[IC] IRON160 by Smith + Rune (All info avail! Hotswap is now a kit option!)

[Techlet]

What would you call a user account that has only posted in this thread with criticism claiming they've had multiple manufacturing quotes (which says not new to this hobby or this platform at all), yet to afraid to post from their real account because they don't want to be seen as being trolls that have no interest in this other than stirring the pot?

Personally, I see no reason to make an account on a forum or post something unless I feel very strongly about a topic and want to speak up.

Perhaps they're trolls, perhaps they're not. Perhaps they just don't want to deal with the retaliation from the community S+R fosters around them. To dismiss them out of hand? I don't know about that.

[clik_clak]

I'm not sure much more can be said. We've been extremely consistent with our pricing. We've been asked for reasons why our pricing is the way it is and we've spoken at length about it.

There's no bait and switch and all the info is provided up front so everyone can make an informed buying decision. If you like the board and the price is good for you then you can purchase. If not, then there is plenty of other options out there.

We have plenty of people that do support us and want us to continue to make keyboards so we're going to continue to do just that. We'll continue to be transparent and answer questions as best as possible. If we've rubbed you the wrong way or you just don't like us for some reason and you don't want to support us that's okay too. We don't have to be everything to everyone.

I just hope you actually do work on your packaging. Getting not 1, but 2 broken PCB's in my Iron180 left a very sour taste in my mouth...and then the only response I got from Cannonkeys was "lol we'll do better next time". I'm not the only person this happened to as well.

If my Iron165 shows up in the same condition, that will the last S+R keyboard I buy. Fool me once, shame on me...Fool me twice, you're bad at your job.

Premium products should take all aspects of their boards into consideration, all the way down to the way they're shipped. Thinking that just stuffing 2 pcbs, 2 plates and the rest of the extras into a mesh compartment of the carrying case is just poor, stupid planning and a complete and total oversight. You guys lost a lot of your premium-ness to me when my 180 showed up.

[lbaron]

I'm not sure much more can be said. We've been extremely consistent with our pricing. We've been asked for reasons why our pricing is the way it is and we've spoken at length about it.

There's no bait and switch and all the info is provided up front so everyone can make an informed buying decision. If you like the board and the price is good for you then you can purchase. If not, then there is plenty of other options out there.

We have plenty of people that do support us and want us to continue to make keyboards so we're going to continue to do just that. We'll continue to be transparent and answer questions as best as possible. If we've rubbed you the wrong way or you just don't like us for some reason and you don't want to support us that's okay too. We don't have to be everything to everyone.

I just hope you actually do work on your packaging. Getting not 1, but 2 broken PCB's in my Iron180 left a very sour taste in my mouth...and then the only response I got from Cannonkeys was "lol we'll do better next time". I'm not the only person this happened to as well.

If my Iron165 shows up in the same condition, that will the last S+R keyboard I buy. Fool me once, shame on me...Fool me twice, you're bad at your job.

Premium products should take all aspects of their boards into consideration, all the way down to the way they're shipped. Thinking that just stuffing 2 pcbs, 2 plates and the rest of the extras into a mesh compartment of the carrying case is just poor, stupid planning and a complete and total oversight. You guys lost a lot of your premium-ness to me when my 180 showed up.

Yes, given the feedback on iron180 we did address the packaging for iron160 this time around.   We will have the hard zipper case that will hold the board, then a separate box above the zipper case that will hold the accessories and add-ons.  In the accessories box items will be individually bubble wrapped and sealed and any extra space with packing material.  All that will then ship in larger box. 

[Tunabelly]

it's funny how these new accounts were created just to spread ignorant hate and misinformation in this post.

I personally wont be getting one but still appreciate the boards that S&R produces

[bshendy]

Being as objective as possible here... 

I don't really see the reason for all the animosity, but at the same time, people have a right to question and discuss a topic since this is a forum after all.

Is this keyboard more expensive than a lot of other keyboards? Yes
Are there other keyboards that might be better than the 160 at a lesser price? Sure

But that line of questioning could apply to many other keyboards as well too.


My thoughts are this... It's not like Smith+Rune just wake up and start their day with thinking about how to screw people over and make their day bad. Someone will like this keyboard, and will pay the $500-$700 price for the 160.

My opinion? It's just a bit too overpriced for me while it's a good looking board, especially with the copper weight.

Feedback I hope S+R considers is simply making sure that the total value justifies the price of the keyboard. Since this is a 'group buy' keyboard, that means the extras price will easily eclipse $600 for full aluminum, and $800 for copper for a 60%... Other things to consider...

