first purchase - key wear

[boaby]

Been lurking a couple of weeks now researching for my first mechanical purchase. Still weighing up playing (kinda) safe and getting the Blue Filco or risking the "meh" factor and getting the topre - different pro's and con's in either choice for myself. I need the numpad versions in either and if I went for the filco I'd be looking to blank out the keys. Just a few noobish questions (apologies in advance) to set me on my way...

- The standard lettered keys on the filco seem to have this issue where the coating wears off over time so replacing keys on a filco board is considered inevitable?

- Filco's own blank keys that they sell seperately don't have the aforementioned coating so don't go shiny over time right? Do they do a 105 peice (UK) set of this?

- Am I right in thinking it's common for filco owners to pick up cheap cherry boards and reuse these keycaps for replacing, dying etc?

- I was surprised at this shiny space bar on the topre considering it's 'supposedly' the leader of the pack. As far as I can tell replacement keys for the topre would be harder to come by so I'm wondering how prominent is the wear on this board?

- Lastly, I read in a few places on here that the HHKB is popular with programmers. I'm curious how programmers could work comfortably without the use of a numpad?

[Brodie337]

OK...

I have a blank Filco, and the keys are going shiny, after not alot of use. They arent coated, but it seems the fast wear is more a result of the texture of the plastic rather than the coating.

All keyboards are prone to wear on the keytops, it's just harder to see on some models, and some models are more resilient than others. For example, an IBM Model M has a very rough texture out of the box, and the beige goes a long way to hiding shiny keys.

I do know that EliteKeyboards sell 104 key sets of blank keytops, though I'm not sure about 105 key sets.

As for the HHKB, programmers and terminal nuts like it because they use the keyboard ALOT more than your average user, who is far mor mouse reliant. The HHKB is built around the concept of keeping your fingers on the home row, and this shows, with even the arrow keys being moved onto the main block. The lack of a numpad isn't really a problem, as most numbers in programming aren't that big, and are few and far between for the most part, making it faster to use the top row of numbers, rather than have to move your right hand to the numpad.

[AndrewZorn]

Wow, almost all of your questions are really touchy subjects around here.

[iMav]

I'm not a programmer, but I do a fair bit of coding.  I have never used the numpad...

If you like the numpad, then rejoice...you have more options then the rest of us.  

[boaby]

Ah fresh wiki on the subject matter, cheers ripster.

As a cis undergrad I'm in the same boat iMav. Just the thought of using calc on the num row gives me the willies.

Are whole replacement key sets even available for the topre?

[AndrewZorn]

I know they are for the HHKB, not sure about the Realforce.

[Rajagra]

Lots of things appear shiny when photographed using flash. I wonder if my black cat is still under warranty. Surely he can't sneak up on mice when he's reflecting so much light?

[Mental Hobbit]

- The standard lettered keys on the filco seem to have this issue where the coating wears off over time so replacing keys on a filco board is considered inevitable?

Replacing keys is not inevitable. You could also do the manly thing: Consider your keyboard a tool, take signs of wear with pride, and laugh at all the pussies here who go hysterical over some shiny keys.

[Rajagra]

Ah, I see. It's a key puller. Not a way of saying you cocked up.

[elbowglue]

Replacing keys is not inevitable. You could also do the manly thing: Consider your keyboard a tool, take signs of wear with pride, and laugh at all the pussies here who go hysterical over some shiny keys.

amen sister.

[boaby]

All good info. Will say a quick thanks to the contributors of this site for facilitating my ocd when it comes to purchases.

Looking into it more I'm leaning towards the filco. The topre while available in a 105key set is in a finnish layout - that argument might seem weird since I'm going for blank/understated keys but if im gonna spend around £190 on a keyboard and keep the decals (as faint as they are) it would be nice if the pound symbol et all where on the right keys. I'm only learning to touch type btw, with the filco i was planning on removing A-Z first and keeping the rest till i felt like removing them too. With the finish board i'd be looking at óáé etc when looking at my symbols.

I also like the customisation options available when using cherry caps.

I figure most of the patrons here have a wide selection of keyboards and probably wouldn't do this through choice BUT any comments on using the Blue Filco for a little fps? Force diagrams are interesting in that the release point is higher than the browns - with the blues do you have to completely release the key before you can actuate again? To be fair this is a secondary concern to typing but would be good to know.

[AndrewZorn]

It doesn't require a COMPLETE release, but yes, it is significant, and the reason I don't like my blue Filco for FPS.  It's fine for Starcraft 2, but not Team Fortress 2.

That being said, the Filco is most definitely the 'safe' answer.
If you want something more like Topre, the brown switches really are great.

[AndrewZorn]

BS is not as bad as Blue for the required release.
Then again I've only used my M13 for a second or two.

[AndrewZorn]

Your son could go pro if he used a Realforce.

[Ulysses31]

Just because the Filco is a great keyboard in most respects, doesn't mean excuses should be made for it in the few aspects it falls down.  You see this "soft" coating on loads of devices these days, and it feels great and looks nice, but does wear more rapidly, leading to a rather crappy appearance.  I don't think such a coating adds anything to your sensual typing experience, so why bother?  The keys would probably be cheaper to make and retain their looks for longer without it.  

As for being a "badge of honour" - well, you might get a greasy shiny oil-stained face after working under the car, but it's not a look that would win you many friends or any applause.  I don't care if keys get shiny over time, but they should be expected to retain a good appearance for longer than what people claim about the Filcos.  The irony is that every other aspect of keyboard design is a matter of great debate here, but keys are stepping over the line.

[bhtooefr]

Hey, when I play an FPS, I usually do it on my ThinkPad, scissor switch board, TrackPoint IV, and all.

[AndrewZorn]

If you DON'T coat it in any way you're asking for trouble.

