Author Topic: Help choosing gaming keyboard.  (Read 4202 times)

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Offline Dred

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Help choosing gaming keyboard.
« on: Tue, 14 September 2010, 01:39:33 »
Well i found this forum reading up on the blackwidow keyboard. The last day or so i been reading a ton of threads on here to find out what all the differences are in these mechanical based keyboards. So i have a few questions hope someone here could answer them.

I have a Saitek Eclipse 2 frankly i am sick of it.. and don't really care about lights i have a bright monitor so lights just seem pointless. I been checking reviews all over and i think i just want a mechanical with Nkey rollover.

So reading threads here it seems these Cherry mx switches are the best or most popular on here. So a few questions on this series.

1. It sounds like Cherry MX red switches are the best for gaming due to the fact that they have very low G? 35G or something? Frankly i am little lost on this G rating It sounds like its measuring the force it takes for the button to register? the lower it is the faster it registers your keypress or depress?

2. Cherry MX red are very rare and hard to get unless you order from that guy on ebay for $172 which i don't want to do. So the next best cherry switch would be the Cherry MX brown for gaming?

3. While i don't mind the keyboard clicky noise i don't want it overly loud. I heard the red and brown switches are some of the quieter ones which is good. I have a desk mic and i think my mic would pick up the clicks. =(

4. I notice that MX blue and black are popular even tho they are 60G to 80G or something.  Why is this? Does the higher G ratings make typing better for fast typers? =P

5. What are the advantages of other mechanical keyboards? I see people paying $100 for a model M but i don't know why. Sure its a good mechanical keyboard but what advantages does it have over the newer machanical keyboards? Any benefits being used as a gamer keyboard?

Hope this doesn't give anyone a headache. =P I will check the wiki forum some more to see if i can grasp the G ratings better.

Thanks

Offline alec

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Help choosing gaming keyboard.
« Reply #1 on: Tue, 14 September 2010, 04:17:51 »
To get things clear for myself: is there ANY advantage in mechanical keyboards for gaming?
Noppoo Choc Mini

Offline victheslik

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Help choosing gaming keyboard.
« Reply #2 on: Tue, 14 September 2010, 04:31:28 »
-
« Last Edit: Sun, 26 November 2023, 22:19:10 by victheslik »
"The only antidote to mental suffering is physical pain. " Karl Marx
A wiseman once said, "If Bible proves the existence of God, then comic books prove the existence of Superheros."

Offline Arc'xer

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Help choosing gaming keyboard.
« Reply #3 on: Tue, 14 September 2010, 04:33:58 »
Quote from: Dred;223065
1. It sounds like Cherry MX red switches are the best for gaming due to the fact that they have very low G? 35G or something? Frankly i am little lost on this G rating It sounds like its measuring the force it takes for the button to register? the lower it is the faster it registers your keypress or depress?

No one has said their the best the difference is they are linear. And unlike the mx blacks being 40g start, 60g actuation, and 80g bottoming out plus having a short-thick spring. Reds are almost brown area around 35-45-60.

Notice the thickness and difference of mxB vs the others

Light linear. Linears are mentioned for gaming because tactility is ignored and just interrupts as in the blues with the actuating point and release point at different areas.

Browns are recommended a lot because they can feel linear but provide tactility when desired and fairly light. MX black is hard to recommend due to the sheer resistance of the switch.

G = grams(cN centiNewtons).

Quote from: Dred;223065
While i don't mind the keyboard clicky noise i don't want it overly loud. I heard the red and brown switches are some of the quieter ones which is good. I have a desk mic and i think my mic would pick up the clicks. =(

Clicks are hard to describe without being in person most audio expands sounds not normally heard or amplify the noise. Plus it depends on the person if you bottom out, you make more noise. But if you learn to type based on the tactile feedback and not bottom out then the noise is reduced. Audio clips on this site and around the internet help but it's one of those in person thing. People have said that others can pick up noise from typing over voice comms but it's nothing they found particularly annoying, but it also depends on audio equipment and quality of said equipment.

Yeah browns are quieter, no deliberate noise mechanism all noise is from use or bottoming out.

Quote from: Dred;223065
4. I notice that MX blue and black are popular even tho they are 60G to 80G or something.  Why is this? Does the higher G ratings make typing better for fast typers? =P

No blues are around 50g, while mx black are 60g. The big difference is one momentarily rises in force all the way up to 50g. Provide a tactile feedback with a click. Blues are popular due to their medium resistance,  tactile feedback, the obvious click, and the fact it's the most distinct and different switch compared to a standard membrane dome so it has a fun factor albeit for serious gaming it can cause some issues due to the fact you need to fully or almost fully depress because the actuation and release points are far apart. And the individualist clicks being annoying in a quite setting.

