spend again in a heartbeat  - even with the hole my dog dug in the middle of it!!  Heaven :love:
"The more you tolerate each other, the less enforcement will happen."-iMav

Offline treigle

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« Reply #7 on: Sat, 01 May 2010, 15:12:45 »
First, yes Humanscale rocks!

But I think we need to approach ergonomics a bit differently.  There are times when we want to relax, have our butts and backs supported, etc, but if we sit at the computers most of the day in the most supportive/ergonomic stuff, our muscles atrophy very quickly and this leads to it's own set of discomforts (and weight gain).  (I also don't like arch supports for this reason).

If you raise your desk a few inches and perch on a Humanscale Freedom Saddle stool (backless), it's actually pretty good for your back.  The raised height of the stool allows the thigh to torso angle to open up a bit and makes it a lot easier to balance upright without back support (but still takes a week or two to get used to using the stabilizer muscles which have atrophied from sitting in chairs).  You could get a kneeling chair and not have to raise your desk, but your knees will suffer and you lose some mobility.  I think the Humanscale mentioned is probably best with the medium height cylinder (slight upcharge).

I've experimented a lot with a raised desk and sitting at a perching height stool over the last year (a cheapie $125 saddle stool to try out the concept, I hadn't yet located a local HS dealer).  Then I experimented for a couple of months with a ghetto makeshift standing height desk, before finally getting a sit/stand electric.  If I had to choose only 1 position, I'd definitely stand all day, but switching it up is even better.  

If you build yourself a standing desk, make sure you have a little legroom underneath, and a footrest bar or footstool to prop one foot up on periodically (~6 inches high).  This makes a HUGE difference...

OK, so I totally just hijacked this thread............. :)

Raise your desks, and think Diffriently!
Kinesis Advantage, Truly Ergonomic (ANSI), Filco 87

Offline hyperlinked

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« Reply #8 on: Sat, 01 May 2010, 18:11:38 »
Quote from: treigle;177878
But I think we need to approach ergonomics a bit differently.  There are times when we want to relax, have our butts and backs supported, etc, but if we sit at the computers most of the day in the most supportive/ergonomic stuff, our muscles atrophy very quickly and this leads to it's own set of discomforts (and weight gain).  (I also don't like arch supports for this reason).

You're correct about the effect of supports and their tendency to encourage atrophy, but I don't think there's any reason to fear atrophy from sitting in a supportive chair unless you're some championship caliber Pilates instructor and in that case anything but the most rigorous training will result in a loss of conditioning. For most other people... so long as you get some sustained exercise regular exercise, you'll probably be fine. Atrophy induced by supportive devices are usually a concern in immobilizing devices rather than ones that are merely supportive.

The thing is, nobody has perfect sitting posture 100% of the time and nobody is perfectly molded into their ergo chairs all the time. Regardless of how much support it offers, it just isn't comfortable to become one with the chair and not move.

Having people go with more bare bones chairs may sound like a good idea and it is for some people, but it's not something I'd recommend for most people because most people will just end up slouching when they get tired. People already slouch plenty in these ergo supportive chairs.

Yes, you should be able to support the weight of your own body in an upright posture, but there aren't many people who fully sustain such a feat day in and day out for 8-12 hours a day and when you start getting tired is when the bad stuff happens.

Quote from: treigle;177878
If you raise your desk a few inches and perch on a Humanscale Freedom Saddle stool (backless), it's actually pretty good for your back.  The raised height of the stool allows the thigh to torso angle to open up a bit and makes it a lot easier to balance upright without back support (but still takes a week or two to get used to using the stabilizer muscles which have atrophied from sitting in chairs).  You could get a kneeling chair and not have to raise your desk, but your knees will suffer and you lose some mobility.  I think the Humanscale mentioned is probably best with the medium height cylinder (slight upcharge).
These are good chairs under the right circumstances, but the problem with seating that's designed to shift weight bearing to your legs is that they aren't very flexible in that you can only sit in them one or two ways properly. Most people fatigue and need many ways of using their chairs to relieve pressure points and shift postural load to other muscle groups.

Quote from: treigle;177878
If I had to choose only 1 position, I'd definitely stand all day, but switching it up is even better.

Don't choose one posture if you can help it. Switching it up is better. Being in a standing position doesn't guarantee better posture or a healthier back. Regardless of if you're standing or sitting, your low back is bearing weight. All static postures are hard on the body.

Quote from: treigle;177878
Raise your desks, and think Diffriently!

I'll raise you one. The 3M keyboard tray I mentioned above is a sit to stand tray. I'm able to pull it out and raise the platform to a level high enough for me to type while standing. I have a 30" monitor so I'm able to get a comfortable viewing angle even though I'm standing.
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Offline treigle

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« Reply #9 on: Sun, 02 May 2010, 00:41:59 »
I should have put a smiley after the raise your desks bit.  

I didn't mean that we shouldn't use good supportive chairs, just that we should give our muscles a bit of use too.  Nor did I mean that you should never slouch, just that sitting up is much easier on a higher stool of some kind than at typical chair height.

