New user - old keyboard fanatic

[mr_a500]

 

[kishy]

Hi! I'm glad I found this great forum. I've found lots of useful information here.

I'm a bit of a keyboard fanatic - getting more fanatical all the time. I thought I had reached the limit, but now I see people here doing ALPS switch mods and other crazy crap. It's great!

I think keyboards from the 80's are best. In the late 80's/early 90's the cost cutting began and keyboards went to ****. My favourite keyboards are -surprisingly- the early TI-99/4A (they vary - some are good, some suck), the TRS-80 Model III (sculpted keys feel like hardened rubber), the IBM Model F AT keyboard (used to type this) and the Apple Extended Keyboard (NOT Extended II, which sucks).

My dream keyboard would be either a buckling spring (feel: AT like, not M) or old-style ALPS mechanism with double-shot black keys with white lettering (centred), spherical keytops (not cylindrical), stepped, possibly angled by row. I'd want some with Amiga layout for A500 to A4000 and some with similar layout with extra keys (only the necessary ones, no "media" crap) for PC/Mac use. I'd like either a metal case or thick plastic that doesn't flex. (the kind they don't seem to make anymore)

I've got a good collection of keyboards, but have never tried the Memotex MTX512, Victor 9000, DEC VT 52 (or 100), Sun3, BASIS 108 or Wicat 150. I'd like to hear if anybody has ever tried them and what they think of them.

I think I recognize you...Vintage Computer Forums?

In any event welcome to Geekhack. May your thread be blessed with Offtopicness quickly.

[ch_123]

I've used an LK-101 (DEC VT100 keyboard). There's a thread about it here.

Pretty nice keyboard, quite big but yet when compared with an IBM, it feels disproportionately light relative to it's size. It has linear switches like most keyboards of the day. It's relatively alright to type on, but definitely nothing to write home about. I'd take just about any Cherry/Alps/IBM/Topre keyboard over it any day.

I'd imagine the VT52 would have had a similar keyboard. I remember hearing that they used to beep when you pressed a key... I'm not sure whether that was optional or not. Apparently that was relatively common on terminal keyboards of the day, even with IBM ones.

The LK-201 keyboard of the VT220 and later is probably the worst keyboard I've ever encountered.

[kishy]

Hey, mr_a500, I looked over the thread your sig links to.

Once upon a time I downloaded a [decentralized method of sharing files which can also be said as a noun] full of NeXT stuff. I'm positive I have the OS somewhere.

What with compatibility and file type issues I don't know how much I can help you get your NeXT back up and running, but if you need the software there's a good chance I may be able to help.

Additionally I may be able to source you a hard drive too. Get in touch with the specifics of what you need if you want to pursue it.

[mr_a500]

Hey, mr_a500, I looked over the thread your sig links to.

Once upon a time I downloaded a [decentralized method of sharing files which can also be said as a noun] full of NeXT stuff. I'm positive I have the OS somewhere.

What with compatibility and file type issues I don't know how much I can help you get your NeXT back up and running, but if you need the software there's a good chance I may be able to help.

Additionally I may be able to source you a hard drive too. Get in touch with the specifics of what you need if you want to pursue it.

That would be awesome. Thanks!

Would that OS be in the format of a drive image? That's really what I need. I have a SCSI hard drive and I have a SCSI card in the PC that can connect to 50 pin SCSI. I was hoping to DD the image to SCSI drive from Linux. That seems like the easiest way. That way I can bypass any tedious drive preparation & OS install problems. Also I wouldn't need an external SCSI CD-ROM (which I don't have and can't find at a reasonable price).


@ch_123

Nice review of the VT-100 keyboard. That's the first time I've ever heard anyone talk about one. It sounds like what I thought - reasonably good, but nothing spectacular.

[kishy]

Well, after sifting though easily 250-300 optical disks...I found it!

Contents of the disk I had burned:



I knew this would come in handy someday...that's why I nabbed it while I could.

What's the best way to get files to you?

[msiegel]

never thought i'd say this kishy, but you are the winrar
XD

[kishy]

never thought i'd say this kishy, but you are the winrar
XD

Well I'll be...a positive comment from a geekhack member to a geekhack member!

Lol, thanks. The true Winrar is however whoever (however whoever lololol) put together that wonderful collection of ridiculously useful files.

mr_a500 presumably you could throw a longer cable on the internal SCSI interface, connect a CD-ROM to it (maybe use the PSU from a typical PC to run it, would need to be AT type so it'll run properly without a motherboard). It would appear there's a boot floppy image in this assortment of files which hopefully would take care of getting you to a CD-bootable point.

