Key Switches

[useless_people]

So I recently received a CM Storm Quickfire with MX Blues. When I got it I didn't really think about how it would change my gaming, such as easily double tapping the key for CS:S. So I was wondering, if I ordered some new switches, MX Reds or MX Blacks, which would be better and how would I go about changing out the switches? I only want to do this for a few keys and don't want to have to buy a new keyboard. Would it be worth it even if it might feel weird typing with them?

[daniel0731ex]

Don't change. Blues are the best.

The jumping slider in the blue switches resets fast enough that it's really not much slower than linear switches in practice.

However, I do advise you to avoid browns because it has all the drawbacks of clicky and linear switches and the advantages are minimal.
It is only good for typing, honestly.


EDIT: I don't play CS but, does it require multiple keypresses like in RTS games? Because if it is double tapping as opposed to raw speed, the blue switches might actually be better.
Mechanically, all switches are more than capable to produce insane APMs. Linear switches are "fast" in the sense that it allows our finger to stay near the activation point, so it takes very little movement to repeat keystrokes. In other words, it is our sluggish human muscles that are accomodated by the switches, not the switches having mechanical limitations that makes it unable to catch up to our lighting-fast fingers.
Anyways, back about double-tapping, the blues may be better because the tactile bump tells you when the switch is ready for another keypress. On linear switches, you need to be absolutely familiar with the location of the activation point to be able to double-tap accurately at the limit without missing a stroke.

[naranja]

since the storm isn't pcb mounted, i believe that if you wanted to switch switch types, you'd have to desolder/solder different switches on. That's quite a commitment since, you're not sure on which switches you want yet. I'd definately try out different switch boards before you try modding it, but that's just me.

However, I do suggest you to avoid browns because it has all the drawbacks of clicky and linear switches and the advantages are minimal.
It is only good for typing, honestly.

I don't quite agree with this, (don't just as much people or more prefer browns for gaming than blues?). How can it have the drawback of linear switches if it's a tactile switch? All in all, it's all about your personal switch preference.

[daniel0731ex]

since the storm isn't pcb mounted, i believe that if you wanted to switch switch types, you'd have to desolder/solder different switches on. That's quite a commitment since, you're not sure on which switches you want yet. I'd definately try out different switch boards before you try modding it, but that's just me.



I don't quite agree with this, (don't just as much people or more prefer browns for gaming than blues?). How can it have the drawback of linear switches if it's a tactile switch? All in all, it's all about your personal switch preference.

No, it is not just preferece. The switch mechanics backs up my argument

Compared to blues, the tactile bump is too subtle to be noticed when typing normally. Heck, the tactility point does not even match up with the activation point; you still have a little distance go after the peak force before actually hitting the activation point. What's even weirder is that the reset point of the browns comes BEFORE the tactile peak.
Blue switches are much more precise -- the tactile bump guarentees activation, and the reset point is AFTER the upward bump (which is more logical).

Compared to linear switches, the bump of the browns simply gets in the way of repeated keystrokes. On the blues, you could actually feel the reset point (and it actually passes the upward bump faster than browns because of the loose slider), whereas on linear switches the muscle memory is quite easy to develop. But for browns, since the reset point is somewhere like halfway through the bump, it is quite difficult not to pass thorugh it all the way. Thus you need very, very precise muscle memory in order to double-tap as fast as linear or even blues.

The myth of browns being faster than blues is completely psychological.

In a nutshell:
Brown - perceived sluggishness of the tactile bump plus the need for muscle memory of linear switches.

[naranja]

I'd still have to disagree.

The myth of browns being faster than blues is completely psychological.

In a nutshell:
Brown - perceived sluggishness of the tactile bump plus the need for muscle memory of linear switches.

Despite the tactility point and the activation point not matching in the browns, the actuation force of browns are still lower than blues which makes it easier to doubletap. You're making browns sound just like a linear switch; although the tactile bump isn't as pronounced as the blues, it is still noticeable when typing.

[naranja]

Compared to blues, the tactile bump is too subtle to be noticed when typing normally. Heck, the tactility point does not even match up with the activation point; you still have a little distance go after the peak force before actually hitting the activation point. What's even weirder is that the reset point of the browns comes BEFORE the tactile peak. Blue switches are much more precise -- the tactile bump guarentees activation, and the reset point is AFTER the upward bump (which is more logical).