When I stand, I shift my legs around, prop one up, bop and dance around (when no one's looking), am more inclined to walk around and do non-computer related things than if I had been sitting, and generally feel more alert.  I very much enjoy taking perching or sitting breaks also.

I don't have the article handy, but I recall a study in which it was found that even people who exercised regularly with reasonable intensity where still more likely to carry some extra body weight if they sat down for long stretches of the day, presumably having to do with a metabolic depression caused by (relative) inactivity.  This seems to match my personal experience.

Forcing yourself to maintain "proper" posture is, IMO, often more harmful than slouching a bit, and I totally agree about switching it up.

Nice keyboard tray by the way!
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Offline EverythingIBM

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« Reply #10 on: Sun, 02 May 2010, 02:56:28 »
I use mesh chairs:


They're so nice; especially allowing your spine to poke through the back.. ahhhhh...
Keyboards: '86 M, M5-2, M13, SSK, F AT, F XT

Offline ch_123

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« Reply #11 on: Sun, 02 May 2010, 09:37:06 »
I have a Humanscale Freedom chair; it's awesome.

Offline hyperlinked

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« Reply #12 on: Sun, 02 May 2010, 10:32:13 »
Quote from: treigle;178008
I should have put a smiley after the raise your desks bit.
It's not a bad idea though. It's just that there's no solution to the problems caused by prolonged static postures whether they're from sitting or standing.

They actually make a unique line of furniture that features a 3/4 stand stool chair in the middle of everything. It's pretty cool and it's an interesting concept, though I think it's limited in its application.

Quote from: treigle;178008
I didn't mean that we shouldn't use good supportive chairs, just that we should give our muscles a bit of use too.  Nor did I mean that you should never slouch, just that sitting up is much easier on a higher stool of some kind than at typical chair height.
Yep, not using your muscles is a huge no-no, but properly designed ergonomic chairs should actually encourage you to use your muscles when you can. Most ergnomic chairs these days are designed to allow you to sit at different points depending on how much support you want.

I have a Zody chair. It's a mesh backed chair with adjustable everything. No chair I've ever tested or owned conforms to your body as must as this chair, yet I only sit in a fully supported position part of the time. The chair's designed to be comfortable for you to sit at mid-point without any back support and also at the forward lip where you start to put weight into your legs.

The forward sitting position is actually one that you can do in any chair You don't need a kneeling, stool, or partial stand chair to accomplish this. Just scoot as far forward in a chair as you can without allowing your pevlic bones to lose solid contact with the seat, keep your back straight, and lean forward a little.

When I stand, I shift my legs around, prop one up, bop and dance around (when no one's looking), am more inclined to walk around and do non-computer related things than if I had been sitting, and generally feel more alert.  I very much enjoy taking perching or sitting breaks also.

Quote from: treigle;178008
I don't have the article handy, but I recall a study in which it was found that even people who exercised regularly with reasonable intensity where still more likely to carry some extra body weight if they sat down for long stretches of the day, presumably having to do with a metabolic depression caused by (relative) inactivity.  This seems to match my personal experience.
And I could be exhibit B on that myself. ;)

That's a bit different than saying that supported sitting results in significant atrophy of the muscles though. That article you ran into is just taking a logical conclusion one step further. It's pretty well accepted that in general if you do more rigorous activities, you burn more calories and therefore tend to weigh less. It's also believed that people who have lifestyles in which they burn more calories also tend to have a higher metabolism perhaps because their bodies are better tuned for more physical activity even at rest.

So yeah, do what you can to get more physical activity into your day, but you have to make sure it's practical or you won't do it for long. If it's easy for you to spend an hour or two standing every day, by all means do it. If it means using a ball chair a few times a week to work your trunk muscles while you're working, that's also a good idea.

[guilt]...as I type this, I'm realizing that I haven't done my ball chair switcheroo in a while.[/guilt]

Quote from: treigle;178008
Forcing yourself to maintain "proper" posture is, IMO, often more harmful than slouching a bit, and I totally agree about switching it up.
It shouldn't be, but in practical application you're probably close to the truth because very few people understand what proper posture is. To most people, sitting up straight means to keep your back arched as much as possible, which is bad.

Proper posture is also deceiving because it is sometimes painful, but mostly so because people have suffered atrophied postural muscles from slouching and keeping poor posture. That does two things. The loss of strength needs no explanation, but also by becoming stooped, you begin to develop tightness that increases the amount of work your postural muscles need to do to hold you up right. For someone who's gotten into this cycle of weakness and tightness, proper posture causes so much discomfort that it'll seem bad, but they need to work through it or the alternative is worse.

Quote from: treigle;178008
Nice keyboard tray by the way!

