Plz help me narrow my choices

[Surly73]

Hello geekhack.  First time poster but I've done a fair amount of reading.  Like many, I'm looking for "the" keyboard for me - or at least something close.  I know this will get a little rambling...

I'll start by saying that I'm in Canada.  Retail options are limited or non-existent and importing can be really expensive depending on who is doing the shipping.  I simply can't afford to buy everything out there and just keep what I like and there's absolutely nowhere that I can go and tap on mechanical keyboards in a store and see what I like.  My friends and family already think I'm a weirdo for getting so "in to" the difference and nuance of all the keyboards out there.

I've been a computer user for a long time and I've always noticed there were keyboards I really liked and others I hated but I never dissected what was going on.  I've spent a lot of the last 15 years or so using Microsoft Natural keyboards.  I have no specific RSI problems but I found that some of the past models had a pretty reasonable feel, while other seemingly identical models felt like crap.  It really cheeses me off when keys "stick" if not pressed perfectly straight down.

Now comes the rise of the mechanical keyboard and I finally decided to start seriously paying attention and get myself a great keyboard.  But what to get?   I don't need lots of noise but I want a tactile bump.  At home I do a mix of casual gaming and typing.  At work it's hardcore typing, although I'm not a programmer.

After lots of reading I thought I wanted Cherry browns. Tactile bump, no click.  I tried a co-worker's Kinesis ergo board which has MX browns.  I found the key effort very light and I blew through any "tactile bump" that might be present.  Granted I didn't give myself an adjustment period but that's my initial impression.  I thought about getting a Das with browns from NCIX but read just enough frustration with Das that I decided to get a Filco w/ browns from EK but that's exactly when they went permanently out of stock last fall.

I have a Cherry compact mobile data terminal keyboard with old (possibly pre-MX series?) linear black switches.  I'm accurate and fast on this mini keyboard, but the bottoming makes a horrible clacking sound.  I understand this could be the case with any Cherrys, but with my typing style the noise is significant.  Retraining may change that.  Part of me even thinks about linear but even heavier than blacks.  I've never tried a full sized linear cherry board.

I found an IBM Model M, mint, stashed in my basement.  It is of 1391401 ilk but not quite (that's a separate thread - a lot of the indicators to identify just what you have are in conflict).  It suits my often heavy typing style but I can't use it at home because of the noise.  When on another floor all the way across the house my wife says it sounds like I'm downstairs crumpling wrapping paper when I'm typing.  I would probably disturb our kids when they're sleeping too so it went to the office.  No one there has killed me yet but I did the "dental floss" mod to tone it down a little.  I could do with less noise, especially the key return "toing".

I don't know how much of my issue is that the model M suits my heavy typing style, or whether the model M is perpetuating my heavy style.  I can often type very fast and quiet on some laptop models despite being polar opposite to a model M, but on some I'm just clumsy.  I've been unable to determine why some laptop keyboards work great for me and others are terrible.   I found a Logitech Illuminated scissor switch keyboard for half price which I'm using at home for the time being.  It's silent and "mechanical" but still leaves a lot to be desired (slightly odd layout, keys are too flat, etc...).

Everyone calls the Topres the king of keyboards, but I don't know that I want to spend $300 or more (once I get it imported to Canada and pay taxes) to find out.  I suppose it might completely retrain my typing weight once I get used to it.  For those who have made the switch from, say, a model M to a Topre - how was it?  Should I get a 55g or standard Topre?  Again - $300 to find out I chose the wrong one is daunting.  Topres look on the surface to be just another rubber dome keyboard with a higher quality detection system but identical feel.  They don't look like they would tactile bump in any way etc...

I'm still waiting for EK to get their new lineup and may still order something with MX browns to try.  I've never knowingly used any ALPS switches so I don't know how they compare.

In terms of layout and other properties - I would like a windows key, standard enter key with the \| on top, inverted T cursor layout (MS did a run of naturals with a plus layout that drove me nuts) and an enlarged backspace key in the top right.  CTRL should be lower left and caps lock mid left.  At home I prefer black.  At the office I don't care.  I want a board that does both USB and PS2 and it should be 6KRO on USB and NKRO on PS2.  I started wearing letters off of an MS Natural 4000 in only 4 months.  I would like quality keycaps, preferably laser etched or two-piece but it's hard to get so specific, I know, especially in black.  I don't know for sure yet whether I want smooth or textured keys - I suspect textured but then they will spot wear to smooth.  I don't care greatly about media keys.  Backlit for home might be nice but is in no way required.  All of the other factors are of higher importance than illumination.