Ok, I had to double check on this. Although it is still true that the tactility point and the activation point don't match up in the brown switches, they don't for the blue switch as well. I'm not entirely sure what you mean about the reset point coming before the tactile peak of browns. It seems that it does that for blues instead and not the browns.

But for browns, since the reset point is somewhere like halfway through the bump, it is quite difficult not to pass thorugh it all the way.

Again, I think you mean Blues.
http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=11338&d=1277307714
http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=11339&d=1277307720

[limmy]

I have changed couple of switches from reds to blues, browns, and clears. I think ordering individual switches would be the cheapest way to try out different switches.

In fact, I think some switches are better for some purpose. I prefer Cherry blues to linear switches for modifier keys that needs constant pressure. Due to Cherry blue's structure, it requires less force in order to keep it pressed and plus the tactile feel helps me not to press the keys harder than necessary. I didn't like the sound, so I applied some lubricant and I managed to reduce the clicking sound. (however, the reduced sound is not uniform in my blue switches. It is tricky business.)

wasdkeyboards sells brown, black, red, and blue Cherry switches.
mouser and digikey carry only black, clear, and blue switches at better price.

In your case, you would need to desolder and solder switches in order to swap the switches. (I didn't have to for most switches because my Poker is PCB mounted.) If you do not know how to solder, then it could be a little risky mod because PCB could be damaged if you are not careful.

[useless_people]

You mean just the WASD cluster?  Very weird.

That and the Q key to switch weapons. I know, I never would have guessed.

[daniel0731ex]

Despite the tactility point and the activation point not matching in the browns, the actuation force of browns are still lower than blues which makes it easier to doubletap. You're making browns sound just like a linear switch; although the tactile bump isn't as pronounced as the blues, it is still noticeable when typing.

Whether the bump is noticable or not depends on the person. My main point here is that the tactile bump is an "artificial" one placed to provide an illllusion of feedback, rather than an accurate indicator of the switchs' state. Therefore the tactility on the browns are only relevant for typists. For gaming it does not indicate resetting but only slows it down, whereas blues provide a correct feedback even if it sacrifices a little speed.

Ok, I had to double check on this. Although it is still true that the tactility point and the activation point don't match up in the brown switches, they don't for the blue switch as well. I'm not entirely sure what you mean about the reset point coming before the tactile peak of browns. It seems that it does that for blues instead and not the browns.

You are looking at the graph blindly and not thinking on your own. The graph shows the force in terms of displacement of the switch, but in practice it needs to be looked at in terms of distance. The downward and upward strokes must be viewed seperately.
In addition, muscle percieves force better than position. A graph plotted in terms of position is just not very relevant when analyzing the switch in action. A switch action GIF would be much more useful here.

I have found that the perception of keyfeel is influenced rather more by kinematics than dynamics. The Geekhackers scientists have been looking at only dynamics. You need to analyze both aspects at the same time to get the big picture.

Again, I think you mean Blues.
http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=11338&d=1277307714
http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=11339&d=1277307720

Have you actually tried brown switches before?




TL;DR: You need Force vs Time rather than Force vs Position graph.

[hazeluff]

The browns still takes less force to pass the activation/pressure point.

The "feel" is different and it's a matter of personal preference on which one is "better".

I don't about this "Sluggishness" argument.

[daniel0731ex]

The browns still takes less force to pass the activation/pressure point.

The "feel" is different and it's a matter of personal preference on which one is "better".

I don't about this "Sluggishness" argument.

While I agree that personal preference has a much higher influence on the question of "which switch would I like", it is not a valid argument to dismiss this matter of science. It's like saying "Mac or PC is a matter of personal preference, so they are all the same and is not worth analyzing."

[hazeluff]

While I agree that personal preference has a much higher influence on the question of "which switch would I like", it is not a valid argument to dismiss this matter of science. It's like saying "Mac or PC is a matter of personal preference, so they are all the same and is not worth analyzing."

