RealForce 3-level vs 55g, and silent version; exteranl NumPad

[keyjay]

I'm going to bite the bullet and buy both a RealForce and a Leopold and keep the one I like most (I'll actually get one for my other two computers and give the once I'm not choosing to one of my employees).

But I have a couple questions before I buy, please.

Can I please ask for a few opinions on the RealForce 3-level weights vs 55g?

I've been using a standard ALPS keyboard the recent few years and that seems fine, but I want to improve my typing performance another level.

(Once upon a time I used KeyTronic with the varied weights and that seemed fine, too -- until I learned what mechanical could be like.)

Also, I understand there is a "silent" RealForce made, but not carried by EK. Any idea if I can buy one from "anywhere" even if there's high overseas shipping costs, as long as it's normal American key layout and lettering?

And for the Leopold, can I please get a suggestion or two on what to pick up for an external NumPad?

Thanks!

[kamikazekyle]

I prefer the variable (3-level) weights on my Realforce vice unified weights.  It's a little odd at first, but after typing for an extended period you'll realize just how less fatiguing it is on your ring and pinky fingers.  It's not a whole heck of a lot of difference, but from your other thread you'll see heavy use on the keyboard so you'll certainly notice it.  Just be careful of resting your pinky too hard on the A or ; keys, as they really require very little force to actuate.  

I haven't seen the "silent" RealForce anywhere else but EK -- then again I didn't look too hard since I wasn't concerned about getting one.  Most of the sound from the realforce comes from the "thock" of bottoming out on the keys with a wooden keyboard tray/desk.  In other words, its sound profile will vary depending on where you use it, and it's not a loud keyboard by any means.  I find it to be quieter than cherry browns.  This Steelseries I'm typing on right now (cherry black) is near silent, but that's because there's no tacticle bump or audible click, and I'm not really bottoming out on the keys like I do on my Realforce.

I can't say much regarding external keypads.  If you like the Leopold's switch type (blue/brown), you can find external keypads in various cherry switches.

[Kacee]

In my case, I notice most of the sound comes from the upstroke where the whole switch assembly hits the top casing

[RiGS]

Is it possible to not buttom out on the realforce while typing?

[theferenc]

Is it possible to not buttom out on the realforce while typing?

Yes, but it's rather difficult at first. And it's REALLY hard to hold the keys below activation, but above bottoming out. There is just so little force and so little travel in that regime that it's quite challenging.

It's definitely doable, though. It just takes a lot of practice and a very light touch.

[itlnstln]

I think it's easier to do when typing fast.  It's pretty hard not to bottom out when slowly pressing keys.  It's one of the reasons I like Cherry browns better.

[RiGS]

It's definitely doable, though. It just takes a lot of practice and a very light touch.

Yeah, but it will slow you down considerably.
I think I prefer my mx blacks for typing as well, they are just so damn good.
I hate to buttom out.

[BucklingSpring]

I own both a variable and a all 55g. I prefer all 55g.
Coming from the M/Buckling spring world and still using it. I'm no delicate typist.

If you like light switches – Go for variable.
If you like heavy switches – Go for all 55g (even the 55g are not that heavy anyway)

As for more or less keys on your board...
According to Ripster, there is strange correlation between IQ and the number of keys. A full size keyboard is only good if you brag about your IQ.

[keyjay]

Wow. Sorry for not responding sooner. I forgot the email notifications stop after the first reply until I chime in.

I haven't seen the "silent" RealForce anywhere else but EK --
This Steelseries I'm typing on right now (cherry black) is near silent, but that's because there's no tacticle bump or audible click, and I'm not really bottoming out on the keys like I do on my Realforce.

I spoke to Brian at EK and he said there "is" a "silent" RealForce but he chose not to carry it (due to stringent business requirements). So, the one he has is "near" silent but is not "the" silent model. That's why I was asking if I can get "the" truly silent model from perhaps an overseas supplier -- with all American lettering.

In saying you use the SteelSeries with Cherry Black... I find that interesting. Maybe I should be looking there. How does the weight of the keys compare to a Cherry Brown or Blue? Do you know? And will I lose much of the "near silent" quality if I don't master the art of not bottoming out? (Though I realize in time I may do so.)

Yeah, but it will slow you down considerably.
I think I prefer my mx blacks for typing as well, they are just so damn good.
I hate to buttom out.

Another reference to Blacks. That's even more interesting. And you also suggest/hint that I'll probably gradually learn to not bottom out, and that that's a good thing. I have no idea what that would even be like based on my experience to date, but if that's the optimal way to be typing (and keep it quieter when on the phone in stealth mode), all the better.

