Kinesis Advantage Thoughts

[deadghost]

I just received a refurbed kinesis advantage for $250. So far, I'm greatly disappointed in the quality and feel. Most of the keys make a nasty sounding ping. I thought mx browns would feel pretty close to blues but this feels only a bit better than rubber dome. My friend's blue black widow felt miles ahead. I'm RMAing it back and hoping this board was just a dud.

As for layout and ergonomics, I love it.

Customer service was probably so-so to high middling. It certainly was more personable as this seems like a smallish company and one guy was handling all my complaints. Rick seemed a bit flabbergasted when I mentioned how terrible the pings were which caused me some annoyance but overall it was handled well. If it turns out the board is defective, I get refunded return shipping and get shipped another board; otherwise, I'd just be given a refund less shipping.

It doesn't get detected in BIOS/grub but that's more likely to be a mobo issue.

Took me half a day to go from 25wpm to 60wpm. Learning curve isn't very steep. Alot of keys used in programming are in odd places but that can be remapped.

There's no restocking fee but if you return it you pay shipping both ways. 60 day trial period, probably from the day they ship out.

I want to say it's way overpriced but I don't think I received a typical experience.

[dorkvader]

Welcome to Geekhack, and thanks for the review!

I only tried an ancient kineses, so I couldn't really evaluate the keyfeel. I would agree that the layout is pretty easy to pick up, but only if you do decent touch typing anyway. Have you considered the one with cherry red keyswitches instead? all the people I know of here really prefer that version.

[deadghost]

I haven't sent it back yet so I can probably request to be sent back a red instead. The blues I tried on the black widow felt very nice and defined. The browns on the advantage feels muddy and ambiguous. I'm a little worried about the lack of tactility but for the most part I only press keys halfway anyways. A huge chunk of my keystrokes don't even register on some rubber domes.

The LF costs $80 more than a refurb brown and I'm already out of my budget; however, I suppose if the feel is greatly improved I am willing to pay the difference. I specifically cheaped out on my desktop build to get a nice keyboard as an i3/i5+ won't really improve user experience.

Anyways, good to be here dorkvader, I am among my people.

[Lanx]

refurb browns could be really bad browns, if you don't want to send them back then imo buy some fresh/new brown switches and try them out, or sounds like you like blues, go solder in some blues into it them.

browns should not feel anywhere near RD's even the worst browns should feel better than RD's.

i have ergowhites

btw why buy a refurb for 250? send it back and buy a new one for 270, imo
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000LVJ9W8/

[deadghost]

If anyone is wondering, the pings on this board sound like the 's' key in this video:

The entire board sounds like that.

[sordna]

Brown switches have that vague/gritty feeling, even on brand new keyboards; it's not really the board's fault.
Owning both kinds, I find the Advantage LF with reds so much better, but I rely on the audible click sound instead of the tactility.

[deadghost]

After trying the board some more I noticed I prefer to just barely press enough for the key to register and don't really like the force necessary to register keys on brown. I don't think I make much use of the bump and would prefer no bump combined with lower actuation force for a lighter floating feel. I don't think I'll make sure of the click sound however.

I'll ask to have them ship a LF over. I'm a little sad about alt location though. It'd be sweet if there was an alt in the space next to backspace.

After less than two days of casually playing a typing test I went from 25wpm to near 70wpm. Learning curve is low and bracket key placements aren't bad. It only looks awkward. The fact there are two '\' keys confuse me. What confuses me more is the left one registers as "<" and ">" on linux.

Pinging sound is still god awful. Wouldn't be able to tolerate using this without headphones.

[sordna]

Good thoughts on the switches, I think you will like the LF based on what you wrote.

About ping, yes, I get some ping too, it's rather normal for a mechanical keyboard because the switches have springs which are the source of this sound. All my other mechanical keyboards (Poker, TG3, IBM) have varying degrees of ping, that's why I consider it a slightly annoying but actually normal condition.

In one of my Kinesis keyboards I lined the inside of the case with sorbothane to reduce the noise. I also add these o-rings to my keyboards which helps cut down noise too, and make bottoming-out much easier on the fingers.


You know you can remap the keys, right? What I've done is remap the left \ key as Insert (since I use Insert for pasting and I don't want to go to the keypad mode for that). To do this remap you would need to go to keypad mode, then hit Pgm+F12 then hit the left \ to copy the Insert function (since it behaves as an Insert in keypad mode) then hit Keypad to exit keypad, then hit the left \ key again to "paste" the Insert operation to, then Pgm+F12 to exit remap mode.