- Since there doesn't seem like there's a color limit or anything like that inside that 2000 MOQ figure, why can't we customize our order and choose what plate we want since it seems like you're making 160s to order specification to an extent already in regards to color and copper option?
- Why is an extra solder pcb the same price as a hotswap pcb? I imagine the price should be less for an extra solder pcb? And if the prices are supposed to be the same, why should I be forced to pay the same price for a solder pcb, when I could've gotten a hotswap pcb instead?
- Why was a color matched rune artisan keycap offered in the 180 and not the 160?
- Will the aluminum plate have the same anodization as the keyboard case I order?
- Why can't we choose between a solder and hotswap pcb when buying the keyboard
- So the full copper bottom doesn't include the copper accent weight...? Meaning you'll still have to buy the copper accent weight to have a "full copper bottom"? (and even then can you have the accent sandblasted instead of brushed so that it's consistent if that's the road you wish to go down?.... Going even further will the copper artisan keycap be sandblasted or brushed?)
- Why not just make the upgradeable copper bottom offered as an extra so people can have a more reasonable opportunity to have both a copper and aluminum bottom?
- Would there have been a difference in the premium for the alternate weight option if brass or stainless steel was offered instead of copper? Were the potential costs for each option shared in the IC?


I think that there has to be extra levels of detail in the groupbuy (and hopefully IC) at the very least when looking at the premium price tag of this keyboard.

[Mr_BeastQuake]

How many people criticizing pricing actually have first hand knowledge (not what you think is first hand but is actually second or third hand) of how much this should cost?

If you can provide that, maybe people would put more weight into your seemingly highly subjective and potentially uneducated opinion.

How are we supposed to know that? Please think before you speak, "first hand" knowledge is only accessible to S+R and their manufacturer, they won’t disclose it and that’s absolutely fine. All we know is some recent boards with features that are known to be more costly(weights, PVD) are priced way less than this. When someone questioned pricing in discord, Ibaron’s reply was "Just everything adds up. Getting custom screw, new zipper bag molds, CNC foam for them, prototyping, PCBs, photography, shipping, seamless design, increasing raw material costs, increasing labor, etc" So nothing out of ordinary to me it sounds, at least not some mysterious coating technology.

Maybe they are using 18k gold custom screws and award-winning photographers.

So you just another person guessing with no knowledge or experience. Just a keyboard and an internet connection. Let’s get this man a blog!

[anti_ge_jiu_cai]

How many people criticizing pricing actually have first hand knowledge (not what you think is first hand but is actually second or third hand) of how much this should cost?

If you can provide that, maybe people would put more weight into your seemingly highly subjective and potentially uneducated opinion.

How are we supposed to know that? Please think before you speak, "first hand" knowledge is only accessible to S+R and their manufacturer, they won’t disclose it and that’s absolutely fine. All we know is some recent boards with features that are known to be more costly(weights, PVD) are priced way less than this. When someone questioned pricing in discord, Ibaron’s reply was "Just everything adds up. Getting custom screw, new zipper bag molds, CNC foam for them, prototyping, PCBs, photography, shipping, seamless design, increasing raw material costs, increasing labor, etc" So nothing out of ordinary to me it sounds, at least not some mysterious coating technology.

Maybe they are using 18k gold custom screws and award-winning photographers.

So you just another person guessing with no knowledge or experience. Just a keyboard and an internet connection. Let’s get this man a blog!

We are estimating from other comparable boards and that's the best we can do to see if the price is justifiable. Based on your logic, S+R can make the 160 $3k and it's justifiable to you as long as the "first hand" information on the cost is missing. What a guy willingly to get played for suckers.

[dRnRcRr]

How many people criticizing pricing actually have first hand knowledge (not what you think is first hand but is actually second or third hand) of how much this should cost?

If you can provide that, maybe people would put more weight into your seemingly highly subjective and potentially uneducated opinion.

How are we supposed to know that? Please think before you speak, "first hand" knowledge is only accessible to S+R and their manufacturer, they won’t disclose it and that’s absolutely fine. All we know is some recent boards with features that are known to be more costly(weights, PVD) are priced way less than this. When someone questioned pricing in discord, Ibaron’s reply was "Just everything adds up. Getting custom screw, new zipper bag molds, CNC foam for them, prototyping, PCBs, photography, shipping, seamless design, increasing raw material costs, increasing labor, etc" So nothing out of ordinary to me it sounds, at least not some mysterious coating technology.

Maybe they are using 18k gold custom screws and award-winning photographers.

So you just another person guessing with no knowledge or experience. Just a keyboard and an internet connection. Let’s get this man a blog!

We are estimating from other comparable boards and that's the best we can do to see if the price is justifiable. Based on your logic, S+R can make the 160 $3k and it's justifiable to you as long as the "first hand" information on the cost is missing. What a guy willingly to get played for suckers.

Your logic is not sound. I think its fine to inquire about the price. I think its fine not to want the board. All these questions are healthy conversation. But now you're just throwing speculation and random numbers out.

Lots of other great boards out there. Maybe there's one better suited for you. That's the great thing about this hobby, lots of options.

[altaing]

In the end these boards are *luxury* items and don’t need to be accessible to everyone. Think designers brands.

[kajahtaa]

All these crybabies have me interested in joining.

What's the WKL backstory?

[Capsy]

Funny how you'd respect people who don't like the price but call the ones who like it as being part of an echo chamber, no? If it sells, it sells. You can be bitter about it.

Having seen what goes on in their discord and how their members respond to any sort of criticism on S+R's behalf, I find it hard to call it anything other than an echo chamber.