So.... I have had SteelSeries mentioned. Any other suggestions and/or specifics on what to buy for Cherry Blacks? Maybe even one with a NumPad? Solid, no frills or colored buttons :-), black or gray with white or at least readable lettering -- best quality available (performance and quality build matters more to me than cost).

I own both a variable and a all 55g. I prefer all 55g.
As for more or less keys on your board...
According to Ripster, there is strange correlation between IQ and the number of keys. A full size keyboard is only good if you brag about your IQ.

Humph. I'm not clear on how to apply that formula. I never, ever brag about my IQ. It's just ridiculously high and that's just how it is. It's just there. Nothing I can do about it, but face it and be honest. So, sounds like a need a 117-key layout, huh? (Which, come to think of it, is what I'm typing on right now. Wow! The formula works!)

[keyjay]

Well, I now see, after some searching, that Cherry Black is not exactly tops on many a typing enthusiast's list of preferences. And it has more resistance than Brown or Blue. And I see SteelSeries is not exactly known for having the best build quality.

So, I'm back to, I guess... well...

· Try a RealForce (3x or 55g)

"and"

· Try a Leopold Brown (and find a TenKeyPad somewhere)... OR see about a Majestouch full-sized Brown from http://www.keyboardco.com/keyboard_details.asp?PRODUCT=646 if they have it in a US layout and can ship to the US.

[suntorytime]

I'm surprised you think the SS 7g/6g keyboards are low quality, the 7g keybaord I have feels more solid than my Realforce 103UB, probably due to the steel plate on the bottom.

As for typing, I really like my 7g for typing and hate it for gaming. It's like typing on rubber bands, and creates a good typing rhythm, works really well for long typing spurts. I find it's easy to hover on the mx blacks and lightly tap without consciously trying to not bottom out.

My realforce 55g is easily louder than the 7g when typing. I also find its near impossible to not bottom out my 55g, and the space bar is friggin loud. As much as I love my RF, if silence is a real concern to you I'd try out mx browns/black before a topre.

[Chobopants]

I type on a Realforce at work and a Filco cherry brown at home. I have no idea what suntorytime is talking about as the noise difference isn't even close. The RF is silent compared to my Filco. I'm also an advocate for the 55g if you have strong fingers and like to type with vigor. Since money isn't too big a concern from what you've said, I'd say just snag a RF and see what you think. At the least one of your employees will love you forever.

Ironically, I just typed this post on my iPad.

[keyjay]

Oh, so that answers it, really! I just need to get an iPad and do all my typing on that! :-)

On a more serious note... it seems no matter what I will be buying at least two keyboards to try out (sigh)... a RF and a Cherry Brown.

By the way, I only got that opinion about SteelSeries from a thread I'd found here. I can sure see how an actual steel plate could lend itself to a solid feel, though. I'm after the bigger picture of overall build quality. I see Filco and now Leopold here mostly, of course.

[keyjay]

I type on a Realforce at work and a Filco cherry brown at home. I have no idea what suntorytime is talking about as the noise difference isn't even close. The RF is silent compared to my Filco. I'm also an advocate for the 55g if you have strong fingers and like to type with vigor. Since money isn't too big a concern from what you've said, I'd say just snag a RF and see what you think. At the least one of your employees will love you forever.

Ironically, I just typed this post on my iPad.

May I ask "which" Filco full-size brown you use or would recommend? It seems to me this is the best I can find (at least until EK gets a full-sized Leopold Brown, if ever), assuiming I can get all US keys (dollars vs pounds): http://www.keyboardco.com/keyboard_details.asp?PRODUCT=646

[keyjay]

Oh, wow. That "UK" version is very different from US layouts. Looks like my only real option for a Cherry Brown is a Leopold and a separate TenKeyPad (the best I've found so far seems to be http://www.keyboardco.com/keyboard_details.asp?PRODUCT=620, unless anyone knows of a better place to get the same or better in the US).

[Surly73]

I type on a Realforce at work and a Filco cherry brown at home. I have no idea what suntorytime is talking about as the noise difference isn't even close. The RF is silent compared to my Filco. I'm also an advocate for the 55g if you have strong fingers and like to type with vigor. Since money isn't too big a concern from what you've said, I'd say just snag a RF and see what you think. At the least one of your employees will love you forever.

Ironically, I just typed this post on my iPad.