I'm considering a tenkeyless board for home only - I need the numpad at work.  I have no interest in the HHKB style of keyboard - there's too much non-standard layout going on there and I don't find blank keys cool at all.  I've got a whole family using this board at home, including kids learning to read/type.

I suspect what I want may not even exist.  I might cough up the dough for a Realforce for home if I knew I was going to like it but it's a large financial outlay for something I might hate.  I fear I'd only recover half the amount even if I turned around and sold it the day after it arrived.

Any advice for someone who likes the idea of Cherry browns but fears they are be too light?

If you made it this far, thanks for reading!

[sixty]

If you do indeed bottom out MX Blacks, then browns are not for you. You would most likely push the stem all the way through the PCB and the desk below. That is how light they are compared to MX Blacks.

Topre indeed sounds the way for you. I would suggest the 55g model, there is not much to do wrong there (especially if you have heavy fingers, like it sounds). Topre should also satisfy your other needs, such as high quality keycaps and the like.

I am not a too big fan of Topre switches myself, but for you they just sound right. If you end up hating them, you will be able to easily sell them off here again. Topre boards sell like hot pie, you could say.

[Surly73]

Well, the typical rubber dome keyboard construction means that I MUST bottom out the keys to register keystrokes - until going mechanical.

On my model M, most of the noise is spring return noise.  I'm not certain, but I think a month with the model M, while still noisy, might have me starting to bottom out less.  Of course I still have the Logi Illuminated at home so it's back to bottoming out when I return home.

I've read posts from Topre users who have said that it takes as long as a month but it trains you to type differently.  I'm not sure if that would apply to me since I'm not on the same keyboard all of the time.  If I bought a Realforce, I would be Model M at work and Realforce at home - at least for now.

One thing I'm not too clear on - I haven't seen any clear indication of the 6KRO/nKRO abilities of the realforce.  Is it USB only?  There's no mention of PS2 or an adapter shown.  Is it safe to assume that it's at least 6KRO when used on USB?  The sale at EK on the 103U-UW is tempting (foregoing my original desire of black, tenkeyless and possibly 55g ).  My parents are snowbirding in FL for a couple more weeks and I can save significant $$ by shipping to them and having them bring it back.

What are the "stoppers" for?  Google told me absolutely nothing.

[sixty]

One thing I'm not too clear on - I haven't seen any clear indication of the 6KRO/nKRO abilities of the realforce.  Is it USB only?  There's no mention of PS2 or an adapter shown.  Is it safe to assume that it's at least 6KRO when used on USB?  The sale at EK on the 103U-UW is tempting (foregoing my original desire of black, tenkeyless and possibly 55g ).  My parents are snowbirding in FL for a couple more weeks and I can save significant $$ by shipping to them and having them bring it back.

What are the "stoppers" for?  Google told me absolutely nothing.

There is a pretty big debate on the Realforce n-key support. In theory every single Topre board should be considered as nKey rollover, since that lies in the nature of the capacitive switches. The newer Realforce series however, does not actually support PS2 adapters. Their controller only supports USB, so it is indeed limited to 6key rollover.

[godly_music]

If 2KRO is already enough to play FPS games (it is for me), then 3KRO is enough for a hardcore gamer and 4+KRO is more than you actually will ever need.

[Surly73]

If 2KRO is already enough to play FPS games (it is for me), then 3KRO is enough for a hardcore gamer and 4+KRO is more than you actually will ever need.

I'm far from hardcore, but having to run, strafe and jump isn't uncommon.  That's potentially W + A + SHIFT + SPACE.  I've already noticed that the Logitech Illuminated has limitations.

Anyways, the point of my KRO comments for the Realforce is that there is no spec at EK while there was lots of detail on the Filco line when they sold it.  For $300 I should at least know the KRO level.

[nigritude]

not sure why it is not on EK, but i think the realforces are 6KRO. or that is what it says on the wiki

[bugfix]

My Realforce 105 definitely is 6KRO.