But non-the less they are light years ahead of membrane domes.

Just like the mx black people may not like to type on them because they are so resistive but are far better than what most buy.

The mx black on the other hand are linear-progressive, linear; a straight or almost straight line and progressive; subtly rising in force with no tactility just straight down. These are popular because they feel very smooth, very quiet due to lack of key chatter though bottoming out can be a different story, are resistive to accidental key presses and have a very almost dead center deadzone. But they can be very fatiguing and tiresome for typing or even gaming as it is a heavy switch.

No, higher force doesn't translate to faster typing. It's dependent on the person some people like higher force, some like a lot of tactility etc.etc. Though I'm sure there comes a point were something is too light or too heavy that it interferes with typing.

Quote from: Dred;223065
5. What are the advantages of other mechanical keyboards? I see people paying $100 for a model M but i don't know why. Sure its a good mechanical keyboard but what advantages does it have over the newer mechanical keyboards? Any benefits being used as a gamer keyboard?

No way a Model M sells for that typically. You probably ran into a specific rarity of the buckling spring keyboards or the guy is trying to be slick. Most are probably well below 40 dollars, but if you encounter rares ones they can easily reach 300-400.

Buckling spring is not mechanical it's a whole different technology.

Unfortunately the term "mechanical" has fallen into two categories. An umbrella general term and a "mech = old, noisy technology". Not all switches fall into a single category.

People like buckling spring because despite their heavy feel. Have very strong, sharp tactility, are built like tanks some weighing in at 3-4 pounds, have high-quality double-shot molded keycaps or dye sublimated and even 25+ years still work with a small adapter in cases of incompatibility.
« Last Edit: Tue, 14 September 2010, 04:40:35 by Arc'xer »

Offline WhiteRice

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Help choosing gaming keyboard.
« Reply #4 on: Tue, 14 September 2010, 09:33:20 »
Quote from: Dred;223065
Well i found this forum reading up on the blackwidow keyboard.



Offline panda-R

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Help choosing gaming keyboard.
« Reply #5 on: Tue, 14 September 2010, 09:49:24 »
Quote from: ripster;223143
100 grams (mass) is 0.98 newtons (force) on Earth.

Don't they teach Physics anymore in college??

P.S.  In Australia you have to add a negative symbol to the equation.


does the negativity in all physics equations in australia also contribute to their toilet water flushing in the opposite direction?
DO YOU FEEL THE BEAT? I DO.
One Keyboard to DOOM them all, REALFORCE.

Offline Phaedrus2129

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Help choosing gaming keyboard.
« Reply #6 on: Tue, 14 September 2010, 09:55:21 »
Quote from: ripster;223155
I think a LOT of people are going to find Geekhack because of the Black Widow.

Marketing from PFU, Topre, Filco, Cherry Corp (don't get me started on Cherry Corp) ALL suck.


Does Cherry corp have a marketing division? Or did they all die a long time ago?

Daily Driver: Noppoo Choc Mini
Currently own: IBM Model M 1391401 1988,  XArmor U9 prototype
Previously owned: Ricercar SPOS, IBM M13 92G7461 1994, XArmor U9BL, XArmor U9W prototype, Cherry G80-8200LPDUS, Cherry G84-4100, Compaq MX-11800, Chicony KB-5181 (SMK Monterey), Reveal KB-7061, Cirque Wave Keyboard (ergonomic rubber domes), NMB RT101 (rubber dome), Dell AT101W

Offline Dred

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Help choosing gaming keyboard.
« Reply #7 on: Tue, 14 September 2010, 12:50:50 »
So the key advantages of RED MX swtiches for gaming are the actuating and release key points? Also that fact that its a light switch and not too stiff as maybe a black switch?

This makes it better than all keyboards for gaming if your trying to get an edge in competition?

I am sure the differences are small for most gamers but i just like having cutting edge. Also it seems everyone has lost sight of what a good keyboard is. Now a days its ooo what kind of lights does it have and does it have a built soundcard or lcd screen? I never bought these keyboards just thought they were over the top.

Anyway glad i found this forum the amount of detail everyone goes into talking about the little differences has definitely got me thinking about what keyboard i want as a replacement.

I notice the cherry red listed on Ebay shows a usb to ps2 adapter. Will this still achieve full NKEY rollover? I read while usb to ps2 adapters work some people have said they are not 100% guaranteed to get the NKEY rollover working perfectly..