[mr_a500]

Well, after sifting though easily 250-300 optical disks...I found it!

I knew this would come in handy someday...that's why I nabbed it while I could.

What's the best way to get files to you?

Wow, thanks for going through the disks for me. I didn't want to cause that much trouble.

Pity, you only seem to have the ISO and boot disks, no drive image. (I suppose one can't have everything ) It looks like I'll have to get a SCSI CD-ROM.  I don't have any - either internal or external.

How could I get those files? Do you have an FTP server?

I don't want you to have to go through those disks again, but do you happen to have the IRIX install too? My SGI Indy is unfortunately in the same pitiful state.

[kishy]

Wow, thanks for going through the disks for me. I didn't want to cause that much trouble.

Pity, you only seem to have the ISO and boot disks, no drive image. (I suppose one can't have everything ) It looks like I'll have to get a SCSI CD-ROM.  I don't have any - either internal or external.

How could I get those files? Do you have an FTP server?

I don't want you to have to go through those disks again, but do you happen to have the IRIX install too? My SGI Indy is unfortunately in the same pitiful state.

No Irix anything...I was going to get into SGI (with two Indys...Indies?, actually) but decided against it. x86 is what just makes sense to me, lol.

Not FTP...expect a PM shortly. If the method I've chosen doesn't work for you I'll do my best to fix it.

Oh and no trouble at all going through the disks. It was about time I figured out what all I've got.

[ch_123]

PM sent about IRIX.

Kishy, are those NeXTStep images you're putting up to download, if so, PM me.

No Irix anything...I was going to get into SGI (with two Indys...Indies?, actually) but decided against it. x86 is what just makes sense to me, lol.

They're very nice machines, they have that 'designed from the ground-up' feel, like Macs, but without the superficial bollocksology attached.

You are very limited with what you can do with them however. IRIX is the only OS really worth running on them (unless you want to turn one into a server or firewall or the like) and software for IRIX tends to be a few years out of date... such are the joys of having a closed OS that's been out of development for four years.

On top of this, you have to deal with the fact that they are quite slow. The impression that I get is that everything except for the two most recent ones (Fuel and Tezro) tend to be somewhat limited. Another popular one is the Octane, but this is supposedly a 25kg behemoth. Despite all this, I do want another SGI machine... probably an O2.

[TexasFlood]

I have fond memories of SGI boxes from back in the day...  Dual head Indigo 2s, Octanes, O2s, Challenges, Origins big & small.  Sigh.....  Somewhere around here I have a little SGI toy, it's a little server, Octane maybe, you wind it up and it walks.  Man, haven't seen that thing in a while, wonder if I still have it? :-D

[mr_a500]

What... nobody here has tried a Victor 9000 or Sun3 keyboard? What about a Sun1?

Does anybody agree with me about the awesomeness of the early TI-99/4A keyboard ("square key") or TRS-80 Model III? (talking about quality feel... not layout)

I'd also like to hear about any "insanely amazing" keyboards which I haven't yet tried - keyboards with a combination of amazing feel and quality construction.

[itlnstln]

Buckling Springs, Cherry browns/blues, and Topres (HHKB, specifically) - not necessarily in that order.  Model Ms probably would fit the "insanely amazing" criteria the best.  Filco and Topre have quality construction and pretty good feel.  The HHKB (Topre) as the above and a pretty awesome layout.

[mr_a500]

I've got some Model M keyboards (1986, 1991). For buckling spring, I definitely prefer the IBM AT Model F.

So, Cherry blue switch and Topres HHKB are best? How would they compare with, say, an Apple Extended I, an Amiga 1000 keyboard, an SGI granite keyboard or a NeXT non-ADB keyboard?  (I've got all those, so I can use those as a basis for comparison)

[itlnstln]

The Cherry and Topre switches will be both smoother and lighter than the ALPS switches in the keyboards you mentioned. I would recommend a Cherry brown or blue keyboard to start as they are fairly cheap for some models.  
 
You can get a Compaq MX11800 with Cherry browns for around $20-30 off eBay.  There might even be a member here that would sell one to you.  The layout is a little weird for long-term use, but at least you would to check it out without unloading a ton of cash for it.   Adesso just put out a Cherry blue 'board priced at $60 that looks pretty interesting; I think it starts shipping next month.  There is a thread in the Keyboards forum discussing it.  
 
Topres, on the other hand, are expensive all the way around, so there really isn't a way to try before you buy unless you know someone with a Topre-based 'board.  That said, I just got an HHKB this past Monday, and I really like it.  The switches aren't all that magical, but they are very nice, and the layout is terrific.  If you have the cash, I highly recommend it.