When someone questioned pricing in discord, Ibaron’s reply was "Just everything adds up. Getting custom screw, new zipper bag molds, CNC foam for them, prototyping, PCBs, photography, shipping, seamless design, increasing raw material costs, increasing labor, etc"

Or more recently, "I just ignore it. New accounts created just to spread hate for something they have zero interest in buying."

Tells you all you really need to know about how they view the community.

Funny because that literally every discord server ever.

[orange waste]

In the end these boards are *luxury* items and don’t need to be accessible to everyone. Think designers brands.

Theres literally nothing "luxury" about this board other than its preposterous price tag. These boards aren't machined in-house, they're literally made in the same factories as other reasonably priced boards. I don't know of any high-end designers that use the same Chinese sweatshops where fast fashion brands are made.

The 160 is just a cash grab in my opinion.

[Visionaire]

In the end these boards are *luxury* items and don’t need to be accessible to everyone. Think designers brands.

Theres literally nothing "luxury" about this board other than its preposterous price tag. These boards aren't machined in-house, they're literally made in the same factories as other reasonably priced boards. I don't know of any high-end designers that use the same Chinese sweatshops where fast fashion brands are made.

The 160 is just a cash grab in my opinion.

S+R is a business like any other... making a product and pricing it at the point where they feel is best for their business and consumers. It's no more of a cash grab than any other product on the shelf. Don't like it, vote with your wallet. If they don't sell the units, they'll know its overpriced. Somehow, I get the feeling that won't be the situation though...

[bigdonnerz]

More of a meta point but I don't really understand this idea that price should be something that is immune to criticism or discussion. I've seen a lot of people in this thread saying that if you dont like the price you should ignore this and move on, but I think that's ignoring the context the product is being offered in.

This is primarily an enthusiast hobby, which means the people potentially purchasing this are far more likely to care about more objective(-ish) measures of value when considering the price of a product compared to most consumers. This is also being produced/sold via a group buy, which again affects how the price is evaluated. If you're taking people's money up front to produce something, I think it's natural for there to be more scrutiny over the price. It's also being promoted on a public forum, so again that will generate discussion about the board, including its price. Drawing comparisons to things like clothes doesnt work for this reason imo.

Designers are free to charge what they want but if this is the medium you want to offer a product through, I think it's reasonable, and healthy, for there to be discussion around price. If a designer isn't interested in that discussion then this might not be the place for them to garner interest for a product. The alternative is people just comment something like "GLWIC" and call it day. I don't really see the value in that and think it would probably lead to lots of boards being more expensive than they would be otherwise. Personally, this is not the direction I'd like to see the hobby go in.

I also think this feedback can be at least somewhat useful. I'm sure designers of all high-end boards that are posted here get at least some people complaining about the price and a lot of it is probably unconstructive, but if you're seeing a lot of people objecting compared to normal then that seems like useful information. Maybe it's not enough to warrant changes but still seems good to know. At a minimum, it could suggest that the value is not being communicated well enough in the IC. It's also very useful information to have as a potential buyer.

Regarding the board itself – personally, I think this it's very expensive. I don't think you need to be a logistics expert to identify that, as there's many similar boards to this offered a lower price point - and it's not just designers who own their own factory like Geon. It can be difficult to form a perfect apples to apples comparison with anything in this hobby but I don't think that should be a blocker to discussions. Obviously we don't have a full cost breakdown to make a completely informed assessment but I really don't think that's a reasonable standard to expect in order to call something expensive and I'm sure most designers would understandably not be comfortable revealing that information.

I like a lot of the S+R design aesthetic and their emphasis on boards with low front heights but at this price I wouldnt purchase this. I might have it if was less expensive. I'm sure there will also be quite a lot people who aren't put off by the price.

[nick779]

I'm honestly second guessing my initial thoughts on this board after visiting the add-ons and overall cost. I really like the design, but am not sure if I see "high end value" with it's "high end" cost...

I went in on the CW60 last year. It was a much more complex board, 5? pieces, includes a brass+SS weight and is being made by DDS for the same base price with a lower unit cap.

[hyppialonso]

More of a meta point but I don't really understand this idea that price should be something that is immune to criticism or discussion. I've seen a lot of people in this thread saying that if you dont like the price you should ignore this and move on, but I think that's ignoring the context the product is being offered in.

This is primarily an enthusiast hobby, which means the people potentially purchasing this are far more likely to care about more objective(-ish) measures of value when considering the price of a product compared to most consumers. This is also being produced/sold via a group buy, which again affects how the price is evaluated. If you're taking people's money up front to produce something, I think it's natural for there to be more scrutiny over the price. It's also being promoted on a public forum, so again that will generate discussion about the board, including its price. Drawing comparisons to things like clothes doesnt work for this reason imo.

Designers are free to charge what they want but if this is the medium you want to offer a product through, I think it's reasonable, and healthy, for there to be discussion around price. If a designer isn't interested in that discussion then this might not be the place for them to garner interest for a product. The alternative is people just comment something like "GLWIC" and call it day. I don't really see the value in that and think it would probably lead to lots of boards being more expensive than they would be otherwise. Personally, this is not the direction I'd like to see the hobby go in.