Thank you! Do you have a pic of your setup? I'll post mine as soon as I clean my desk this week. ;)
-

Topre: Realforce 103U Cherry: Filco Majestouch 104 (Brown), Ione Scorpius M10 (Blue)
Buckling Spring: IBM Model M1391401 ALPS: Apple Extended Keyboard II (Cream), ABS M1 (Fukka/Black), MicroConnectors Flavored USB (Black)
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Systems: MacPro, MacBook Pro, ASUS eeePC netbook, Dell D600 laptop, a small cluster of Linux Web servers
Displays: Apple Cinema Display 30", Apple Cinema Display 23"
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Offline hyperlinked

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« Reply #13 on: Sun, 02 May 2010, 10:41:06 »
Quote from: webwit;178120
No brand. I'm cheap.

So long as you have a good chair, the brand isn't all that meaningful of course, but I have consistently found that the brand names are usually superior over time. Almost any chair can be a good chair for one year. The kind of craftsmanship it takes to let a chair withstand daily loading is very rare in inexpensive chairs.

In the US, just about anything you can buy from a common office store is garbage just like most of the keyboards they sell.

Given the problems you've had with your hands, it really would be a smart investment for you to have a really dependable chair. If the one you have is already dependable, then there's no need to switch. I can't tell too much from the photo, but it doesn't look too bad.

There's one thing that jumps out that really could be better and it's the armrests. They don't look very adjustable or sturdy and if your main method of input is with your DataHand, you'd be better off with more adjustable armrests that you can move around a little to give you postural relief.
-

Topre: Realforce 103U Cherry: Filco Majestouch 104 (Brown), Ione Scorpius M10 (Blue)
Buckling Spring: IBM Model M1391401 ALPS: Apple Extended Keyboard II (Cream), ABS M1 (Fukka/Black), MicroConnectors Flavored USB (Black)
Domes: Matias Optimizer, Kensington ComfortType, Microsoft Internet Keyboard
Scissors: Apple Full Sized Aluminum
Pointy Stuff: Razer Imperator, Razer Copperhead, DT225 Trackball, Apple Magic Mouse, Logitech MX1000, Apple Mighty Mouse
Systems: MacPro, MacBook Pro, ASUS eeePC netbook, Dell D600 laptop, a small cluster of Linux Web servers
Displays: Apple Cinema Display 30", Apple Cinema Display 23"
Ergo Devices: Zody Chair, Nightingale CXO, Somaform, Theraball, 3M AKT180LE Keyboard Tray

Offline skcheng

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« Reply #14 on: Sun, 02 May 2010, 10:46:27 »
Quote from: YpoCaramel;172327
I don't know about the trays buddy, but I want their chairs.



The tray is awesome.  The chair is nice, but I think the Steelcase Leap V2 is even nicer.

Offline skcheng

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« Reply #15 on: Sun, 02 May 2010, 10:48:27 »
Quote from: ripster;177904
Well, if you REALLY want to think differently I have a custom leather Soundseat for guitar.

Not quite this Country.
Show Image


Awesome drum thrones.  Although I liked it better when they were all printed with Wideass like on the bottom of this one.

I use a Steelcase Leap for the computer though.
Show Image



Yup, the Steelcase Leap is the other chair that I own.   I like those so much that I replaced my Ethan Allen kitchen chairs with a set of V2s.   Awesome chair......a little expensive.

Offline skcheng

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« Reply #16 on: Sun, 02 May 2010, 10:53:42 »
Quote from: treigle;178008
I should have put a smiley after the raise your desks bit.  

I didn't mean that we shouldn't use good supportive chairs, just that we should give our muscles a bit of use too.  Nor did I mean that you should never slouch, just that sitting up is much easier on a higher stool of some kind than at typical chair height.

When I stand, I shift my legs around, prop one up, bop and dance around (when no one's looking), am more inclined to walk around and do non-computer related things than if I had been sitting, and generally feel more alert.  I very much enjoy taking perching or sitting breaks also.

I don't have the article handy, but I recall a study in which it was found that even people who exercised regularly with reasonable intensity where still more likely to carry some extra body weight if they sat down for long stretches of the day, presumably having to do with a metabolic depression caused by (relative) inactivity.  This seems to match my personal experience.

Forcing yourself to maintain "proper" posture is, IMO, often more harmful than slouching a bit, and I totally agree about switching it up.

Nice keyboard tray by the way!



I agree.   At my office, I use surgical operating stools with articulating arm rests for support and stability.   And sitting straight and peering into a microscope has done wonders for my back.  But then again, I think every dentist should work under a microscope.......another topic for another day.  

I move around a LOT.  It's when you're static for a LONG time that you start experiencing problems.  I have setups with different weighted handles of various shapes and thicknesses to help prevent carpule tunnel.  It works.  Ditto on the multiple mice/trackballs etc....

And the keyboard tray is awesome.  Height and front/back adjustable.   MUCH nicer than setting everything up on your desk and using the desk corner as a wrist rest.   I like the Humanscale keyboard tray mouse pad so much that I bought three more.   Well worth the money.