This will make it work as Insert outside keypad mode as well. As a linux user, another remap I find convenient is swap Tab and Delete so I can hit Tab with my thumb for command completion in the shell, swap Escape and End so I can hit Escape with my thumb in vim, and swap the up/down arrows so they follow the index-finger-down, middle-finger-up arrangement that vi has with the JK keys.

You can remap any key to any key you want; you can make one of the \ keys an Alt if it suits your fancy better. You can even have multiple keys do the same function, so you can have more than 2 Alt keys if you wish.

If you are inclined to modify your keyboard and add extra keys, check my Adding extra keys to your Kinesis Advantage wiki

[deadghost]

ho boy I might be going down the rabbit hole with this one. I'm also a vim/pentadactyl user and currently have capslock mapped to esc. Right now I'm thinking of moving esc to del and tab to home for alt+tab. Latter is really iffy but I need to figure out something for alt+tab. Tab on end seems alright. I use esc more than tab so that belongs on del. If I can't figure it out then I may need to do some surgery.

I am fairly certain this specific board is defective though. The pings are LOUD. I can hear them in a quiet room with the clicks on.

[sordna]

About Alt-Tab and 2-key combos: Doing them one handed puts a huge stress on your hands, so try to do them with opposite hands (hit Alt with the right hand and Tab with the left). Same goes for shifted letters, you gotta use the opposite shift every time. It takes a bit of discipline at first, but you will realize the benefits later.

[Findecanor]

It doesn't get detected in BIOS/grub but that's more likely to be a mobo issue.

When this happens, it can often be fixed by disabling a BIOS function called "Fast boot" or similar.

[deadghost]

I sent it back to kinesis and Rick said the sound is normal. That's rather disappointing but I'm still game if the sorbothane + o-ring combo halves the ping volume.

Rick offered to give a 100% refund including shipping to and from which is rather generous. He also noticed this thread on geekhack. It's definitely among my top experiences for customer service.

[deadghost]

Decided not to go for it. The following is an excerpt of what I sent kinesis and sums up my thoughts:

"I've mulled it over and decided that I don't want to open up and mod a $300 keyboard to make it usable for me.

Layout - Love it
Key feel - I probably just don't like browns so that's just personal preference
Board feel - It's light so it feels cheap. Heavier things feel more expensive. It makes a disappointing initial impression but probably doesn't affect actual board usage.

Deal breaker is the combination of price and ping. If the price was half or even $200, I'd be more willing to open it up and tolerate small imperfections. At $300 retail price, it better be near perfect. Just my .02. "

Anyone on the fence about trying a kinesis should go for it, customer service will treat you right. As it is right now, the keyboard is not for me.

[Icarium]

It's expensive because it is a niche product. People buy it because they need or really want that special layout.
If you're looking for a keyboard with a less ergonomic layout but build quality optimized like crazy the best I can think of off the top of my head would be a Realforce or HHKB Type S. The're even more expensive, though.

Personally I don't notice keyfeel unless when I'm first trying out a board but I do feel my joints aching.

[Lanx]

your paying for a concave mechanical switch matrix layout keyboard that's programmable, is the price justified? when the only competitor costs more (maltron) and the next one costs less but offers less as well(TE), well that's really about it, you're paying for structure basically. Surprisingly, you can just buy 2 replacement concave (or just get red placements) for 70bucks, so that already tells you the kinesis, is STUPIDLY marked up by at least 200%, but again, with no competitors really in this field, they still flourish.

Did we talk about used (or barely used) kinesis on ebay? i've said in multiple threads i've gotten 3, old white kinesis (but barely used, if ever, cuz of variety of reasons from it was a present, to being too hard to use and regulated to storage) for 50bucks.

Honestly you sound like you WANT to and HAVE to mod, in order to be happy, many of us feel that, the kinesis is far from perfect, it's an outdated old 20 year old design. See if you can ebay for a decent kinesis and have fun modding it.

[dorkvader]

Did we talk about used (or barely used) kinesis on ebay? i've said in multiple threads i've gotten 3, old white kinesis (but barely used, if ever, cuz of variety of reasons from it was a present, to being too hard to use and regulated to storage) for 50bucks.

Shutup shutup shut up! I'm watching those quietly. Even the broken one. I'll teensy it if I have to.

[Lanx]

yea but those keyboards are like really really really used.

[Input Nirvana]

<inhales a HUGE breathe>

Soooo, you're a programmer and use a keyboard as much as any human....pretty much at the TOP of the high usage scale.
You have recognized the need for a professional tool to perform better, faster, easier and more ergonomically.
Sounds to me you know what you do and what you need, in principle...but maybe not the exact detail.

I'm gonna throw up on this thread now, so get a wipey-cloth and have a seat.