I also think this feedback can be at least somewhat useful. I'm sure designers of all high-end boards that are posted here get at least some people complaining about the price and a lot of it is probably unconstructive, but if you're seeing a lot of people objecting than normal then that seems like useful information. Maybe it's not enough to warrant changes but still seems good to know. At a minimum, it could suggest that the value is not being communicated well enough in the IC. It's also very useful information to have as a potential buyer.

Regarding the board itself – personally, I think this it's very expensive. I don't think you need to be a logistics expert to identify that, as there's many similar boards to this offered a lower price point - and it's not just designers who own their own factory like Geon. It can be difficult to form a perfect apples to apples comparison with anything in this hobby but I don't think that should be a blocker to discussions. Obviously we don't have a full cost breakdown to make a completely informed assessment but I really don't think that's a reasonable standard to expect in order to call something expensive and I'm sure most designers would understandably not be comfortable revealing that information.

I like a lot of the S+R design aesthetic and their emphasis on boards with low front heights but at this price I wouldnt purchase this. I might have it if was less expensive. I'm sure there will also be quite a lot people who aren't put off by the price.

Very well said, I do agree heavily on the point that people/designer should not see the complaint on overpricing as toxic/hate. For me at least, I won't bother to leave a comment for some boards that I am not interested in. While some people think the new accounts/inactive accounts suddenly pop up and leave comments are just for hateful comment, I think they pop up because they really want to get the board so they surface from the sea to express their disappointment, which is understandable regardless whether their complaints are evident or not.

For me, I want the board because of its appearance but won't buy it since it is too expensive. I do want them to cut the price down though it is not likely to happen. Would be interested to know the cost of the high price tag of course if designer is willing to share. But obviously even with sound explanation, people like me who think it is too expensive still won't buy it while other aims to buy will still buy it, maybe that is also one of the reasons why they don't want to reveal because it doesn't change much actually, I totally understand that if I put my foot into the shoes of them.

[boneandbee]

More of a meta point but I don't really understand this idea that price should be something that is immune to criticism or discussion. I've seen a lot of people in this thread saying that if you dont like the price you should ignore this and move on, but I think that's ignoring the context the product is being offered in.

This is primarily an enthusiast hobby, which means the people potentially purchasing this are far more likely to care about more objective(-ish) measures of value when considering the price of a product compared to most consumers. This is also being produced/sold via a group buy, which again affects how the price is evaluated. If you're taking people's money up front to produce something, I think it's natural for there to be more scrutiny over the price. It's also being promoted on a public forum, so again that will generate discussion about the board, including its price. Drawing comparisons to things like clothes doesnt work for this reason imo.

Designers are free to charge what they want but if this is the medium you want to offer a product through, I think it's reasonable, and healthy, for there to be discussion around price. If a designer isn't interested in that discussion then this might not be the place for them to garner interest for a product. The alternative is people just comment something like "GLWIC" and call it day. I don't really see the value in that and think it would probably lead to lots of boards being more expensive than they would be otherwise. Personally, this is not the direction I'd like to see the hobby go in.

I also think this feedback can be at least somewhat useful. I'm sure designers of all high-end boards that are posted here get at least some people complaining about the price and a lot of it is probably unconstructive, but if you're seeing a lot of people objecting than normal then that seems like useful information. Maybe it's not enough to warrant changes but still seems good to know. At a minimum, it could suggest that the value is not being communicated well enough in the IC. It's also very useful information to have as a potential buyer.

Regarding the board itself – personally, I think this it's very expensive. I don't think you need to be a logistics expert to identify that, as there's many similar boards to this offered a lower price point - and it's not just designers who own their own factory like Geon. It can be difficult to form a perfect apples to apples comparison with anything in this hobby but I don't think that should be a blocker to discussions. Obviously we don't have a full cost breakdown to make a completely informed assessment but I really don't think that's a reasonable standard to expect in order to call something expensive and I'm sure most designers would understandably not be comfortable revealing that information.

I like a lot of the S+R design aesthetic and their emphasis on boards with low front heights but at this price I wouldnt purchase this. I might have it if was less expensive. I'm sure there will also be quite a lot people who aren't put off by the price.

The issue here isn't that of not wanting constructive criticism or feedback - that's clear by the fact that all changes they make to the boards are due to feedback from the community. Constructive criticism is always welcome - it helps the company grow and make better and better boards. The issue is the toxic brand-bashing - there are several accounts here created solely to come on and attack the character of the owners and mission of the company. That's not ok. Personal attacks shouldn't ever be warranted. This is a luxury hobby, after all. There seems to be a lot of unjustified toxicity from a few members.