[mr_a500]

I've tried all these:

FULL TRAVEL LINEAR UNKNOWN MANUFACTURER
Commodore CBM 8031
Atari 800XL
Radio Shack TRS-80
TI-99
Tandy 128K Color Computer
Commodore 64

Didn't care for any of them.

You have to be more specific. Was that TRS-80 a Model I, II or III? Was that TI-99 a 4 or 4A (4A black or beige)? There were at least five different Atari 800XL keyboards. There were at least three different C64 keyboards.

I have two TI-99/4A computers that look nearly identical. One has an ordinary keyboard - not that great. The other has probably the best feel of any keyboard I have ever tried.

[TexasFlood]

I had some favorites from that period, including the Commodore 128 for a larger keyboard and SX-64 for a more compact one.  To be honest I can't remember how good they really were just fond memories.

[ricercar]

I have that SX-64 keyboard. Back in 87-89 my friends (accustomed to Apple ][, Macintosh, Amiga, Atari, IBM or standard C64 keyboards) would complain that the SX-64 keyboard was the worst they ever used. I didn't agree.

It's waiting on my shelf for a USB or PS/2 controller. It has white sliders with springs but I've been too chicken to take it apart to see the underlying mechanism.  I have a miniITX board in the SX-84 case, with a LCD and stealthed DVD drive (slot loading DVD, disguised behind the original 5-1/4 floppy panel). It's going to be my kids' DVD player when I get motivated.

[TexasFlood]

I have that SX-64 keyboard. Back in 87-89 my friends (accustomed to Apple ][, Macintosh, Amiga, Atari, IBM or standard C64 keyboards) would complain that the SX-64 keyboard was the worst they ever used. I didn't agree.

It's waiting on my shelf for a USB or PS/2 controller. It has white sliders with springs but I've been too chicken to take it apart to see the underlying mechanism.  I have a miniITX board in the SX-84 case, with a LCD and stealthed DVD drive (slot loading DVD, disguised behind the original 5-1/4 floppy panel). It's going to be my kids' DVD player when I get motivated.

Neat idea.  The SX-64 cable looks to be a simple matrix run over a DB25 male/male cable as described here and here.  You might want to look over "THE COMMODORE SX-64 DIAGNOSING PROBLEMS, DISASSEMBLY INSTRUCTIONS, COMMON PROBLEMS, MODS." "THE SX KEYBOARD: DISASSEMBLY AND CLEANING" section for some details about keyboard construction.

[mr_a500]

Are you saying you could use that SX-64 keyboard on a PC? That's definitely a neat idea... but from my memory (I played with one last year), that keyboard isn't really that great.

I'd much rather find a way to use an Amiga 1000 keyboard on a PC. The A1000 keyboard also isn't the best, but I think it has Cherry switches and I like the layout and small size.

[TexasFlood]

Are you saying you could use that SX-64 keyboard on a PC? That's definitely a neat idea... but from my memory (I played with one last year), that keyboard isn't really that great.

I'd much rather find a way to use an Amiga 1000 keyboard on a PC. The A1000 keyboard also isn't the best, but I think it has Cherry sliders and I like the layout and small size.

Not without some work, but anything is possible.  Once back in the day I took a PC keyboard, cut all the board traces to isolate the keys.  Then I connected all the individual key switches with jumper wires to make it work on a Commodore system, basically the opposite of what we're talking about here.  Don't ask me why I did it, don't remember, had a wild hair I guess and too much time, and wire, on my hands.

[mr_a500]

Not without some work, but anything is possible.  Once back in the day I took a PC keyboard, cut all the board traces to isolate the keys.  Then I connected all the individual key switches with jumper wires to make it work on a Commodore system, basically the opposite of what we're talking about here.  Don't ask me why I did it, don't remember, had a wild hair I guess and too much time, and wire, on my hands.

Impressive... but that's way beyond the level of effort I'm capable of these days. I'm now surrounded by half-assembled semi-functional computers and I can't seem to get motivated to repair them and put them back together. Many times I've spent days working on a project and after all those hours of tedious effort, the damn thing still doesn't work properly. I tell you, computers are sent from hell to waste our time.

[ricercar]

Even though the original keyboard matrix is dead simple (just row column, IIRC; i built a custom Mayan Keypad for mine back in the 80s. Calendar numbers, not ripster's dots and dashes) I admit I'm looking for a laptop keyboard that will fit into the SX-64 keyboard shell. The work of a new controller is daunting to a hard working job seeker like myself.