I would love to check out RED MX switches but i a live in northern California.  I do know a few co-workers that make regular trips to Taiwan. I was thinking if i can find a store that sells a RED MX keyboard i can get him to pick one up. Although finding a RED MX keyboard would be hard in Taiwan i think.

Thanks

Offline ricercar

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Help choosing gaming keyboard.
« Reply #8 on: Tue, 14 September 2010, 13:07:31 »
key advantages of RED MX swtiches [sic] for gaming is
  • lack of tactile feedback combined with weak spring.
  • In the west, however, people want them because they're rare, not for their mechanical characteristics.
I trolled Geekhack and all I got was an eponymous SPOS.

Offline itlnstln

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Help choosing gaming keyboard.
« Reply #9 on: Tue, 14 September 2010, 13:08:24 »
Key advantage?  Very punny.


Offline ricercar

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Help choosing gaming keyboard.
« Reply #10 on: Tue, 14 September 2010, 13:09:09 »
The pun is the lowest form of bakery.
I trolled Geekhack and all I got was an eponymous SPOS.

Offline washuai

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Help choosing gaming keyboard.
« Reply #11 on: Tue, 14 September 2010, 18:10:40 »
They're just protecting those 20% of purchase price broker/buyer fee profits.
⌨(home)Realforce 87U ⌨(backup) Filco Majestouch 104 Brown ⌨(backup)Cherry G80-8200LPDUS ⌨(work)Leopold FC200RT/AB
☛CST L-Trac-X ☛Logitech Wireless Optical Trackman ☛ Razer 3500 dpi ☛MS Explorer DeathAdder

Lay-a-bouts:  ⌨Full 109 Key Virtually Indestructable  Keyboard ⌨Compaq Radio Quack GYUR84SK
Wishlist: ⌨KBDmania Pure ⌨Déck 82 ice/frost/toxic/royal ⌨Ricercar spos G86-62410EUAGSA ☠ ✞⌨miniGuru(s) ☠
 ✐Intuos or Cintiq

Offline Nadger

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Help choosing gaming keyboard.
« Reply #12 on: Tue, 14 September 2010, 18:55:59 »
Reds are going to be the very lightest because they are linear and actuate at 45G of force.  Browns actuate at 45g of force as well but they have a 55g tactile point.  So that means you need to apply 55gs of force into a keypress in order for it to go down far enough to send the signal.

Reds to me, sound like a mess of accidental key presses waiting to happen.

The soft tacticles, white/clear and brown are good for gaming as well....its just the blues you might run into jamming with if you dont let the key return all the way up before pressing it again (MMORPGs, RTS where there is a lot of key spam)

Some people when using blacks for the first time seem to complain that they feel mushy and not nice to type on, and complain about finger fatigue.

Everyones hands are very very different so its hard to read what others say and decide whats best for you.
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Offline lmnop

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Help choosing gaming keyboard.
« Reply #13 on: Wed, 15 September 2010, 00:10:44 »
there is a seller on eBay from Hong Kong selling the G80-3494 worldwide for $177.

he seems to be steady slinging them. 2 weeks ago his sell history was 8. a member from here bought one.
« Last Edit: Wed, 15 September 2010, 00:20:33 by lmnop »

Offline lmnop

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Help choosing gaming keyboard.
« Reply #14 on: Wed, 15 September 2010, 00:20:46 »
there is a seller on eBay from Hong Kong selling the G80-3494 worldwide for $177.

he seems to be steady slinging them. 2 weeks ago his sell history was 8. a member from here bought one.

Offline lmnop

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Help choosing gaming keyboard.
« Reply #15 on: Wed, 15 September 2010, 00:30:53 »
does he up the shipping to make it look like a more lucrative opportunity?


Offline Senor_Cartmenez

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Help choosing gaming keyboard.
« Reply #16 on: Wed, 15 September 2010, 03:47:31 »
Quote from: ripster;223499
Lol - Razer Deathadders from same seller are $9 but $40 shipping.

But if you ignore the way he prices them I guess the Red Cherrys are not all that cheap in China either.  Just  wish they were DoubleShots and then I would have bought one.


I will give you the product for free, because I'm nice like that y'know? Just shipping will be 49$ unfortunately. But that's the ****ing postal service...
We'ze gotz a dealz?



Grrrreat!
Heeeey, Pacooo! Make a note, next week you go around the corner to the Miller's house and drop a Razer DeathAdder in their mailbox. Wear your UPS uniform too. And take a bicycle wit u!

Offline Dred

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Help choosing gaming keyboard.
« Reply #17 on: Wed, 15 September 2010, 18:00:43 »
Quote from: ripster;223499
Lol - Razer Deathadders from same seller are $9 but $40 shipping.