First, I wanted to tell deadghost: you got a lot of valuable info from the people in this thread. Did you notice how everyone offered a different part of the puzzle and possible solutions? It's taken a couple years and a lot of people and a fair amount of effort for that information to be fleshed out, identified, dissected, solved, and made presentable. I know, I've been here to see it. If you posted the same OP 3 years ago, good chance no one would have responded, or you would have gotten one meaningful post, and that's about it.

Now on to the good stuff:
When Kinesis sells a refurbished keyboard...I don't believe it's a real "used" keyboard like you buy on ebay. They have a liberal 60 day return policy...it's my understanding that the majority of their refurbished keyboards are the returns. And their refurbs come with the new keyboard warranty. I have keyboards with serial #30,xxx and my most recent #81,xxx and there is not much of a difference in the brown switches, although obviously there can be. My point is that I don't think the Kinesis refurb is a 15 year old unit And if Rick, who is awesome, but still just a mere mortal, says the keyboard is fine...it's my guess (and others have said here) that you are not a brown switch fan, or at least not yet. Some people detest browns, others love 'em. Fortunately the Kinesis is also available from Kinesis with reds, a very different feel. I have both reds and browns and I like them both. They serve different purposes. I think several of us here believe you should try red switches, and if you like them, go back to Kinesis for a keyboard with reds. But wait....there's more! You can customize the keyboard in several ways. I'm going to forget the silly statement you made about not optimizing a $300 keyboard. You may not be aware of this, so I'm gonna tell ya.... all the people that have written in this thread have ALL OPTIMIZED THEIR $300 KEYBOARDS! I've cut one in half, added a trackpoint, and other silly stuff. LOL. I understand about budget, believe me, I do. But sometimes our 'budget' is just plain inaccurate and unrealistic. The first question is: Can you get what you want? If yes, the second question is: How much will it cost? But we are still working on your first question....need to find what you want. If you had that in your hands, you may be willing to alter your budget. Regarding the second question, I will tell you this...almost everyone I encounter on these few keyboard forums have reconciled the cost of a Kinesis. Not everyone, but almost everyone. That's a powerful statement, take it for what it is.


Question:
Why did you get a Kinesis? Do you have RSI/or?
If the keyboard cost you less, would you be inclined to modify it? You got the skillz, brudda?
If you don't get a Kinesis, what is your next choice?


Possible solutions to your mentioned keyboard issues:
1-WEIGHT. I was going to coat the interior of the case with liquid pickup truck bed liner... but that costs money and I'm concerned about eating for the rest of this month.
2-PING. Holy crap! Summer of Ping is back to haunt us! Most of us have used O-rings to dampen the keys. About $10
3-SWITCH FEEL. Try o-rings, red switches or both.
4-PRICE. Yea, I feel women cost too much also...but there's a price for everything. Some cost more, some cost less. It's relative.


I'd also like to offer a few thoughts. I wouldn't use the term "outdated" to describe the Kinesis. I don't feel that's accurate. It's not antiquated, or old-fashioned. It can use a couple minor updates, but it is completely and totally usable/fully functional/capable even though it is a 20 year old design physically. The firmware/software is newer. By the way, Kinesis is working on putting a Swiss Army knife under one of the keys. (not really). Keep in mind it is a highly specialized keyboard, and their customer service reflects that. Most people say their customer service is second to none.


Do I have any original, helpful advice? No, I just want to post to feel important.


I gotta go snipe that little turd Dorkvader on ebay now.

[sordna]

Well said, IN.
BTW, for me cost was the least of my concerns. As a busy programmer, I need the best tool I can get to be as productive and comfortable as possible. The Kinesis Advantage is the best production keyboard in the world for my purpose. I don't care if it's light or heavy, quiet or pingy, beautiful or ugly. It's the best combination of shape, comfort, flexibility and features of any keyboard ever made. That doesn't mean it's perfect, no, however it's closest to my ideal keyboard than anything else.
I hope and wish something better comes along some day, because I am never satisfied, but until that time comes, I have no choice but get the best I can, and improve it as much as I can, because I need my work environment to be the best possible. So I'm happily modding my $300 keyboards. My only regret is even though I've been using these keyboards for almost a decade, I only started modding them this year. I should have done it much earlier!

This is the fruit my labor:  http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:26579

An LF with 8 extra keys (including palm keys), o-rings, and lined with sorbothane on the inside. I did the first modification on January 25, 2012 and the last mod on March 7, 2012, thus using the keyboard in its present form for a good 7 months, and I'm loving it.

Typing on it as we speak!