Offline skcheng

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« Reply #17 on: Sun, 02 May 2010, 10:56:03 »
Quote from: EverythingIBM;178029
I use mesh chairs:
Show Image


They're so nice; especially allowing your spine to poke through the back.. ahhhhh...



That's not a bad chair and I looked at the widely popular Herman Miller Aeron lineup.   But I found that I would feel the junction btwn the mesh and the border......especially under my legs and that it would become uncomfortable after a while.  

Sit in both a Herman Milller Aeron and then a Steelcase Leap or Humanscale Freedom and you'll know what I mean.

Offline hyperlinked

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« Reply #18 on: Sun, 02 May 2010, 11:12:50 »
Quote from: skcheng;178139
That's not a bad chair and I looked at the widely popular Herman Miller Aeron lineup.   But I found that I would feel the junction btwn the mesh and the border......especially under my legs and that it would become uncomfortable after a while.

I owned a fully loaded Aeron for a number of years and I'm not a fan of them. Considering that they made one of the most widely used ergonomic chairs in institutions (the Ergon 3), what they've come out with in recent years is really disappointing. BTW, these Leap chairs you love so much appear very similar to the Ergon 3's I'm talking about, but just more stylish and a little more adjustable.

Ever since their chairs started becoming more glamorous, they've lost something. The Aerons suffer badly from the problem of having few comfortable sitting points. You can sit all the way back or all the way forward and that's it. Everything else is uncomfortable because of the properties of the mesh. The other problem with the Aeron is that it's difficult to adjust. It's highly adjustable and that's usually a positive, but it's so hard to do so that you simply won't do it even when you need to.

This next point isn't really a bad thing against the Aeron, but it's something really funny that happens to all mesh bottom chairs. Ever check out the dust bunnies that gather underneath the mesh? I owned an Aeron chair for three years that was gathering dust there and one day I brought a strong fan in to cool off. The fan blew off this massive dust bunny that looked like a big clump of thick grey sod.

I didn't notice it come off until I left for an appointment and came back later to see a ginormous mass of something gross in front of my keyboard. I thought my wife was either mad at me or playing a joke. I couldn't figure out where it came from at first. Out of nowhere a biggest dust bunny I've ever seen is parked in my spot in front of the keyboard.
« Last Edit: Sun, 02 May 2010, 11:15:38 by hyperlinked »
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Topre: Realforce 103U Cherry: Filco Majestouch 104 (Brown), Ione Scorpius M10 (Blue)
Buckling Spring: IBM Model M1391401 ALPS: Apple Extended Keyboard II (Cream), ABS M1 (Fukka/Black), MicroConnectors Flavored USB (Black)
Domes: Matias Optimizer, Kensington ComfortType, Microsoft Internet Keyboard
Scissors: Apple Full Sized Aluminum
Pointy Stuff: Razer Imperator, Razer Copperhead, DT225 Trackball, Apple Magic Mouse, Logitech MX1000, Apple Mighty Mouse
Systems: MacPro, MacBook Pro, ASUS eeePC netbook, Dell D600 laptop, a small cluster of Linux Web servers
Displays: Apple Cinema Display 30", Apple Cinema Display 23"
Ergo Devices: Zody Chair, Nightingale CXO, Somaform, Theraball, 3M AKT180LE Keyboard Tray

Offline hyperlinked

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« Reply #19 on: Sun, 02 May 2010, 11:21:07 »
Here you guys go.... Silly chair of the day


It's a quarter stand chair with arm rests for hunters. The umbrella's so that birds can't **** on you while you try to blow them out of the air. ;)
« Last Edit: Sun, 02 May 2010, 11:53:58 by hyperlinked »
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Topre: Realforce 103U Cherry: Filco Majestouch 104 (Brown), Ione Scorpius M10 (Blue)
Buckling Spring: IBM Model M1391401 ALPS: Apple Extended Keyboard II (Cream), ABS M1 (Fukka/Black), MicroConnectors Flavored USB (Black)
Domes: Matias Optimizer, Kensington ComfortType, Microsoft Internet Keyboard
Scissors: Apple Full Sized Aluminum
Pointy Stuff: Razer Imperator, Razer Copperhead, DT225 Trackball, Apple Magic Mouse, Logitech MX1000, Apple Mighty Mouse
Systems: MacPro, MacBook Pro, ASUS eeePC netbook, Dell D600 laptop, a small cluster of Linux Web servers
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Offline kishy

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« Reply #20 on: Sun, 02 May 2010, 11:38:31 »
I think the umbrella is so birds CAN'T **** on you while you try to blow them out of the air...

So I'll have my song of the week in my sig, you can put your chair of the day in your sig, webwit can put his anti-Obama statement of the week in his, welly can put his blocked member of the week in his sig, ripster can put his "ebay listing I ruined for kishy" of the week in his...any more that I've missed?
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Offline hyperlinked

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« Reply #21 on: Sun, 02 May 2010, 11:55:07 »
Quote from: kishy;178155
I think the umbrella is so birds CAN'T **** on you while you try to blow them out of the air...