[jbl]

What are the "stoppers" for?  Google told me absolutely nothing.

You slip them under keys you don't want to use. For example, if you want to make sure that you never hit the contextual menu key by accident, you would slip a keystopper under there.

[Surly73]

1/ Thanks for the KRO confirmation
2/ The application of the "stoppers" makes sense, it's just something I never thought anyone would ever need.  I thought there must be more to it.

3/ What about something with Cherry clears for me?  I was just checking out the Deck Legend Frost thread that's been recently active.  I find that Deck boards look a little "odd".  It's something about the font they use on the keys I think.  They don't look quality and fantastic like the HHKB, Model M or Filco Majestouch (to some extent).  

Cherry clears seem to be really hard to find.  I'm not sure if all of the Legend series are clear yet or not.

[Surly73]

Sorry, I stated some misinformation in my original post.

The "black linear" switch Cherry mobile data terminal keyboard I have is a Cherry G84-4161PAU or Cherry ML4100.  It has black coloured mechanical switches in it but they aren't MX series.  I've found some other posts indicating that they are "heavy" but I haven't found anything numerical yet.

Months ago I thought that maybe these would be similar in character to the Cherry MX blacks, perhaps I'm wrong.  I bottom these keys out and the bottom noise makes quite a racket.  These will be shorter stroke than an MX switch though, so I'm not sure how much you can read into that.  I have also worried that MX brown bottoming noise would make more noise than I'd like if my typing style remains bottoming - I have no idea if it will.  

If I get something with browns, I may consider O-ring modding.  I like "thock" better than "clacky", that's for sure.

Any comments on the suitability of clears for me?

Thx

[Surly73]

I have a couple of comments to add to my list of likes and dislikes, as well as some general comments to make.

I'm using my model M at the office full time, but it is a 1397599.  It has a blue IBM logo, but no mention of Lexmark anywhere and "COMPAQ" on the SDL cable.  I also dug a 3151 terminal model M (#1392595) out of my basement and although they weren't side by side it would seem that my 1397599 is WAY more twangy and noisy than the 1392595 model.  Does this make sense?  Is there really that much variation?  I've already done the "dental floss" mod to the 1397599 and it still twangs like crazy.  The older 3151 keyboard feels more solid, damped, and quieter.  Hmph.  Is it worth doing a guts transplant from the 1392595 into the 1397599 case and electronics?  I wonder if I think I'm getting the "model M" experience but I'm really not.

Further, I ran across a WYSE terminal with an 840358-13 on it.  I used a lot of WYSE terminals 15-17 years ago and knew I liked the keyboards but had no idea about having Cherry MX blacks at the time.  I rattled away on it for a little bit as a sample and WOW is it light.  I clearly make lots of clacky noise from the keys bottoming out.  I simply can't fathom how some folks write here, "I can't bottom out blacks".  Huh?  So it's both MX blacks and ML blacks that I can bottom out pretty easily, but I'm pretty fast and accurate on them.

Anyways, it's clear that a Cherry board isn't going to be "quiet" around my house but I am expect key bottoming clackiness at least until I adjust.  As it stands, I still have nothing that doesn't need bottoming out to register - even the Model M - so how else would I type?

I dug out a Keytronic E03601QUS201-C that I'm taking a look at.  I like the sound and feel, although the key caps rattle and are thin junk.  I know it's no Realforce, so it's within expectations.  I think it might make a good "home" keyboard until I source some other things to try.  I am hoping to run across something in the next couple of days with browns in it to compare to.  If the Keytronic 3601 is a "Topre lite", then it's interesting for sure.  It's both light, but very tactile with a quiet thocky landing - perfect for home (for now).  Thocky is good....

I also ran across a pile of the "Dell Quietkeys" that locked up my forearms 12 years ago - SK-1000REW.  I rattled off a few sentences and felt that eerie feeling coming on again.  There was a Dell L100 there too, which *looks* like the Quietkeys I've seen praised here but clearly must not be.  Ugh!  Shoot me now (tm).  If Topres were anything like these two with their "soft landing" and other disgustingness I don't ever want one.