Without showing the specific breakdown of all costs involved, S+R have been pretty transparent about pricing. It's unfortunate that costs are what they are these days, but they can't control materials, labor, shipping, fuel, etc.  I'm not sure how the other companies everyone keeps citing about having better pricing is able to do that, but it's possible they won't be able to continue doing so for long.
And yes, you can absolutely object to pricing and that may help shape future projects. But if the process on a project is too far down the road (which this is) and a company says the pricing can't be budged it doesn't help to keep comparing them to different companies with very different circumstances. There's lots of stuff from small businesses, independent artists, and luxury companies I personally would love to own but can't afford, so I don't buy it. And I also don't harass the small business's owners about it or attack them for it or try to haggle them down on price. As an artist myself I have spent a lot of time dealing with consumers attempting to shame me for my pricing (which has never been high) because they feel entitled to something they would pay from a larger company with massive sway in parts and labor.

So yes, all this to say the constructive criticism is welcome, but the hostility is not!

[bigdonnerz]

The issue here isn't that of not wanting constructive criticism or feedback - that's clear by the fact that all changes they make to the boards are due to feedback from the community. Constructive criticism is always welcome - it helps the company grow and make better and better boards. The issue is the toxic brand-bashing - there are several accounts here created solely to come on and attack the character of the owners and mission of the company. That's not ok. Personal attacks shouldn't ever be warranted. This is a luxury hobby, after all. There seems to be a lot of unjustified toxicity from a few members.

Sure, not all the price discussion has been 100% constructive but I also don't think it can all be simply dismissed as 'toxic brand-bashing'. I've seen a good amount of comments made in earnest.

Without showing the specific breakdown of all costs involved, S+R have been pretty transparent about pricing. It's unfortunate that costs are what they are these days, but they can't control materials, labor, shipping, fuel, etc.  I'm not sure how the other companies everyone keeps citing about having better pricing is able to do that, but it's possible they won't be able to continue doing so for long.

This seems like an overly generous take on the situation. The price of this board is quite an outlier for a 60%. I don't think it's fair to imply that the only reason other boards are cheaper is because the designers are running at a loss.

And yes, you can absolutely object to pricing and that may help shape future projects. But if the process on a project is too far down the road (which this is) and a company says the pricing can't be budged it doesn't help to keep comparing them to different companies with very different circumstances.

This is entirely within the designers control. People were asking for pricing details as soon as this IC was posted (myself included). Just because the pricing was only released a week and half before the GB doesnt mean that it should be exempt from criticism. If this was the case, designers could just withhold the pricing details to avoid discussion.

It also says in the opening post that pricing isn't final:

Interest Check Disclaimer

Keep in mind this is an interest check. Nothing, including options, pricing, etc, is final until the GB starts.

There's lots of stuff from small businesses, independent artists, and luxury companies I personally would love to own but can't afford, so I don't buy it.

Like I said, I'm sure those products are being produced and sold in a very different way to something like this. The nature of producing things via GBs on public forums will always lead more discussion on things like price compared to other products.

[clik_clak]

I'm not sure much more can be said. We've been extremely consistent with our pricing. We've been asked for reasons why our pricing is the way it is and we've spoken at length about it.

There's no bait and switch and all the info is provided up front so everyone can make an informed buying decision. If you like the board and the price is good for you then you can purchase. If not, then there is plenty of other options out there.

We have plenty of people that do support us and want us to continue to make keyboards so we're going to continue to do just that. We'll continue to be transparent and answer questions as best as possible. If we've rubbed you the wrong way or you just don't like us for some reason and you don't want to support us that's okay too. We don't have to be everything to everyone.

I just hope you actually do work on your packaging. Getting not 1, but 2 broken PCB's in my Iron180 left a very sour taste in my mouth...and then the only response I got from Cannonkeys was "lol we'll do better next time". I'm not the only person this happened to as well.

If my Iron165 shows up in the same condition, that will the last S+R keyboard I buy. Fool me once, shame on me...Fool me twice, you're bad at your job.

Premium products should take all aspects of their boards into consideration, all the way down to the way they're shipped. Thinking that just stuffing 2 pcbs, 2 plates and the rest of the extras into a mesh compartment of the carrying case is just poor, stupid planning and a complete and total oversight. You guys lost a lot of your premium-ness to me when my 180 showed up.

Yes, given the feedback on iron180 we did address the packaging for iron160 this time around.   We will have the hard zipper case that will hold the board, then a separate box above the zipper case that will hold the accessories and add-ons.  In the accessories box items will be individually bubble wrapped and sealed and any extra space with packing material.  All that will then ship in larger box.

Not to get too off topic, but what about the 165's coming from Cannonkeys? If they're shipped the same way as the 180, I don't want to buy a 160.

[SDKCAMPING]

Without showing the specific breakdown of all costs involved, S+R have been pretty transparent about pricing. It's unfortunate that costs are what they are these days, but they can't control materials, labor, shipping, fuel, etc.  I'm not sure how the other companies everyone keeps citing about having better pricing is able to do that, but it's possible they won't be able to continue doing so for long.

well the thing is that other designers are also using the same factory that usually has high costs, but their boards are either a lower price, or have something that justifies the price. I would guess that this board is not actually having profit margins much higher than other keyboards, but my issue is that the design does not really justify the price. literally anyone can make this kind of design with a few days of practice on CAD.

countless people have called out the price being too high for a 60% but there are many 60% boards that are sold at a similar price point that do not really get as much flak because they usually use more exotic material.

