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Author Topic: Topre 55g heavier than Cherry 55g?  (Read 3849 times)

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Offline dotancohen

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 140
    • Dotan Cohen
Topre 55g heavier than Cherry 55g?
« on: Mon, 23 May 2011, 03:01:31 »
Regarding this quote:
Quote
I love the feel but think that 55g may be too heavy for me to achieve max speed since I'm consistently faster on Cherry browns.


From this thread:
http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?18293-CANADA-Topre-Realforce-103UB-55g-w-warranty-CANADA

The Cherry Brown is also supposed to be 55g, so why do the Topres feel heavier? I ask because I am very sensitive to heavy keys (my Cherry Browns are too heavy and I plan on replacing the spring) and I am considering a Topre some day. Is there a Topre keyboard with the 35g keys all over, or only in the staggered layouts?

Thanks.
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Offline End0rphine

  • Posts: 6
Topre 55g heavier than Cherry 55g?
« Reply #1 on: Mon, 23 May 2011, 03:10:20 »
The Dharmapoint keyboards have all 35g keys but in the Jap layout.
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Offline dotancohen

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 140
    • Dotan Cohen
Topre 55g heavier than Cherry 55g?
« Reply #2 on: Mon, 23 May 2011, 03:24:24 »
Thanks, I had to google them. I love the placement of the arrow keys on this board:
http://www.dharmapoint.com/products/DRTCKB102UBK

I have no problem with the Japanese lettering, I don't look at the keyboard anyway. My current keyboard has Chinese lettering! I do have a problem with the ISO enter key, though, I really prefer the ANSI layout.

Are there any 35g keyboards available with the ANSI layout?
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Offline End0rphine

  • Posts: 6
Topre 55g heavier than Cherry 55g?
« Reply #3 on: Mon, 23 May 2011, 04:28:10 »
Oh sorry it's this keyboard:

http://www.dharmapoint.com/products/DRTCKB91

and it's 30g, my bad.
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Offline Surly73

  • Posts: 425
Topre 55g heavier than Cherry 55g?
« Reply #4 on: Mon, 23 May 2011, 07:09:42 »
Since you're quoting me, I'll comment :)

If you put the keyboards side by side and randomly tap keys like you're playing around at a store neither feels heavy and the Topre has noticeably less resistance in the keystroke than the Cherry.  Even broken in I can feel the drag in the 'tactile' mechanism on the cherry.

When you start typing and ramping up the speed, however, to me the Cherry feels like I can flow from key to key a little better (i.e. I'm starting to press the next before releasing the current) and it feels (to me) like it's a little easier to not bottom out.  I'm sure there's Rip-o-meter force graphs for both switches posted galore.  It may be that the tactile bump in the Topre is higher and stronger than the Cherry.  To me (again, this is all personal) it feels like I end up pressing and releasing one key at a time on the Topre - more staccato instead of flowing between the keys.  Neither switch fatigues me.  I can bang away on a Model M all day and not feel anything.  I learned to type on a non-electric manual typewriter and played keyboard instruments like piano.

It's a complicated issue.  I love the smooth, frictionless and quiet keystroke of the Topre for sure.  Why I don't seem to be quite as fast is a matter of conjecture.  That's why I want to try a variable (which is what Topre seems to think is "standard" or "best" since the 55g is a special edition).
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Offline noodles256

  • Posts: 1980
  • le legendary
Topre 55g heavier than Cherry 55g?
« Reply #5 on: Mon, 23 May 2011, 07:12:18 »
can't really compare the two since they use two different switch mechanisms.

like surly said, Topre's feel more liquid which I like while cherry blues are really loud and I love smacking it
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AF | Ducky YOTD |

Offline NimbleRabit

  • Posts: 137
Topre 55g heavier than Cherry 55g?
« Reply #6 on: Mon, 23 May 2011, 07:13:12 »
Quote from: dotancohen;350156
The Cherry Brown is also supposed to be 55g

Cherry brown is 45g.
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Offline bionicroach

  • Posts: 121
Topre 55g heavier than Cherry 55g?
« Reply #7 on: Mon, 23 May 2011, 11:06:46 »
Quote from: End0rphine;350163
Oh sorry it's this keyboard:

http://www.dharmapoint.com/products/DRTCKB91

and it's 30g, my bad.


Oh man, the Google translation on that page is awesome.

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Offline dotancohen

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 140
    • Dotan Cohen
Topre 55g heavier than Cherry 55g?
« Reply #8 on: Tue, 24 May 2011, 05:53:44 »
Quote from: End0rphine;350163
Oh sorry it's this keyboard:

http://www.dharmapoint.com/products/DRTCKB91

and it's 30g, my bad.