[keyb_gr]

You've got the "bad" Quietkeys there, those made by Silitek. The "good" ones are those from NMB, RT7whatever. From force graphs, Topres actually seem to be more "hard landing" by rubber dome standards.

The level of pinginess in Ms seems to be mostly a matter of barrel plate and rivet condition, and evened out with a nuts/bolts mod. You can definitely try opening both up and checking whether the controller boards are compatible.

[Surly73]

You've got the "bad" Quietkeys there, those made by Silitek. The "good" ones are those from NMB, RT7whatever. From force graphs, Topres actually seem to be more "hard landing" by rubber dome standards.

Yeah, I feel like I need to pop some muscle relaxants just thinking about them.  ugh

The level of pinginess in Ms seems to be mostly a matter of barrel plate and rivet condition, and evened out with a nuts/bolts mod. You can definitely try opening both up and checking whether the controller boards are compatible.

So, are you saying here that on my twangy M I might have some broken rivets and that's all that going on?  Or that the later version may have some design differences in the plate contributing to twang?

I don't have a 7/32" socket that can reach the bolts on the M yet (my standard and deep sockets won't reach) so I was not able to disassemble and inspect the plate/rivets.

On another interesting note, I just popped the keycaps on my old Amiga 2000 keyboard and found Cherry blacks!  I was surprised - of course google wasn't .     Again, not at all what I'd consider to be "light".

[Tony]

If you like IBM model M with 60g keypress, it is unlikely you will like the Cherry brown, which is lighter (45g). Topre is even lighter, so I think you will not like it.

But once you are in this forum, your curiousity will be awakened and you will try a lot of switches anyway.

[geekdwldwl]

If you do indeed bottom out MX Blacks, then browns are not for you.

[Surly73]

If you do indeed bottom out MX Blacks, then browns are not for you.

Well, here's my position on that:

1/ Of course I bottom everything out.  I have unwittingly had some mechanical keyboards in the past (Amiga 2000 1987-1994, WYSE terminal and Sun use 1992-1998) but I've mostly been using membrane boards.  If my muscles weren't trained to bottom out I wouldn't be registering any keystrokes.

2/ What I don't get is people who claim that blacks are SO heavy that they can't bottom them out, or that they fatigue very quickly.  I put many, many hours on that Amiga keyboard, many of them as a "kid" and I didn't get tired.  Although I have a "keyboard" (i.e. piano, organ) background.  I've always wondered if playing a keyboard instrument from childhood has saved me from serious RSI.  

I can type fairly heavily, and blacks feel "light" and smooth.  On the other hand, I don't HAVE to type heavy.  Something in the keyboard's character determines how hard I type on it and it's more complicated than strictly key weight.  It's subconscious and I don't know what it is.  I don't destroy all of my laptops, for instance, and on some I've had a very light silent touch.  Then I dock it back at my desk and pound away on an MS natural.  Beats me...

I spent 2 minutes with a friend's 12 year old Kinesis with browns.  I couldn't even feel what I would call a "tactile bump" compared to a Logitech Illuminated, Keytronic 03601 or model M.  The Keytronic (supposedly 55g) feels light but snappy.

@Tony:

Back when model F and M were standard issue, not something pulled out of dumpsters by geekhackers, I was never particularly fond of them.  The rattle-clackity just seemed like excessive noise and weight at the time.  There were other keyboards I preferred much more than IBMs although I didn't always know why.  For instance I knew that I liked keyboards in one lab that were Honeywells, but I hated all of the others in that lab.  Or that I liked particular Sun keyboards far more than others (maybe these were Topre boards that I liked).  I've only become GH obsessed and started pulling the keycaps off of everything in the last little while.  Is there some kind of support group?

I'm using a Model M at work because I have one and it's the best thing I currently have, not because I think it's the perfect board for me.  I think it's changed my touch a bit in the last 7 weeks I have been using it but at its core it's still a membrane board.

I've been presented with some "dumpster diving" opportunities coming up where I think there may be some decent mechanicals.  I'm going to try to resist the urge to buy new keyboards to try out different switch types and see if I can find some browns or clears to test drive even if I don't like the layout.