I'm honestly second guessing my initial thoughts on this board after visiting the add-ons and overall cost. I really like the design, but am not sure if I see "high end value" with it's "high end" cost...

I went in on the CW60 last year. It was a much more complex board, 5? pieces, includes a brass+SS weight and is being made by DDS for the same base price with a lower unit cap.

you are right but CW did not go through a vendor. regardless of unit cap i don't think anyone really knows the MOQ for the iron160, everyone keeps saying 2000 for no reason. i would not rule out that the MOQ is something much much lower like 500.



in the end, it really does not matter if price is inflated from the factory being expensive, working with vendor, a lower than expected MOQ, margins, because it is seamless, or anything else. the problem is that the end product is not as attractive as other options around the same price and i think a designer should try to consider that. if we cannot get alower price because of the other factors, then please make the product better in some way! otherwise the only thing left is the brand. anyway the keyboard community has many good options  nowadays especially with so many 60% boards this year so buy what you want.

[CookieFlow]

More of a meta point but I don't really understand this idea that price should be something that is immune to criticism or discussion. I've seen a lot of people in this thread saying that if you dont like the price you should ignore this and move on, but I think that's ignoring the context the product is being offered in.

This is primarily an enthusiast hobby, which means the people potentially purchasing this are far more likely to care about more objective(-ish) measures of value when considering the price of a product compared to most consumers. This is also being produced/sold via a group buy, which again affects how the price is evaluated. If you're taking people's money up front to produce something, I think it's natural for there to be more scrutiny over the price. It's also being promoted on a public forum, so again that will generate discussion about the board, including its price. Drawing comparisons to things like clothes doesnt work for this reason imo.

Designers are free to charge what they want but if this is the medium you want to offer a product through, I think it's reasonable, and healthy, for there to be discussion around price. If a designer isn't interested in that discussion then this might not be the place for them to garner interest for a product. The alternative is people just comment something like "GLWIC" and call it day. I don't really see the value in that and think it would probably lead to lots of boards being more expensive than they would be otherwise. Personally, this is not the direction I'd like to see the hobby go in.

I also think this feedback can be at least somewhat useful. I'm sure designers of all high-end boards that are posted here get at least some people complaining about the price and a lot of it is probably unconstructive, but if you're seeing a lot of people objecting compared to normal then that seems like useful information. Maybe it's not enough to warrant changes but still seems good to know. At a minimum, it could suggest that the value is not being communicated well enough in the IC. It's also very useful information to have as a potential buyer.

Regarding the board itself – personally, I think this it's very expensive. I don't think you need to be a logistics expert to identify that, as there's many similar boards to this offered a lower price point - and it's not just designers who own their own factory like Geon. It can be difficult to form a perfect apples to apples comparison with anything in this hobby but I don't think that should be a blocker to discussions. Obviously we don't have a full cost breakdown to make a completely informed assessment but I really don't think that's a reasonable standard to expect in order to call something expensive and I'm sure most designers would understandably not be comfortable revealing that information.

I like a lot of the S+R design aesthetic and their emphasis on boards with low front heights but at this price I wouldnt purchase this. I might have it if was less expensive. I'm sure there will also be quite a lot people who aren't put off by the price.

I don't think that the price should be immune to criticism, but when there are 2 entire pages of people complaining about the price, with a lot of newly created accounts just for that purpose, I am not sure we need another 2 pages of the same thing.
And in the same way that people can complain about the price, people can also defend the price.

As others have said it is a "luxury" hobby, most people already have several boards, and don't need another one. And even if they don't have one, nobody "needs" a 500€+ board (or a 5th, 10th ... board)
It's purely a luxury, and pricing with luxury items doesn't always need to make sense.

Would it be nice if it costed 50 or 80$ less? Sure, but if you are already ready to spend 500-600+ with extra pcb etc, I don't think a 10% difference should be a deal breaker for all these people that say they are now no longer interested because of the price reveal, unless they were expecting the board to cost sub 350$ to begin with.

I agree it's not a good value board, but not every board should be designed with that focus in mind.
There are many other boards out there and coming, and some will focus on different things.

[upas]

I'm not sure much more can be said. We've been extremely consistent with our pricing. We've been asked for reasons why our pricing is the way it is and we've spoken at length about it.

There's no bait and switch and all the info is provided up front so everyone can make an informed buying decision. If you like the board and the price is good for you then you can purchase. If not, then there is plenty of other options out there.

We have plenty of people that do support us and want us to continue to make keyboards so we're going to continue to do just that. We'll continue to be transparent and answer questions as best as possible. If we've rubbed you the wrong way or you just don't like us for some reason and you don't want to support us that's okay too. We don't have to be everything to everyone.

I just hope you actually do work on your packaging. Getting not 1, but 2 broken PCB's in my Iron180 left a very sour taste in my mouth...and then the only response I got from Cannonkeys was "lol we'll do better next time". I'm not the only person this happened to as well.