I have exactly the same scenario and observations right now.  My 55g RF is WAY quieter than my Filco no matter how I try to type on it.  Even little bits of key cap "plinking" are louder on the Filco.  This is not to say I'm sold on the 55g RF, but there's no debate about noise.  Yes, I bottom out, but I'm "trained" now to bottom out very lightly on the Cherrys.  I plan to post separately about my 3 week observations of RF vs. Cherry brown at some point soon.

If the OP wants really silent typing, check out a scissor switch board like the Logitech Perfectstroke switch (currently on the Illuminated line and the discontinued IIRC dinovo line).  Those were completely silent, but not the typing experience of Cherry or RF.

[RiGS]

I think it is much harder to not buttom out on the 55g topre than on the variable, but topre has a very soft landing.

[itlnstln]

I think the sound is the best part of the Realforce.  The overall construction is awesome, too.

[suntorytime]

I type on a Realforce at work and a Filco cherry brown at home. I have no idea what suntorytime is talking about as the noise difference isn't even close....

I should clarify that I meant mx blacks, not browns. Adding browns to my last paragraph was more of a brain fart, but I'm leaving it there for prosperity.

[Chobopants]

May I ask "which" Filco full-size brown you use or would recommend? It seems to me this is the best I can find (at least until EK gets a full-sized Leopold Brown, if ever), assuiming I can get all US keys (dollars vs pounds): http://www.keyboardco.com/keyboard_details.asp?PRODUCT=646

I was fortunate to get one of the last shipments of the US Filcos from EliteKeyboards before the Starcraft hordes cleared him out and he switched to Leopold. Luckily Keyboard Co is selling Filcos through Amazon so you could grab one of these guys if you wanted:

http://www.amazon.com/Filco-Majestouch-2-NKR-ASCII-Switch/dp/B004OX4HWG/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1301411246&sr=8-2

If you want something quieter, as suntorytime has said, the Black switches aren't as loud/rattle-y as other switches since they're a lot stiffer. People don't generally like typing on them but I'm sure they're fine switches:
http://www.amazon.com/SteelSeries-6Gv2-Mechanical-Gaming-Keyboard/dp/B0038X3ZVM/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1301411246&sr=8-7

For your needs, especially noise-related, I will continue to advocate the Realforce. Both Browns and Blues are click-clacky (in different degrees) and WILL drive your coworkers nuts if they're sensitive to that kind of thing. The RF has a satisfying, muted, *thunk* that will only make them jealous.

Also, it is much easier to get a Realforce in full size with a US key layout than a Brown/Blue/Red switched Cherry due to EK. You can have it in your hands by Friday:
http://www.elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=topre_keyboards,realforce&pid=rf_se0200
I really think this keyboard will make you happy.

If you are patient and really want a Cherry switch, it could be worth your time to wait on seeing what the second batch of Leopolds from EK is going to be. Rumors abound but we've heard, at the least, that he's shooting for full size boards next run, though no hints as to which switches they will come with.

[Surly73]

There's also the Armygroup and PCHome options for Filco from the Far East.  I got mine from PCHome and it was a great shopping experience (other than the fact that I forgot to buy a tenkeyless sized wrist rest at the same time).

[keyjay]

KeyBoardCo in the UK emailed me and said they will have Filco 104 USA Brown keyboards back in stock in a few weeks and that when that happens they'll also be on Amazon.

I wonder if, just for kicks, I could ask the proverbial question that's been addressed countless times on this forum? Which is: If I just wanted as quiet as is realistic, but didn't need silent, which Cherry MX seems most liked for intense typists?

[Surly73]

KeyBoardCo in the UK emailed me and said they will have Filco 104 USA Brown keyboards back in stock in a few weeks and that when that happens they'll also be on Amazon.

I wonder if, just for kicks, I could ask the proverbial question that's been addressed countless times on this forum? Which is: If I just wanted as quiet as is realistic, but didn't need silent, which Cherry MX seems most liked for intense typists?

With the exception of blues, all of the noise from a Cherry board comes from bottoming out - nothing else.  After that it's up to construction - caps, plate etc...  Anything but blues is likely to sound similar when bottomed out.

If it comes to what boards best prevent bottoming out - that would be the heaviest ones - clears and blacks.  Of course that doesn't mean that everyone finds them pleasurable to type on.  I've been finding that my muscle memory still has me bottoming my browns, but quite lightly even at speed.  There some noise, but not tons.

[keyjay]

Intense typists don't worry about noise because they are intense.

Well, yes, I agree. But we should also be allowing for the James Bond type of intense typist, or the "intense typist and intense entrepreneur" hybrid person. :spy:

I wear a headset when I talk on the phone at the office and often find I really want to be typing away while talking to people, and the nature of many of those conversations is such that it would not be good diplomacy for them to know I was doing both.