 
Thanks. 30 g is even better!
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Offline dotancohen

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 140
    • Dotan Cohen
Topre 55g heavier than Cherry 55g?
« Reply #9 on: Tue, 24 May 2011, 05:57:18 »
Quote from: Surly73;350199
If you put the keyboards side by side and randomly tap keys like you're playing around at a store neither feels heavy and the Topre has noticeably less resistance in the keystroke than the Cherry.  Even broken in I can feel the drag in the 'tactile' mechanism on the cherry.

Yes, I noticed that drag and even mentioned it in my review of this Ducky board. I don't like it either.

Quote
When you start typing and ramping up the speed, however, to me the Cherry feels like I can flow from key to key a little better (i.e. I'm starting to press the next before releasing the current) and it feels (to me) like it's a little easier to not bottom out.  I'm sure there's Rip-o-meter force graphs for both switches posted galore.  It may be that the tactile bump in the Topre is higher and stronger than the Cherry.

Again, an issue that I addressed in the Ducky review. I like the tactile bump of the Cherry Blues on my numpad, but they are too stiff for typing for me. I'd love a key with less pressure than the Brown but with more tactile feedback. It looks like you may have found my ideal switch (the 30g version)!

Quote
To me (again, this is all personal) it feels like I end up pressing and releasing one key at a time on the Topre - more staccato instead of flowing between the keys.  Neither switch fatigues me.  I can bang away on a Model M all day and not feel anything.  I learned to type on a non-electric manual typewriter and played keyboard instruments like piano.

It's a complicated issue.  I love the smooth, frictionless and quiet keystroke of the Topre for sure.  Why I don't seem to be quite as fast is a matter of conjecture.  That's why I want to try a variable (which is what Topre seems to think is "standard" or "best" since the 55g is a special edition).

It looks like I need to type on one to decide. Thanks for the input.
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Offline dotancohen

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 140
    • Dotan Cohen
Topre 55g heavier than Cherry 55g?
« Reply #10 on: Tue, 24 May 2011, 05:58:09 »
Quote from: NimbleRabit;350202
Cherry brown is 45g.

45 activation, after you've gotten past the 55g bump. So one still needs to press with 55 grams of force to register a keypress.
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Offline dotancohen

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 140
    • Dotan Cohen
Topre 55g heavier than Cherry 55g?
« Reply #11 on: Tue, 24 May 2011, 06:00:48 »
Quote from: ripster;350277
Topres feel heavier because Work=FxD.  It's an integral calculus kinda thing.

So you are saying that the Topres must be pushed further down than the Cherries? I understand that they both activate at 2mm depression.

Quote
My dog can do the numbers if you give him a bull penis twizzle.

Oh my. I've never even touched a bull penis. I wonder what I've been missing.
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Offline ch_123

  • * Exalted Elder
  • Posts: 5860
Topre 55g heavier than Cherry 55g?
« Reply #12 on: Tue, 24 May 2011, 06:19:04 »
Given that 55g Cherry switches actually have a peak force of 65g, the Topres should be lighter...
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Offline BucklingSpring

  • Posts: 1613
Topre 55g heavier than Cherry 55g?
« Reply #13 on: Tue, 24 May 2011, 07:39:36 »
Quote from: ripster;350277
Topres feel heavier because Work=FxD.  It's an integral calculus kinda thing.


Wrong application formula and yes it's calculus. You need to calculate the surface under the graph. Finding a function to emulate MX key force will be a pain in the bull's a$$. Topre feels heavier because it has a larger surface. You can also use the average force to "approximate" the overall feeling.
 
Quote from: dotancohen;350630
So you are saying that the Topres must be pushed further down than the Cherries? I understand that they both activate at 2mm depression. Oh my. I've never even touched a bull penis. I wonder what I've been missing.


Unless you master boob clouding, it's not just the actuation point. It also depends which switch we are talking about. eg Black has a fairly long travel.

Avoid touching bull penis' at all costs. A tornado hits a US house everytime one is touched.
 
Quote from: ch_123;350640
Given that 55g Cherry switches actually have a peak force of 65g, the Topres should be lighter...


