3 weeks with Realforce 55g and Cherry Browns

[Surly73]

So it's been about 3 weeks since I've been typing with a Realforce 55g (in a 103UB) at the office and Cherry Browns (in a Filco tenkeyless) at home and I thought I'd share some medium term observations to compliment the short term observations I made in my "it's in the mail" thread here.

I love the feel of the PBT keycaps.  This is the UB version and although I would like to be able to read the key legends better than this (it looks blank to me most of the time even at the office) it hasn't caused me too many problems.  The Filco caps are wearing OK, but don't feel nearly as nice as the Realforce caps.  OTOH, between the original 103UB owner and myself the spacebar is already developing a little shiny spot.  The Filco is still completely shine free.

In terms of noise there is no comparison - the RF is miles quieter than the Cherry, even when I'm typing really light and slow trying to make the Cherry as quiet as possible.  If you need quiet - Realforce wins over Cherry.  Most of the noise from the Cherry is from the caps, so this won't change depending on which switch you chose.  It may vary depending on the board and whether it is PCB or plate mounted, what the caps are like, case resonance etc...  I also type on a model M, and both boards are "silent" compared to that.

In terms of switch feel, the Topre 55g is FAR FAR FAR more tactile than the Cherry brown.  There's a nice popping yield when pressing the Topre switch.  Also, the Topre switch seems to have no drag resistance of any sort - as if the mechanism floats with no contact or everything internally is made from high grade teflon.  My MXs have over 4 weeks on them and they still feel gritty and like something is dragging inside. This is probably the little "tactile bump" mechanism and blacks or reds wouldn't have this gritty feel.

The Topres have the best off-axis binding characteristics of any switch I've ever used.  Right out of the box I ooohed and aaaahed over the unique feel compared to anything else I've typed on.  The thocky sound and feel is also great.  I really like the force curve feeling compared to the Cherry which is always linearly increasing even on a "tactile" switch.  The Topre space bar whacks a little, and the larger keys (shift, enter, BS) have a bit of a metallic rattle to them on down and up stroke.

At speed the Cherrys don't feel tactile at all.  At speed I can easily tell the difference between blacks and browns, that's not what I'm saying, but my mind/muscle does not perceive "tactile bumps" as the difference that I feel.  I don't know how else to describe it.  I still haven't had a chance to try Cherry clears.

An interesting observation, however, is that despite liking the individual feeling of the Topre 55g better than the Cherry, I am not faster or, overall, more comfortable on the Topre.  When typing quickly on the Cherry (i.e. natural english prose in email or IM as opposed to code) I find that I roll from key to key and ramp up to a faster speed.  On the Topre my mind/muscle seems to be pressing one key at a time and focusing on the press/release before moving on.  Typing on a cherry is like "abcd.efg.h.ijklmn.o.pqrstuvwxyz".  Typing on the Topre 55g is like "A B C..D.EF.G.H.I.JK.L.M.N".  You get the idea.

I'm thinking that the 55g is too heavy for me to get fast and fluid on which is why I'm watching for a variable force.  I'm also a little worried about all the comments I hear that the 30/35g keys aren't tactile at all.  The tactility feels so great on the 55g, I'd hate for half of a variable board to feel linear.  On the other hand, perhaps 55g is "over tactile" which is what's causing what I'm observing.

I find it odd that I don't exhibit the same typing pattern on model Ms or 10 year old Keytronics boards which are uniform 55g weighting (just like my Topre) before going to ergo variable (kind of like variable Topre).  I'm smooth and fluid on a Keytronic and Model M as well with out the stuttering I see on the Realforce.  Anyone else observed this?

So I'm looking for a Realforce 86U/87U with variable keys and preferably legends I can read so that I can determine if variable Topres are right for me.  I haven't decided whether to keep the 55g while I think about it and enjoy it until then or whether to sell immediately.  After looking at this thread, what I really want is a gold/black/black 87U US ANSI variable force

[BucklingSpring]

So I'm looking for a Realforce 86U/87U with variable keys and preferably legends I can read so that I can determine if variable Topres are right for me.  I haven't decided whether to keep the 55g while I think about it and enjoy it until then or whether to sell immediately.  After looking at this thread, what I really want is a gold/black/black 87U US ANSI variable force

Good luck with anything US ANSI and Gold on Black. Let me know if you find where they hide.

I too started with Blind on Black all 55g. Then added a RF White + variable for the same reasons as you. The pop you and I liked on the 55g is gone on the variable. The light switches are practically linear. The variable is a big disappointment. But the wife like it so much. The white RF variable is her favorite board of all my collection. If I ever buy another Topre, it will be all 55g for sure. Maybe another variable if she poors coffee in hers.