"Oh, you're too busy to pay attention to me while I'm talking?"

I know it's fringe subject matter but a survey on this topic would probably produce interesting data. As CEO of a biotech company, I often hear mature, professional businesspeople go into indignant pouting like teenagers over the phone when they realize that I'm typing while they're talking. And I guess I can't blame them. I would probably do the same. It can be very distracting.

My challenge, of course, once I get the right keyboard, is to actually genuinely pay attention to them while I'm typing. That's a whole other story.

[keyjay]

If it comes to what boards best prevent bottoming out - that would be the heaviest ones - clears and blacks.  Of course that doesn't mean that everyone finds them pleasurable to type on.  I've been finding that my muscle memory still has me bottoming my browns, but quite lightly even at speed.  There some noise, but not tons.

I must confess that having never used any mechanical keyboard but my ALPS Avant Stellar, and having always hit them hard enough to be bottoming out all the time "or so I assume", I have no way to even begin to relate to what it would be like to not be bottoming out, or what the advantages would be.

I'm trying to remember what it was like using an IBM Selectric typewriter in my youth. I'm assuming a Cherry Brown is something similar to that from what I've read so far.

[suntorytime]

As a lawyer I always have to make file notes whilst on the telephone with a client or colleagues. And I find it unprofessional for another solicitor to be slamming away on their rubber dome POS while i'm talking. I don't care if a client does it, they're footing the bill.

I've never considered using a mech board because irregardless of switch type, they're all too loud. Using a scissor switch board would be the better option. The best option would be to go full mechanical and use a pen and paper, my hand writing WPM has improved significantly.

[keyjay]

I've never considered using a mech board because irregardless of switch type, they're all too loud. Using a scissor switch board would be the better option. The best option would be to go full mechanical and use a pen and paper, my hand writing WPM has improved significantly.

That's very interesting. It actually has me rethinking this. Maybe you're right. Maybe I should resign myself to handwriting notes and then typing after we hang up.

Though there will still be those times when I'll need to type something while on the phone, and it would be nice if the keyboard wasn't "very" loud.

But, you're right.

And I really need to make the top priority my productivity in typing when choosing a keyboard anyway.

[Surly73]

I'm trying to remember what it was like using an IBM Selectric typewriter in my youth. I'm assuming a Cherry Brown is something similar to that from what I've read so far.

Absolutely not.  If you want that experience you need buckling springs and even at that it won't be similar.

Cherry browns, to me, have very little tactile feedback when you're typing at speed.  They feel different than blacks, for certain, but they do not feel like a Selectric.

[Surly73]

I wear a headset when I talk on the phone at the office and often find I really want to be typing away while talking to people, and the nature of many of those conversations is such that it would not be good diplomacy for them to know I was doing both.

If you have a headset with noise canceling (in the mic) Topres might fit the bill.  If you really want silent I'd start looking at scissor switches like the Logitech Illuminated.  You could write a novel on one of those while on the phone and the person on the other end would be none the wiser.

[Surly73]

As a lawyer I always have to make file notes whilst on the telephone with a client or colleagues. And I find it unprofessional for another solicitor to be slamming away on their rubber dome POS while i'm talking. I don't care if a client does it, they're footing the bill.

I've never considered using a mech board because irregardless of switch type, they're all too loud. Using a scissor switch board would be the better option. The best option would be to go full mechanical and use a pen and paper, my hand writing WPM has improved significantly.

Some of the lack of professionalism might come from the over-user of speaker phones situated immediately adjacent to the keyboard, no?  I'm not a lawyer, but I'm on lots of conference calls and a lot of people seem oblivious to both the functionality of the mute button and the down sides of putting your speaker phone right beside your keyboard.

On a related note, it's also pretty unprofessional to be slurping and smacking away on your lunch while using a headset unmuted.  (Seriously, what is wrong with people?)

You're in a situation where you're expected to type, not be listening with rapt attention to every word the other person says.  A little desk rearranging, not using a model M and possibly using a headset may be sufficient to not be rude, IMO.

[keyjay]

I really don't know where I got the notion that Selectric had any resemblance to these keyboards. I thought I had read it somewhere. So much for my remaining memory cells.

Well... Here's a good qusestion! "Which Cherry is generally most preferred by typists?" :biggrin:

[suntorytime]

According to the poll it would be mx brown. Though poll was not strictly related to typing. I think that would be your safest bet out of the cherry range.

[keyjay]

Isn't there not much difference in the feel? I believe the differences are that the blues are just a little bit firmer, and of course that they provide the auditory feedback. Is that about right?