If my Iron165 shows up in the same condition, that will the last S+R keyboard I buy. Fool me once, shame on me...Fool me twice, you're bad at your job.

Premium products should take all aspects of their boards into consideration, all the way down to the way they're shipped. Thinking that just stuffing 2 pcbs, 2 plates and the rest of the extras into a mesh compartment of the carrying case is just poor, stupid planning and a complete and total oversight. You guys lost a lot of your premium-ness to me when my 180 showed up.

Yes, given the feedback on iron180 we did address the packaging for iron160 this time around.   We will have the hard zipper case that will hold the board, then a separate box above the zipper case that will hold the accessories and add-ons.  In the accessories box items will be individually bubble wrapped and sealed and any extra space with packing material.  All that will then ship in larger box.

Not to get too off topic, but what about the 165's coming from Cannonkeys? If they're shipped the same way as the 180, I don't want to buy a 160.

While we don't have customized boxes for extras, we will be packing 165 differently from the 180. The last thing we want is for anything to get damaged in shipping.

[clik_clak]

I'm not sure much more can be said. We've been extremely consistent with our pricing. We've been asked for reasons why our pricing is the way it is and we've spoken at length about it.

There's no bait and switch and all the info is provided up front so everyone can make an informed buying decision. If you like the board and the price is good for you then you can purchase. If not, then there is plenty of other options out there.

We have plenty of people that do support us and want us to continue to make keyboards so we're going to continue to do just that. We'll continue to be transparent and answer questions as best as possible. If we've rubbed you the wrong way or you just don't like us for some reason and you don't want to support us that's okay too. We don't have to be everything to everyone.

I just hope you actually do work on your packaging. Getting not 1, but 2 broken PCB's in my Iron180 left a very sour taste in my mouth...and then the only response I got from Cannonkeys was "lol we'll do better next time". I'm not the only person this happened to as well.

If my Iron165 shows up in the same condition, that will the last S+R keyboard I buy. Fool me once, shame on me...Fool me twice, you're bad at your job.

Premium products should take all aspects of their boards into consideration, all the way down to the way they're shipped. Thinking that just stuffing 2 pcbs, 2 plates and the rest of the extras into a mesh compartment of the carrying case is just poor, stupid planning and a complete and total oversight. You guys lost a lot of your premium-ness to me when my 180 showed up.

Yes, given the feedback on iron180 we did address the packaging for iron160 this time around.   We will have the hard zipper case that will hold the board, then a separate box above the zipper case that will hold the accessories and add-ons.  In the accessories box items will be individually bubble wrapped and sealed and any extra space with packing material.  All that will then ship in larger box.

Not to get too off topic, but what about the 165's coming from Cannonkeys? If they're shipped the same way as the 180, I don't want to buy a 160.

While we don't have customized boxes for extras, we will be packing 165 differently from the 180. The last thing we want is for anything to get damaged in shipping.

That's a strange thing to say after the way you not only shipped the 180's, but how you handled the items that were damaged because of the way you packed the items in the first place (ie. laughing at damaged items while just writing it off like it was no big deal).

Kinda hard to learn a lesson when you just laugh off the issue in the first place.

[BobRoss2025]

Glwic

[bigdonnerz]

I don't think that the price should be immune to criticism, but when there are 2 entire pages of people complaining about the price, with a lot of newly created accounts just for that purpose, I am not sure we need another 2 pages of the same thing.
And in the same way that people can complain about the price, people can also defend the price.

Why though? S+R is a big brand that a lot of people are interested in beyond Geekhack. If someone is interested enough to make an account to comment here then who cares. Also, like I said if you're seeing lots of people taking issue with the price vs 1 or 2 people, that seems like a strong signal that something has gone awry with pricing. People are free to defend the price but a lot of commenters are making it clear they just don't think the price should be discussed at all.

As others have said it is a "luxury" hobby, most people already have several boards, and don't need another one. And even if they don't have one, nobody "needs" a 500€+ board (or a 5th, 10th ... board)
It's purely a luxury, and pricing with luxury items doesn't always need to make sense.

Nah I disagree, for plenty of people this would be a board they've aspired to own and maybe it's their 2nd or 3rd but it could be a big jump in price for them vs previous boards they've owned. People with 5+ boards are really not the majority of this hobby and if you've got that many boards you're probably not as likely to be interested in something like this.

Would it be nice if it costed 50 or 80$ less? Sure, but if you are already ready to spend 500-600+ with extra pcb etc, I don't think a 10% difference should be a deal breaker for all these people that say they are now no longer interested because of the price reveal, unless they were expecting the board to cost sub 350$ to begin with.

I disagree again. This just seems like an attitude that will lead to boards being needlessly expensive. Where should we draw the line then? Why not price it $200 more, if someone is already ready to spend 500-600+? I feel like I shouldn't have to say this but $80 is quite a lot of money! People's ability to afford that will vary and that should be respected. I think it's legitimate for that amount to be the difference between being able to afford this vs not. Especially when the price is being revealed so close to the GB.