I agree with the bit about dismiss the science of this. But the "Mac or PC is a matter of personal preference, so they are all the same and is not worth analyzing." I don't quite agree. We dismiss the analysis of the physical bit, because people don't need to understand it. They pick based on what they experiance. To those who actually need to know how the specifics work/want to improve them, they will need to analyse it. But most peopel just ask "Which ones is better for me". And we just tell them "This one should give you a better experiance". They don't need to know the mechanics.

I don't think there is a physical reason why blues are worse. Psychologically/preferentially the different feel in tactility is very different and it seems most prefer brown.

I think the main thing people have with blue is the fact that on blues for double tapping you either have to:

-Wait for reset and the repress to get the tactility (more distance traveled)

-double tap with the 2nd tap having no tactility (which feels "weird" i guess since one click has tactility but the other doesn't)

I think the reason blues would be slower is the user wanting the tactility for the 2nd tap. And I guess if you hit the keys really light (like just enough to pass activation) then maybe because of the higher force for activation on blues make it more tiring/slower.

Force vs time and Force vs distance is very very similar. I can't imagine the switch causing a large change in momentum/force of your finger pressing.

I'm reconsidering getting blues just to see how proper gaming on it is like, because I've only typed on them.

[limmy]

For double tapping, I think browns are better because of the following reason. In blues, actuation and reset points are not the same hence you would have to travel more in order to get double tap, while in browns you can use it just as linear switch. If you try to press blues multiple times quickly, some times you don't go pass the reset point.

If you type fast enough, the tactile bump isn't really felt in browns. (You can still feel the difference between linear and brown switches, but what I am saying is the detection of the tactile bump plays very small role if you press keys fast.)

[hazeluff]

I realised what I wrote was quite bull... since the same applies to brown...But I think the difference of tactility of brown and blue makes all the difference to the feel of the doubletap.

[naranja]

You are looking at the graph blindly and not thinking on your own. The graph shows the force in terms of displacement of the switch, but in practice it needs to be looked at in terms of distance. The downward and upward strokes must be viewed seperately.
In addition, muscle percieves force better than position. A graph plotted in terms of position is just not very relevant when analyzing the switch in action. A switch action GIF would be much more useful here.

This doesn't address your original point about the reset point being before the tactile peak for browns.

Have you actually tried brown switches before?

yes, also own blues.

see: http://www.corporate.qpad.se/modules/news/article.php?storyid=254

[useless_people]

Well all of this stuff is way to long for me to read through on a saturday morning so I think I'll just stick to my blues for now. If I really want blacks I'll just buy a Leopold, Since it's a perfect excuse to but one

[useless_people]

Well you post everywhere so it wouldn't seem like you would have time to read all the responses.

[Jamesbeat]

.
Mechanically, all switches are more than capable to produce insane APMs. Linear switches are "fast" in the sense that it allows our finger to stay near the activation point, so it takes very little movement to repeat keystrokes. In other words, it is our sluggish human muscles that are accomodated by the switches, not the switches having mechanical limitations that makes it unable to catch up to our lighting-fast fingers.
Anyways, back about double-tapping, the blues may be better because the tactile bump tells you when the switch is ready for another keypress. On linear switches, you need to be absolutely familiar with the location of the activation point to be able to double-tap accurately at the limit without missing a stroke.

I had to smile when I read this.
I'm not a gamer, but I do shoot pistols, and this sounds just like a description of what you do during a real double-tap.
There is a device on a semiauto pistol called the 'disconnector', which stops the pistol from firing out of battery or going full auto. It's there because our sluggish human fingers can't release the trigger faster than the pistol can cycle.
Because the disconnector needs to be reset in between shots, you have to learn to feel for the click as you release the trigger if you want to fire a rapid second shot.
You don't have to release the trigger all the way, only enough to allow the disconnector to reset, so a skilled shooter can fire very rapid double taps if he/she commits the disconnect reset point to muscle memory.

Just thought it was funny that a similar skill can be learned with a keyboard switch...

[silat]

Well you post everywhere so it wouldn't seem like you would have time to read all the responses.

Sometimes he does not even read what he types.

[silat]

And what you type is not worth reading.

But you read it anyway..

[silat]

Your sig is offensive to American Muslims.

It's in Comic Sans.

Wow.. You have fallen so very far....