Errr, right! Corrected.
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Topre: Realforce 103U Cherry: Filco Majestouch 104 (Brown), Ione Scorpius M10 (Blue)
Buckling Spring: IBM Model M1391401 ALPS: Apple Extended Keyboard II (Cream), ABS M1 (Fukka/Black), MicroConnectors Flavored USB (Black)
Domes: Matias Optimizer, Kensington ComfortType, Microsoft Internet Keyboard
Scissors: Apple Full Sized Aluminum
Pointy Stuff: Razer Imperator, Razer Copperhead, DT225 Trackball, Apple Magic Mouse, Logitech MX1000, Apple Mighty Mouse
Systems: MacPro, MacBook Pro, ASUS eeePC netbook, Dell D600 laptop, a small cluster of Linux Web servers
Displays: Apple Cinema Display 30", Apple Cinema Display 23"
Ergo Devices: Zody Chair, Nightingale CXO, Somaform, Theraball, 3M AKT180LE Keyboard Tray

Offline Input Nirvana

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« Reply #22 on: Sun, 02 May 2010, 12:51:28 »
http://somaergo.com/content/chairs/somaform.shtml

Originally thinking this was going to have split keyboard mounted to the armrests. They have a chair order form where you build you entire chair. EVERYTHING is customizable. Every part has a choice.
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Offline hyperlinked

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« Reply #23 on: Sun, 02 May 2010, 14:11:29 »
Quote from: input nirvana;178167
http://somaergo.com/content/chairs/somaform.shtml

Originally thinking this was going to have split keyboard mounted to the armrests. They have a chair order form where you build you entire chair. EVERYTHING is customizable. Every part has a choice.


We have two Somaform high back chairs in our house. My wife has them. They're good  conventional office chairs with a lot of adjustability. The only thing I don't like about them is that the seat bed support is all foam based which is the case with all conventional office chairs. I prefer a chair that as a more sculpted seat bed that gets some shape from the seat frame itself so that even when the foam wears down, you still have something comfortable to sit in. This is why I like the Zody's so much. The padding is actually quite light, but I can sit over 12 hours in it and feel fine.
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Topre: Realforce 103U Cherry: Filco Majestouch 104 (Brown), Ione Scorpius M10 (Blue)
Buckling Spring: IBM Model M1391401 ALPS: Apple Extended Keyboard II (Cream), ABS M1 (Fukka/Black), MicroConnectors Flavored USB (Black)
Domes: Matias Optimizer, Kensington ComfortType, Microsoft Internet Keyboard
Scissors: Apple Full Sized Aluminum
Pointy Stuff: Razer Imperator, Razer Copperhead, DT225 Trackball, Apple Magic Mouse, Logitech MX1000, Apple Mighty Mouse
Systems: MacPro, MacBook Pro, ASUS eeePC netbook, Dell D600 laptop, a small cluster of Linux Web servers
Displays: Apple Cinema Display 30", Apple Cinema Display 23"
Ergo Devices: Zody Chair, Nightingale CXO, Somaform, Theraball, 3M AKT180LE Keyboard Tray

Offline Input Nirvana

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« Reply #24 on: Sun, 02 May 2010, 15:12:08 »
I've found that there is an overall 'fit' that helps your body type, personal preference, and lots of adjustability so it can be changed around.

It is true that it is far better (at least for men) to sit on a lightly padded hard surface as opposed to a super soft cushy seat for many hours at a time.

Also, the Somaform can be made with a latex seat with a cut-out. Ahhhh.  :)
Kinesis Advantage cut into 2 halves | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Colemak
Evil Screaming Flying Door Monkeys From Hell                     Proudly GeekWhacking since 2009
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Offline hyperlinked

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« Reply #25 on: Sun, 02 May 2010, 17:41:34 »
Quote from: input nirvana;178208
It is true that it is far better (at least for men) to sit on a lightly padded hard surface as opposed to a super soft cushy seat for many hours at a time.

Good question... I don't know if there tends to be a preference for a certain type of seat depending on if you're male or female.

Women have wider pelvises so they'll have more surface area to distribute their weight across so it could indeed make it more comfortable to have a more cushy chair, however it wouldn't change one very basic fact of physiology.

The human body can only bear prolonged weight in two places. The bottom part of your heels and the bony protruberances at the bottom of your pelvis. If you bear weight anywhere else for a long stretch of time, you will get injured. The skin will break down, you'll lose circulation, or your muscles will hurt. This is why they have to constantly flip people who are immobilized and why you develop bed sores if you're stuck in bed and can't move.