So then the Topre engineers must be a group of real badasses...

[Ulysses31]

You don't need to coat the keys, really.  I have a twelve year old rubber dome logitech that still has perfectly legible symbols.  The keys are shiny but the letters are still there because whatever dye they used was inserted into a letter-shaped groove apparently.  If you need to coat the key at all i'd suggest you're doing it wrong .  Besides, as mentioned earlier it probably won't buy you more than an extra year of legibility anyway.  If they really cared about durability, they could use double-shots.  It looks to me like modern keyboards are for the most part made more cheaply nowadays, which may explain the greater concern over key-wear.  I'd still expect a fancy "Japanese" keyboard to have solved the problem with a little more finesse than simply coating the keys with a film though.  Hell, you might as well just put a keyboard glove over the whole thing and stop crumbs and dust getting in there too.

[Hand]

My kid stomps everyone in TF2 using a Buckling Spring keyboard.  All depends on how good you are.

I started keyboard shopping a few weeks ago, which led me to geekhack.  Shortly thereafter I noticed a "Ripster" playing on the SourceOP 2Fort server a couple times.  Am guessing that was you or son o' Ripster.  I almost asked "are you that geekhack guy," but shyness got the better of me.

Customizer w/buckling spring works great for me in TF2 (and Homeworld 2 and Starcraft 2).

[ch_123]

- Lastly, I read in a few places on here that the HHKB is popular with programmers. I'm curious how programmers could work comfortably without the use of a numpad?

Well, unless you're programming in machine code, I don't see why programmers would need a numpad...

[Rajagra]

On my first computer I added a Hex numpad so I could program in machine code. Assembler is for wimps.

[boaby]

Well, unless you're programming in machine code, I don't see why programmers would need a numpad...

I use calc alot and a fair amount of math modules. The thought of using the numrow for numbers and shifting for +* doesn't sit well with me. Having said that, if lowpoly gets his awesome miniboard out some time I'd defo pick one up. Ordered the blue filco in the end, just a shame they don't do the blanks in 105pc set so I'll see about blanking it out later.

Also ordered two of THESE since I've wanted a decent touchpad board for a while: one for a (mostly) headless machine and another for when I get handed a tower to troubleshoot. Can thankfully get rid of the crappy HP combo I've been using for those instances.

[boaby]

Hmmm, that's definately "shinning" as Grounds Keeper Willie would say. Did you take those shots of the key caps at 200x yourself ripster?

[ch_123]

For an assembly language the numpad is useless.

Nah, I mean machine code, not assembly... The joke here being that nobody actually writes in machine code.

I use calc alot and a fair amount of math modules. The thought of using the numrow for numbers and shifting for +* doesn't sit well with me. Having said that, if lowpoly gets his awesome miniboard out some time I'd defo pick one up. Ordered the blue filco in the end, just a shame they don't do the blanks in 105pc set so I'll see about blanking it out later.

That depends on what sort of programming you're in to... I guess when people say "programming", they're really getting at stuff like C, Java, Python etc... Either way, it's designed to be like a traditional UNIX keyboard.

[odyssomay]

Somehow a discussion involving ripster inevitably ends in an only keycaps discussion.



Familiar sight.

[odyssomay]

That's true.
I don't have time right now to search for threads where that wasn't the case,
but....I'll be back!!

:behindsofa:

[boaby]

The Microscope pics are taken with an old Intel USB kid's microscope.

Was half expecting you to say yeah but I wasn't expecting that. Nice.


Cool pics webwit. Anybody tried rit dyeing regular black-keys-with-white-lettering with black dye - to darken/grey out the hue of the lettering?

[clickclack]

...Cool pics webwit. Anybody tried rit dyeing regular black-keys-with-white-lettering with black dye - to darken/grey out the hue of the lettering?

I think someone else tried something like this back in the mods section.
I experimented with this along time ago but unless the key is double shot your chances much lower. The coating and or print they use for the keys is surprisingly chemical resistant (again unless double shot).

I had some nice red, yellow, orange, and purple letters on black keys =)

[boaby]

So I got my filco and decided to test all the keys for chatter. The dash on the numpad doesn't work :ohwell:  The click sounds fine, and tried different usb ports as if that would help, but the key remains resolutely dead.

Will need to wait till the morning to give them a call and see about a replacement but thought I'd ask here if there's any thing I can try without opening it up?

[washuai]

There is that Majestouch double shot thread if you really want to dye some white letters on black keys.    
Dead key is a shame.  Do you consider pulling the key off, opening it up?  Although that might not reveal anything.

[boaby]

What SW tester are you using...

notepad.exe

Yeah I popped the cap and had a fiddle to no avail. Spoke to the Keyboard Company today though and thankfully they've arranged for a new one to be sent out tomorrow and this faulty one will be picked up at the same time. I thought I'd have to send this one back then invoice them for the postage and wait for a new one, so pretty happy with their service.

[sixty]

Bumping this with some updated news. Remember the Chinese guy who wore off his Filco? Now a Korean did so too!



I guess after all it can happen after several years and the Filco coating is anything else but perfect. The board is quite filthy as is too, if you are brave enough there are a few more pics over at KBDMania.

[sixty]

The guy solved the problem like a man, Acetone + Sandpaper:



It will take a while for those keys to become shiny again.

[washuai]

The key wear pictures are disturbing.

THAT is the way to Man Up!

I'm starting to worry about Geekhack.  I'm seeing a LOT of lavender keys lately.

I told you that guy takes good care of his keyboards!

I'm more worried about your tie.  Actually, I'm more worried about the paisley, than the actual lavender.



There's a quote about pink, ok, lavender, not, somewhere, but people should be more secure and just wear what they want, color wise, keyboards included.



One would think that metallics or blue would be bigger WASD colors, given that ESC already stole red.