Do you have seat-of-the-pants experience? Forget about calculus and bull anatomy. The 55g Topre feels heavier, I swear.
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In memory of smallfry 1996-2013
Boards I own, click ->
More
Ducky x2 (9008G2 Pro PBT/MX Green and Mini MX Red), Matias x2 (QP and Mini QP Dampened ALPS), Topre RealForce x4 (87U 55g/Digilog case, 103U-UW & 104UG High-Profile x2), Filco Majestouch x2 (TKL MX Blue & V2 AI 104 MX Blue), IBM-M x2 (BS & RD), Unicomp-M x5 (BS black on black x2, BS Ivory x2, QT Ultra-Classic), Deck x4 (Legend MX Black & MX Clear, Hassium & Francium w/ MX Brown), DAS III (MX Blue), KBT Pure Pro 60% (MX Red), NMB-RT8256CW+ x2 (black space invader), XArmor U9BL-S (MX Brown) given for free to someone I hate, CM X2 (Trigger/MX Green + Storm TKL/NovaTouch), TVS GOLD (MX Blue) and a many many more (NMB, DELL, MS, ATT, KeyTronic, Etc...)

Offline NimbleRabit

  • Posts: 137
Topre 55g heavier than Cherry 55g?
« Reply #14 on: Tue, 24 May 2011, 08:07:38 »
Quote from: dotancohen;350629
45 activation, after you've gotten past the 55g bump. So one still needs to press with 55 grams of force to register a keypress.

Where did you see that the bump on a brown is 55g?  I don't believe that's true, and when I try stacking nickels on a key it activates after 9 rather than 11.
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Offline Surly73

  • Posts: 425
Topre 55g heavier than Cherry 55g?
« Reply #15 on: Tue, 24 May 2011, 09:35:49 »
Quote from: dotancohen;350630
So you are saying that the Topres must be pushed further down than the Cherries? I understand that they both activate at 2mm depression.


 
I don't think that's true.  I do believe that the tactile bump is higher and stiffer on the Topres.  That means a little more resistance in the early stroke with a 'pop' down to a soft-landing bottom out.  I don't have it in front of me to play with at the moment (on a model M right now).  I've found the browns very easy to begin to press, thus enhancing my perception of key-to-key flow.  The tactile feedback on the cherry is due to friction over the plastic nub and not the collapse of a rubber dome like on the Topre.  I think it's simple mechanics that the nub can give a smaller and more precise tactile bump than a collapsing dome.

As I stated, I love-love-love the Topre key feel when playing with the board compared to anything else I've tried but I just can't get up to the same max speed in 55g trim.
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Offline BucklingSpring

  • Posts: 1613
Topre 55g heavier than Cherry 55g?
« Reply #16 on: Tue, 24 May 2011, 16:20:05 »
Quote from: ripster;350722
lol - Viagra is in the spellchecker but lol isn't.


It's because the president do not use LoL.
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In memory of smallfry 1996-2013
Boards I own, click ->
More
Ducky x2 (9008G2 Pro PBT/MX Green and Mini MX Red), Matias x2 (QP and Mini QP Dampened ALPS), Topre RealForce x4 (87U 55g/Digilog case, 103U-UW & 104UG High-Profile x2), Filco Majestouch x2 (TKL MX Blue & V2 AI 104 MX Blue), IBM-M x2 (BS & RD), Unicomp-M x5 (BS black on black x2, BS Ivory x2, QT Ultra-Classic), Deck x4 (Legend MX Black & MX Clear, Hassium & Francium w/ MX Brown), DAS III (MX Blue), KBT Pure Pro 60% (MX Red), NMB-RT8256CW+ x2 (black space invader), XArmor U9BL-S (MX Brown) given for free to someone I hate, CM X2 (Trigger/MX Green + Storm TKL/NovaTouch), TVS GOLD (MX Blue) and a many many more (NMB, DELL, MS, ATT, KeyTronic, Etc...)

Offline BucklingSpring

  • Posts: 1613
Topre 55g heavier than Cherry 55g?
« Reply #17 on: Tue, 24 May 2011, 16:24:40 »
Quote from: ripster;350722
spanking brand new Switch Stiffness Wiki here

 
Very nice work, thank you for the compilation.
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In memory of smallfry 1996-2013
Boards I own, click ->
More
Ducky x2 (9008G2 Pro PBT/MX Green and Mini MX Red), Matias x2 (QP and Mini QP Dampened ALPS), Topre RealForce x4 (87U 55g/Digilog case, 103U-UW & 104UG High-Profile x2), Filco Majestouch x2 (TKL MX Blue & V2 AI 104 MX Blue), IBM-M x2 (BS & RD), Unicomp-M x5 (BS black on black x2, BS Ivory x2, QT Ultra-Classic), Deck x4 (Legend MX Black & MX Clear, Hassium & Francium w/ MX Brown), DAS III (MX Blue), KBT Pure Pro 60% (MX Red), NMB-RT8256CW+ x2 (black space invader), XArmor U9BL-S (MX Brown) given for free to someone I hate, CM X2 (Trigger/MX Green + Storm TKL/NovaTouch), TVS GOLD (MX Blue) and a many many more (NMB, DELL, MS, ATT, KeyTronic, Etc...)
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