That you can only safely put prolonged weight through two parts of your body doesn't change whether you're a man or a woman, but I'd guess that anyone who has more rear mass could probably feel more comfortable in a cushy chair, but anyone should be able to feel at home in a properly sculpted chair if they practice good posture habits.
« Last Edit: Sun, 02 May 2010, 17:44:23 by hyperlinked »
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Topre: Realforce 103U Cherry: Filco Majestouch 104 (Brown), Ione Scorpius M10 (Blue)
Buckling Spring: IBM Model M1391401 ALPS: Apple Extended Keyboard II (Cream), ABS M1 (Fukka/Black), MicroConnectors Flavored USB (Black)
Domes: Matias Optimizer, Kensington ComfortType, Microsoft Internet Keyboard
Scissors: Apple Full Sized Aluminum
Pointy Stuff: Razer Imperator, Razer Copperhead, DT225 Trackball, Apple Magic Mouse, Logitech MX1000, Apple Mighty Mouse
Systems: MacPro, MacBook Pro, ASUS eeePC netbook, Dell D600 laptop, a small cluster of Linux Web servers
Displays: Apple Cinema Display 30", Apple Cinema Display 23"
Ergo Devices: Zody Chair, Nightingale CXO, Somaform, Theraball, 3M AKT180LE Keyboard Tray

Offline Input Nirvana

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« Reply #26 on: Sun, 02 May 2010, 18:45:26 »
Quote from: ripster;178248
Citation?
Show Image

Sitting, not reclining. :)

For men, compression of the prostate and surrounding tissues can lead to problems from cockpit-style seating for prolonged periods (all day) without movement (circulation issue). Better to let the bones take some of the pressure.

Dunno about chicks. I ain't one. :)
Kinesis Advantage cut into 2 halves | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Colemak
Evil Screaming Flying Door Monkeys From Hell                     Proudly GeekWhacking since 2009
Things change, things stay the same                                        Thanks much, Smallfry  
I AM THE REAPER . . . BECAUSE I KILL IT
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Offline didjamatic

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« Reply #27 on: Sun, 02 May 2010, 19:01:43 »
As someone with chronic neck and back pain that is expanibg through the rest of my body I usually have to rotate chairs a few times per day, but. Since getting a steelcase leap I've not had to do that, it's been great.  But there is no perfect chair.  I plan on getting a ball to sit on for a bit each day.  I'd love a tray like the humanscale but my desk is pretty low.
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Offline hyperlinked

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« Reply #28 on: Sun, 02 May 2010, 23:43:12 »
Well, here's my setup:


That's what the 3M keyboard tray looks like in a standing position. The 30" monitor is large enough that I still have a good viewing angle while standing without having to raise it. It's not the best viewing experience, but I'm sitting most of the time.
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Topre: Realforce 103U Cherry: Filco Majestouch 104 (Brown), Ione Scorpius M10 (Blue)
Buckling Spring: IBM Model M1391401 ALPS: Apple Extended Keyboard II (Cream), ABS M1 (Fukka/Black), MicroConnectors Flavored USB (Black)
Domes: Matias Optimizer, Kensington ComfortType, Microsoft Internet Keyboard
Scissors: Apple Full Sized Aluminum
Pointy Stuff: Razer Imperator, Razer Copperhead, DT225 Trackball, Apple Magic Mouse, Logitech MX1000, Apple Mighty Mouse
Systems: MacPro, MacBook Pro, ASUS eeePC netbook, Dell D600 laptop, a small cluster of Linux Web servers
Displays: Apple Cinema Display 30", Apple Cinema Display 23"
Ergo Devices: Zody Chair, Nightingale CXO, Somaform, Theraball, 3M AKT180LE Keyboard Tray

Offline treigle

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« Reply #29 on: Tue, 04 May 2010, 03:30:26 »
[Also posted to the Computer Setup thread]

Sorry for the delay hyperlinked....

OK, here's my sit-stand desk.  I only got this a few weeks ago, so it's a bit of a work in progress....  The table base is a Mayline Varitask (craigslist find), the top is from an office table I already had, and I added the casters to add some height (though I've found the mobility quite convenient).




With casters it goes from 28"-42.5" (26-40.5 without).

I've been meaning to write an article about standing and sit-stand workstations, alternative seating, etc, in which I'll explain in a bit better detail why I think higher seating (when backless) really does make a difference, and a bunch of other stuff.  It'll probably be several weeks before I get around to it.
« Last Edit: Fri, 07 May 2010, 01:21:12 by treigle »
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Offline skcheng

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« Reply #30 on: Sat, 08 May 2010, 11:59:46 »
Quote from: treigle;178720
[Also posted to the Computer Setup thread]

Sorry for the delay hyperlinked....

OK, here's my sit-stand desk.  I only got this a few weeks ago, so it's a bit of a work in progress....  The table base is a Mayline Varitask (craigslist find), the top is from an office table I already had, and I added the casters to add some height (though I've found the mobility quite convenient).

Show Image

Show Image


With casters it goes from 28"-42.5" (26-40.5 without).

I've been meaning to write an article about standing and sit-stand workstations, alternative seating, etc, in which I'll explain in a bit better detail why I think higher seating (when backless) really does make a difference, and a bunch of other stuff.  It'll probably be several weeks before I get around to it.



That's a nice setup.   I still think you would benefit from an adjustable keyboard tray/rotating mouse setup.   Much less stress on the neck/shoulders.  