But if you ignore the way he prices them I guess the Red Cherrys are not all that cheap in China either.  Just  wish they were DoubleShots and then I would have bought one.


True but why not just replace the keys with doubleshots? I thought most people here mod there keyboards anyway. Unless you like to collect them as factory original.

Offline Nadger

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Help choosing gaming keyboard.
« Reply #18 on: Wed, 15 September 2010, 20:20:32 »
Quote from: ripster;223499
Lol - Razer Deathadders from same seller are $9 but $40 shipping.

But if you ignore the way he prices them I guess the Red Cherrys are not all that cheap in China either.  Just  wish they were DoubleShots and then I would have bought one.

I dont quite understand doubleshots.  What makes them so nice?  Is it just to prevent keycap labels from being rubbed off or what exactly does it do for you?
● Logitech ♦ G600
● Noppoo ♦ Choc Mini 茶轴
● Plum ♦ 96 White / Red Switch
● Microsoft ♦ Xbox 360 Windows Controller

Offline Arc'xer

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Help choosing gaming keyboard.
« Reply #19 on: Wed, 15 September 2010, 20:32:08 »
Quote from: Nadger;223790
I dont quite understand doubleshots.  What makes them so nice?  Is it just to prevent keycap labels from being rubbed off or what exactly does it do for you?

That; plus doubleshot key caps are generally thicker, heavier, and have better feel from different higher quality plastics like ABS, PBT, or POM.

There's also dye sublimation which provides an almost equally sharp contrast but the main difference is instead of being an ink embedded. Doubleshot is an individual plastic mold into the letter itself in some cases being almost a second key cap with the connection.

All about keys

Offline DryDry

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Help choosing gaming keyboard.
« Reply #20 on: Mon, 20 September 2010, 03:36:28 »
nobody could be make the decision instead of you
I am not tall,not handsome,but a little bad……

Offline RSA27

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Go with Brown
« Reply #21 on: Mon, 20 September 2010, 12:51:19 »
I just got my Filco tenkeyless with browns...and Wow..

I game a good bit, type a bit, and even though I've only had the keyboard for 3 days.... Wow.

Best keyboard I've ever used, and I have no reason to change to anything else at this point.
I have a model M and model F... and to be honest I'm not really crazy about buckling springs...but then i'm not really a superstar typist..only about 60-70 wpm.  

Browns are much lighter, much more consistent than domes, the filco board feels very well made, and it just looks cool. :)
One thing that is taking me a bit of getting used to is how small a tenkeyless is.  I have never had a keyboard this small before..it feels a tad weird.  I have a large CRT that sits in front of the keyboard, and it just DWARFS it.

While gaming, you really don't notice the tactile bump much at all.  I wear a headset, and usually game to music, so I really don't hear it either.  

I can't imagine cherry reds could add much of anything to the experience, I can keyspam just fine on the browns.  I haven't been able to find much of any benefit to a key any lighter, or going with straight linear.

Just get the filco brown and be done with it.  Order the blue WSAD kit as well.
It seems the W A and D keys sit higher up than the other keys (S seems to be flush) which I actually rather like.  Helps in TF2/COD4 or any other fps game.

Offline itlnstln

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Help choosing gaming keyboard.
« Reply #22 on: Mon, 20 September 2010, 13:02:56 »
Glad you like it.  Cherry browns are absolutely fantastic.


Offline RSA27

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Help choosing gaming keyboard.
« Reply #23 on: Mon, 20 September 2010, 13:44:58 »
Well, its not just the size of the cap, if the seating hole is more shallow they would sit higher as well.  I have pushed them down as far as I could comfortably, and it seems like the W A and D all sit the same height, which is slightly higher than the other keys.  I'll try to take pics later.

Offline RSA27

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Help choosing gaming keyboard.
« Reply #24 on: Mon, 20 September 2010, 15:04:28 »
I don't think its an illusion, but make your own judgements. :)


IMAG0181

IMAG0185

IMAG0184

I've taken the caps off numerous times, checked to make sure there is nothing inside the hole.. put them back on.. They always end up sitting like this.
I did note that elitekeyboards just got a new batch of these in - they were out of stock before the sept 10th shipment came in.  Maybe this new batch has this as a 'feature'.  I know the Cherry wNv gaming board has a raised W..and this keyset is usually bought by gamers.  Maybe they decided to copy it...who knows.  

Or maybe I just got a couple of ****ed up keys. :)
« Last Edit: Mon, 20 September 2010, 15:10:12 by RSA27 »