I agree it's not a good value board, but not every board should be designed with that focus in mind.
There are many other boards out there and coming, and some will focus on different things.

Personally, I think we should strive to keep the cost of boards as close to the cost to produce + sell it as we can, otherwise we'll just see more boards that are very expensive without good reasons. If you don't care about that, then cool I guess, but the amount of discussions over the price here indicates that not everyone feels that way.

To be clear, it's absolutely fine to make something high end, and there's lots of examples of boards that are expensive and still good value, but if you're not striving to make something that's good value at your target price point, then I think it's completely understandable for people to call that out in a context like this.

[Gondolindrim]

Meanwhile Gondo buttclenching so hard right now hoping no one complains about the PCB pricing

[JHelsing]

lmao, why is there a war here?

anyways I'll probably consider if the colors are nice but the fact that the 180 didn't turn out as expected and changes were made without any communication leaves me to be a bit more cautious here.

Also, insert obligatory price oof comment here.

GLWIC

[ic33hot]

Meanwhile Gondo buttclenching so hard right now hoping no one complains about the PCB pricing

I believe PCB's fall under inelastic demand.  )

[Baka Bot]

Meanwhile Gondo buttclenching so hard right now hoping no one complains about the PCB pricing

Thanks for reminding everyone

[kaworu]

I was genuinely interested before the price tag was revealed. Filled out the IC forms etc. GLWIC.

[Koniotaur]

GLWIC, just like a person above. Was interested as a elegant and not so complex looking keyboard but pricing is way above what I expected. Hearing all kinds of issues with fullfilment of 180 doesn't make consider me making a stretch to at least try to get it. It is what it is...

[yangsiyin]

looking at the force-analysing graph, that's called science.......

[voxkey]

Updates - April 28th, 2022

• Pricing and sale formats has been updated for ALL regions.
• Hotswap can now be chosen as on option with the kit. No need to purchase it separately. This decision was largely based on feedback from you, the community.
• Necessary info has been added to the supported layouts section regarding plate and PCB options.

[mr_foggy]

I was pretty keen on buying it as I can afford it no problem and I admit I really like S+R designs, but the conceited way complaints were dismissed (or laughed off by the simp squad) was really, really questionable and I don't feel like rewarding it with my money.

also I won't be naming names but a few recent 60% with far more intricate designs were priced significantly lower, if not almost half the price.
same goes for some higher end 60s with a significantly lower moq. 2000 unit cap is not even "exclusive" enough to justify that pricing.

[BasedCoper]

I was pretty keen on buying it as I can afford it no problem and I admit I really like S+R designs, but the conceited way complaints were dismissed (or laughed off by the simp squad) was really, really questionable and I don't feel like rewarding it with my money.

also I won't be naming names but a few recent 60% with far more intricate designs were priced significantly lower, if not almost half the price.
same goes for some higher end 60s with a significantly lower moq. 2000 unit cap is not even "exclusive" enough to justify that pricing.

They have a VERY comfortable margin on their designs, which is fine, you're allowed to make a decent bit of money on your boards, but S&R doesn't have the reputation of Keycult where their QC is perfect S&R has a history of, to be quite frank, messing up big time with WKL Blockers and instead of admitting they were in the wrong, chose to justify it as a "design choice" retroactively. I am fine with people making their money, this hobby isn't about value anyway, but if you don't have the customer service to back it up, then what makes you think you can charge that much?

[SDKCAMPING]

I was pretty keen on buying it as I can afford it no problem and I admit I really like S+R designs, but the conceited way complaints were dismissed (or laughed off by the simp squad) was really, really questionable and I don't feel like rewarding it with my money.

also I won't be naming names but a few recent 60% with far more intricate designs were priced significantly lower, if not almost half the price.
same goes for some higher end 60s with a significantly lower moq. 2000 unit cap is not even "exclusive" enough to justify that pricing.

I think a lot of people came in here and made a lot of stupid points to push back on the high price tag like guessing an unknown MOQ number, margins, and similar. But your comment is basically what should have been said, it says all that needs to be said clearly and gets the message across very well. Anyway the sale is live and the price is not changed, so it is really just better for everyone to move on from the topic completely.

[kronograf]

The 180 blockers weren't exactly popular as I'm sure many of you know. The feedback we received ranged from neutral to don't care to very negative with very few opinions falling into the positive category. Definitely not where we'd like it to be, so we completely changed our approach to blockers. We thought a redesign was more appropriate, one more in line with what the community wants to see from us.

This is significantly more contrite - and more of an admission of an actual issue - than it was in the discord, where it got trivialized by rednames from the get-go and anyone who brought it up got dogpiled into oblivion by folks anxious to protect their investment in the brand. Good that you fixed it, but it was a problem entirely self-created in the first place.

I was pretty keen on buying it as I can afford it no problem and I admit I really like S+R designs, but the conceited way complaints were dismissed (or laughed off by the simp squad) was really, really questionable and I don't feel like rewarding it with my money.

Well, I don't think you're alone.

It's funny how there hasn't been a GB thread made for this yet. Was the feedback too negative?