And where is the Model M keyboard????   That should be front and center :)

Offline hyperlinked

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« Reply #31 on: Sat, 08 May 2010, 12:16:27 »
Quote from: skcheng;180190
I still think you would benefit from an adjustable keyboard tray/rotating mouse setup.   Much less stress on the neck/shoulders.


If the desk adjusts, it really makes the keyboard tray less of a necessity unless he needs a writing surface at the same time as he needs a typing surface. He has the monitor on a "riser" so that the screen is at a better  height even after accounting for the need to slightly shorten the table height for typing.
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Topre: Realforce 103U Cherry: Filco Majestouch 104 (Brown), Ione Scorpius M10 (Blue)
Buckling Spring: IBM Model M1391401 ALPS: Apple Extended Keyboard II (Cream), ABS M1 (Fukka/Black), MicroConnectors Flavored USB (Black)
Domes: Matias Optimizer, Kensington ComfortType, Microsoft Internet Keyboard
Scissors: Apple Full Sized Aluminum
Pointy Stuff: Razer Imperator, Razer Copperhead, DT225 Trackball, Apple Magic Mouse, Logitech MX1000, Apple Mighty Mouse
Systems: MacPro, MacBook Pro, ASUS eeePC netbook, Dell D600 laptop, a small cluster of Linux Web servers
Displays: Apple Cinema Display 30", Apple Cinema Display 23"
Ergo Devices: Zody Chair, Nightingale CXO, Somaform, Theraball, 3M AKT180LE Keyboard Tray

Offline skcheng

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« Reply #32 on: Sat, 08 May 2010, 12:43:37 »
Quote from: hyperlinked;180195
If the desk adjusts, it really makes the keyboard tray less of a necessity unless he needs a writing surface at the same time as he needs a typing surface. He has the monitor on a "riser" so that the screen is at a better  height even after accounting for the need to slightly shorten the table height for typing.


Well, yeah, but right now the edge of the table acts as a wrist pad.  Or a forearm pad.   I'd much rather have the keyboard in my lap and my shoulders in a completely relaxed position with my elbows supported.  

Much of this came from my work under a microscope for extended periods of time.   And not everyone can move from sitting to standing back to sitting.

Offline hyperlinked

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« Reply #33 on: Sat, 08 May 2010, 12:59:30 »
Quote from: skcheng;180210
Well, yeah, but right now the edge of the table acts as a wrist pad.  Or a forearm pad.   I'd much rather have the keyboard in my lap and my shoulders in a completely relaxed position with my elbows supported.  

Much of this came from my work under a microscope for extended periods of time.   And not everyone can move from sitting to standing back to sitting.

I used to evaluate people's workstations as part of what I did for a living.

If he wants a palm rest, he can get one, but you don't really need one of those if you have proper typing posture. For some people having anything that puts additional pressure on the wrists causes problems.

Working under a microscope is a completely different kind of situation than typing. Whatever you're doing under the microscope, you really need the additional motor precision that supports will give you and you're not going to be doing it for hours without a break. It changes the rules.

Elbow support for typing is also a questionable thing. Having full arm support while typing is not something you should  have all the time because to have a natural typing motion, you hands need to move. If your elbows or wrists are tacked down into place, you have to compensate to reach certain keys and with that compensation comes additional strain on joints that don't handle the stretch very well.

That said, I personally have elbow supports, but I only use them occasionally. I generally use it only for mouse control (when that extra motor precision counts) or when I've typed so much that my shoulders are getting tired and I start resting on my fingertips.
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Topre: Realforce 103U Cherry: Filco Majestouch 104 (Brown), Ione Scorpius M10 (Blue)
Buckling Spring: IBM Model M1391401 ALPS: Apple Extended Keyboard II (Cream), ABS M1 (Fukka/Black), MicroConnectors Flavored USB (Black)
Domes: Matias Optimizer, Kensington ComfortType, Microsoft Internet Keyboard
Scissors: Apple Full Sized Aluminum
Pointy Stuff: Razer Imperator, Razer Copperhead, DT225 Trackball, Apple Magic Mouse, Logitech MX1000, Apple Mighty Mouse
Systems: MacPro, MacBook Pro, ASUS eeePC netbook, Dell D600 laptop, a small cluster of Linux Web servers
Displays: Apple Cinema Display 30", Apple Cinema Display 23"
Ergo Devices: Zody Chair, Nightingale CXO, Somaform, Theraball, 3M AKT180LE Keyboard Tray

Offline treigle

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« Reply #34 on: Sat, 08 May 2010, 21:22:16 »
Frankly, a lot of what I do for ergonomics has to do with fighting my own bad habits.  For example, until very recently I would rest my wrists on the table *while* typing.  I now have the keyboard near the front to force myself to "hover" while typing.  I don't use the table as a pad at all....