[Shuki]

I had pretty much the exact same experience. At first I did feel as though I wasn't typing as efficiently as I did on my Cherry Brown, however I put that down to the fact that I think the key spacing of the topre is larger and the actual face of the key is smaller. The fact that you can't discern the legends on the keys in the absence of bright light accentuates this problem.

This "gritty" feel you get with the cherrys I can understand as well. I didn't notice it until I used the Topre, but in comparison to my cherry red and brown filco, you do tend to notice the friction of the key stem when the key is depressed. However I only notice this when pressing the key very slowly, and it's more apparent on the cherry reds than the cherry brown.

Again I agree about the keycaps on the Topre, the texture on them prevents them from becoming oily and reduces friction when you move your fingers across the keys (I tend to do this while playing MMOs and RTS). Also when playing games where you tend to bottom out the key, the topre is very pleasant due to the "cushioned" landing.

If you feel that the 55g Topre is too heavy but are worried the 30g lacks tactility, I would consider investing into an all 45g Topre board.

All in all, I would say a very good (and accurate) review.

[ch_123]

The black on dark grey keys are dye sub'd. I'm not sure how the other colours are printed, probably lasered. I wonder just how durable they are though.

[Shuki]

Why would you think they aren't produced in the same way?

[Surly73]

The black on dark grey keys are dye sub'd. I'm not sure how the other colours are printed, probably lasered. I wonder just how durable they are though.

Well, in all fairness, I'm not sure how much durability of gold-on-black matters when the dye sub black-on-grey keys look blank 90% of the time anyways

[Surly73]

I had pretty much the exact same experience. At first I did feel as though I wasn't typing as efficiently as I did on my Cherry Brown, however I put that down to the fact that I think the key spacing of the topre is larger and the actual face of the key is smaller. The fact that you can't discern the legends on the keys in the absence of bright light accentuates this problem.

I think I am certainly feeling some of this effect too, and it could explain why the similar-concept 55g Keytronic board doesn't slow me down to the same degree.  I wasn't sure if it was my imagination, though.

Again I agree about the keycaps on the Topre, the texture on them prevents them from becoming oily and reduces friction when you move your fingers across the keys (I tend to do this while playing MMOs and RTS). Also when playing games where you tend to bottom out the key, the topre is very pleasant due to the "cushioned" landing.

I still bottom out when I type but fairly lightly at this point.  It's decades of bottoming out muscle memory to undo - I'm not sure if it will ever happen completely.  It's also hard not to bottom out with such a distinct "pop" from the 55g Topres.

I love the caps and the firm but quiet cushion.

If you feel that the 55g Topre is too heavy but are worried the 30g lacks tactility, I would consider investing into an all 45g Topre board.

I fear that might be unobtanium for Canadians, except in HHKB2 format (which I'm not interested in at all due to the layout).  I'll have to keep my eye on overseas sources that don't require brokers to deal with - TKC, PCHome, Armygroup...  I'm not feelin' the love for taobao + broker.

[Surly73]

I just posted in that classified thread...  The excellent pictures provided by the seller highlight to me that the gold on black keys appear to have a very different texture than my black on grey keys.  They are smoother and semi-gloss compared to mine - almost like Filco caps.

Interesting!  Anyone ever had both?  Are these gold on black keys completely different than the PBT white/black and black/grey caps?

[itlnstln]

Noppoo Lasered POM supposedly but could be PBT (I'm suspicious of Asian Keyboard Forums and people say it doesn't feel slick)

I would hope they're POM. They feel like POM to me.  That, and it says it right on the front of the box.

[Surly73]

I didn't think they were different from other lasereds when I saw them in person in Akihabara but didn't exactly have a microscope on me.

Microscope not required.  I could see the difference pretty easily.  The gold/black pictures clearly show that the key tops are far less textured than the case and a quick glance at my 103UB in front of me shows the opposite - the keys have even deeper texture than the case and less reflectivity.

[Shuki]

Are the black on white keycaps textured?

I would like a set of keycaps which are easily visible but I would also like them to have the same texture as the black on black keys.

[RiGS]

The key texture on the my white Realforce is somewhat inconsistent.
The enter keys and the + key on the numpad have a nice rough texture, but the rest have an oily, smooth and slippery feel.

I've replaced the WASD keycaps with a black on red set, they have a nice texture just like the enter keys. These don't have that problem.

[Surly73]

I notice no inconsistency in the keys on my 103UB.  They are all highly textured and have a dry, slippery (as opposed to oily) feel to them.  I believe this is a commonly reported characteristic of PBT.

[RiGS]

The red keycaps have a noticeably different texture and feel.

[Surly73]

I didn't think that the mauve WASD I received with my Realforce had any different texture at all.  They aren't together right now (no need for highlighted WASD at the office) so I can't do a side-by-side.