I think I would prefer clears, but it's almost impossible to get a board with them.  Those old Cherry POS boards with the trackpad have a really weird layout and there are a number of things about the Deck Legend tactile Frost boards that I'm not super fond of.  Other than that, I've seen very little mention of clears.  Either way, Cherry caps really seem to be clacky for me and I'll have to try a dental band/O-ring mod when I finally get a board.  I did not stop bottoming out with my boards with blacks, but without any kind of tactile response I don't think I ever would.  Maybe I would with browns or clears.  Maybe I make my own "tactile bump" by bottoming blacks out hard.

[Surly73]

Ordered a Filco tenkeyless w/ browns from PCHome during their latest brief period where they had it in stock.  It arrived today and I've been able to do a little bit of typing on it to form some impressions compared to some other boards I was using.  I got rid of the Logitech Illuminated because it fails W+SHIFT+SPACE so that's no good for gaming.  I was using a Keytronic 3601 I dug up in it's place and enjoying it a fair bit.  I would have preferred the 3600 layout but I don't have one.

- As I mentioned, my key strike force seems to depend on a number of factors, not just the spring weight of the keyboard.  On the browns so far my touch seems "medium" - I'm not really pounding on it but I am bottoming out.  Again, every keyboard I've had since my Amiga 2000 and Wyse terminal days ended (on the order of 15 years ago) has required bottoming out to register keystrokes so there's no big surprise there.

- There's some bottoming noise, that should not be a big shock.  It's got a "plicky" quality, certainly not thocky.  I wonder if I should look into PCB vs. plate mounting for feel/sound.  I liked the Keytronic sound better, other than the keycap "ringing" on release.  That probably points me in a "realforce" direction...

- I'm not feeling the love from the Filco keycaps.  They seem really featherweight and like nothing special at all.  It seems like my MS Naturals have heavier keys.  The Keytronics are about the same.  My older Cherry black boards have much more solid keys, of course they are double shot.  Then there's the model M  - no contest.  They work, I guess, and they seem better than the Keytronic keys.  Of course the Keytronic is a ~$20 board.

- When typing, I am not feeling anything particularly tactile about the brown switch at all.  It's not as loose as the 12 year old Kenesis I tried, but I'm not feeling any kind of a "pop" in the force profile that I feel on every other keyboard.  Using my imagination only, this is what I'd expect reds to feel like.  They're lighter than my keyboards with blacks but I'm not feeling a bump.  If I very slowly depress individual keys (i.e. not typing) I can feel a bit of a bump.  Hmph.  I suspect if I did simultaneous A/B comparison they might not feel linear, but browns lack a bump like logitech Perfectstroke, Keytronic, model M (duh) and most of the good rubber domes in my collection.  I find that a touch surprising.

- I also find when repeating a keystroke that I don't release the key above the tactile point so there's a loss of tactility or keystroke registering feedback if cursoring across a line or any other application which repeats keystrokes.  I guess that's a behaviour that I didn't realize I had.  The model M didn't point this out to me at all so the BS buckling point must be further down the keystroke than the MX brown bump.

- do clears have a more pronounced bump, or just a similar bump and overall higher key force.

- I'm not faster, probably a little slower, but it is a little more fun.

- The outer box was totally crushed, smashed and almost torn, but the inner box was perfect.  Most PCHome/AG customers describe the same thing.

- The board is heavy for its size, as others have described.  No warping, bends or twists - it sits perfectly level.  So far I haven't noticed any out-of-alignment keys or anything like that, nor have I noticed any functional problems - phew!

- Tenkeyless looks really weird and really cool on the desk at the same time.  It's nice to have the space back and better alignment but the board looks REALLY small compared to MS Naturals that I've had here for many years until recently followed by the large bezel 101-103 key boards like the Model M and Keytronic.  It looks simultaneously like a toy and quality piece - odd.

- And, damn you Geekhack, I know I'm going to probably get more boards to keep looking for a favourite..... sigh...  Thanks for giving me yet another obsession I didn't need.

[Surly73]

After a couple of days with the Filco it's started to break in a bit and feel less gritty.  If asked whether the keys feel tactile while typing, I would still probably say "no" but I'm starting to feel the groove of the brown...  I haven't been home enough to use it heavily but my touch is adapting slightly and the "fun" factor is increasing.  So far it's a thumbs up.  I'll be interested to compare it to the Realforce I have in the mail.