I don't think I'll personally do the keyboard tray thing for the time being, since my table's surface goes just barely high enough for standing keyboard height, and an elevated tray would mess with my keyboard-monitor delta (monitor is only 19"),

I love M's, but often a narrow keyboard is more important to me than the keyswitches.  I'll do a mini review of this keyboard soon (SIIG Mini multimedia USB, rubber dome, not half bad for what it is....).

The (full ATX) desktop case was a ~3 month experiment, and I deliberated for quite a while about weather to go back to the Antec tower and free up the desk space, or keep the computer off the floor as it was....  I just put it back in the tower (and raised the monitor stand), and it'll probably stay there, but who knows, I'm kinda fickle sometimes.... ;)



You guys have definitely made me consider getter a better *sit-down* chair (I have an old low-end Steelcase now) sometime....  

And I definitely appreciate all the info and input.

FWIW, when I used to have very bad back problems, I found that bicycling (in a tucked, racing position) *really* strengthened my back muscles and helped in very short time.
« Last Edit: Sat, 08 May 2010, 21:26:13 by treigle »
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Offline hyperlinked

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« Reply #35 on: Sun, 09 May 2010, 00:25:26 »
Quote from: treigle;180292
Frankly, a lot of what I do for ergonomics has to do with fighting my own bad habits.  For example, until very recently I would rest my wrists on the table *while* typing.  I now have the keyboard near the front to force myself to "hover" while typing.  I don't use the table as a pad at all....

Just about anything is fine in moderation and if makes you more comfortable, break the rules once in a while... just (as you mentioned) don't make a habit of it. If you have no supports at all, you will start to lean on something or compensate when you start getting tired. You'll just lean or twist your way to relief in a way that's more harmful to your upper body.

Quote from: treigle;180292
I don't think I'll personally do the keyboard tray thing for the time being

Because your desk elevates, the only big advantage you might get from a keyboard try is if it had an elevated mouse platform so you could keep the mouse sightly higher which makes it a little easier to manipulate it. Since you use a trackball, it's less of a benefit.

Quote from: treigle;180292
I just put it back in the tower (and raised the monitor stand)

That is one hell of a telescoping stand! With a stand that'll do that, you're probably better without the ATX taking up all the space. It'll give you some room to slide the keyboard forward and give yourself some temporary forearm support if needed though it might be your eyes that'll take the worst end of that transaction. ;)

Quote from: treigle;180292
You guys have definitely made me consider getter a better *sit-down* chair (I have an old low-end Steelcase now) sometime....

I think that's a good idea especially if you have back problems... but if you aren't hurting anymore, don't change anything. It's very hard to recommend a perfect chair because there are a lot of factors that go into how a chair will feel to you. The shape of your body, the size of your legs, the presence of torque in your pelvis (very common), and any lingering back problems will all converge and make it very hard to find the perfect chair. I spent over $2000 on a series of chairs in the span of about 5 years before I finally found the one that's perfect for me.

If you decide to get a new chair, you should find a few models that seem right for you and find someplace where you can try them out for an extended period of time. I picked the chair I have now only after a local dealer allowed me to go spend an afternoon camped out in one of their conference rooms with my laptop. I really wanted to try it out in realistic conditions.

Even a test like this doesn't really tell you how well you'll take to the chair. It's often in the 8+ hour range of use when their chair will really become worth the money or a lackluster purchase. A lot of chairs also aren't as good after a year. Most chairs you can get in office stores have a useful lifespan of less than one year.

Quote from: treigle;180292
FWIW, when I used to have very bad back problems, I found that bicycling (in a tucked, racing position) *really* strengthened my back muscles and helped in very short time.

Good to hear! You probably got some good strengthening of your glutes and extensor muscles from the cycling. The crouching position itself isn't likely to be what fixed ya, but who knows? Exercise is good for backs... quickest way to a bad back is to get lazy.
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Topre: Realforce 103U Cherry: Filco Majestouch 104 (Brown), Ione Scorpius M10 (Blue)
Buckling Spring: IBM Model M1391401 ALPS: Apple Extended Keyboard II (Cream), ABS M1 (Fukka/Black), MicroConnectors Flavored USB (Black)
Domes: Matias Optimizer, Kensington ComfortType, Microsoft Internet Keyboard
Scissors: Apple Full Sized Aluminum
Pointy Stuff: Razer Imperator, Razer Copperhead, DT225 Trackball, Apple Magic Mouse, Logitech MX1000, Apple Mighty Mouse
Systems: MacPro, MacBook Pro, ASUS eeePC netbook, Dell D600 laptop, a small cluster of Linux Web servers
Displays: Apple Cinema Display 30", Apple Cinema Display 23"
Ergo Devices: Zody Chair, Nightingale CXO, Somaform, Theraball, 3M AKT180LE Keyboard Tray

Offline treigle

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« Reply #36 on: Sun, 09 May 2010, 17:48:05 »
Hyperlinked, I feel like I just got a professional ergonomics evaluation/consultation for free!

Thanks again!
Kinesis Advantage, Truly Ergonomic (ANSI), Filco 87