[Icarium]

I love my Kinesis. Even just finished a playthrough of Deus Ex: Human Revolution with it. Would still love to try a Maltron though. Still sad that I missed Jim66 selling his half a year ago.

[PCDMaltron]

I love my Kinesis. Even just finished a playthrough of Deus Ex: Human Revolution with it. Would still love to try a Maltron though. Still sad that I missed Jim66 selling his half a year ago.

Hi Icarium, where abouts are you based? Drop us a PM if necessary!

[Icarium]

I'm in Karlsruhe, Germany.

[islisis]

I've owned two contours, an Essential and Advantage, both Cherry browns. I don't know if this is batch or time related, but the difference in key feel is quite pronounced. The switches on the Essential are lighter and smoother. Especially now that I probably have put equal amount of hours on both, I've become quite suspicious of the switches in the my Advantage, there is much friction in the travel, and several keys now produce scratching sounds from possibly deformed springs. Bought it 4 years ago in a auction so possible just a bad batch of Cherries...? Anyone else notice similar symptoms?

[Lanx]

i will discount the "could be in your head theory" and just think you know there's an issue, so i would then say yea, it's probably a bad batch/old? You live in japan, so i have no idea how kinesis will support you, lately they've done good when members of GH get in touch with support to replace switches and stuff (for a fee), i'd invest in that first, and there is always the option to buy the cheapest, newest cherry brown (or other cherry of your flavor) board and swap switches.

[natas206]

I've owned two contours, an Essential and Advantage, both Cherry browns. I don't know if this is batch or time related, but the difference in key feel is quite pronounced. The switches on the Essential are lighter and smoother. Especially now that I probably have put equal amount of hours on both, I've become quite suspicious of the switches in the my Advantage, there is much friction in the travel, and several keys now produce scratching sounds from possibly deformed springs. Bought it 4 years ago in a auction so possible just a bad batch of Cherries...? Anyone else notice similar symptoms?

We've used the same Cherry brown switches for 20 years, so more than likely the difference you feel is that your Essential keyboard is 10 years old or more whereas your Advantage is newer and hasn't been "broken in" so to speak. The only other difference could be the keycaps. If your Essential is REALLY old there is a slight chance it has double shot keycaps, which have a bit of a different feel overall. The profile of the double shot keycaps were lower if I remember correctly, so it could feel as if they switches are actually lighter.

[mikelanding]

Ya. I can confirmed to Kinesis Advantage keycap had higher profile that the doubleshot ABS keycaps that I purchase separately from Rick (Kinesis Tech Support)
See below photos. Black is from Advantage and White is doubleshot keycap from older Kinesis






Talking about different profile, My current keycaps setting is top and bottom row using higher profile while center 3 row using lower profile keycaps. Like photo below.

[TotalChaos]

Looking at the pic I assume that the F-keys all use membrane switches?

[dorkvader]

Looking at the pic I assume that the F-keys all use membrane switches?

This is correct, as far as I know, though the terminology may be different. From what I remember, they use the same technology as normal remote controls and some phones. I think they use a carbon contact over a PCB. They are not mechanical.

[islisis]

Thanks for all the replies The essential is old but not that old, dark blue home keycaps.
OK, well I still own both so it's not in my head, and yes it's hard for me to measure the usage time on both but I became a bit concerned when the spring scratching issues started on the Advantage even though I've seen no such problems on the Essential. I haven't been able to chase up any stories about differences in Cherry manufacturing easier. Suffice to say I prefer the feel of the Essential, for being softer.
When I check a few things and have the confidence to replace switches I might enquire about getting a couple replacements perhaps...

[natas206]

Thanks for all the replies The essential is old but not that old, dark blue home keycaps.
OK, well I still own both so it's not in my head, and yes it's hard for me to measure the usage time on both but I became a bit concerned when the spring scratching issues started on the Advantage even though I've seen no such problems on the Essential. I haven't been able to chase up any stories about differences in Cherry manufacturing easier. Suffice to say I prefer the feel of the Essential, for being softer.
When I check a few things and have the confidence to replace switches I might enquire about getting a couple replacements perhaps...

How old is the Advantage keyboard?

Also, do the thumb keys feel any different from the Keywells (left & right sides with alpha/numeric keys)? One possible solution is that you can purchase replacement keywells which are pretty easy to swap out on your own (or they may be free of cost if the keyboard is still under warranty). The thumb keys are a bit trickier to replace though, as the thumb pads are soldered onto the main circuit board, so you would either need to de-solder current switches, remove them and solder in the replacements. Or you can try this method that requires no soldering -

[islisis]

I bought it 2009, the serial is 5006xxx.
I would not say the thumb keys feel different, spacebar is key with the worst problem but that is probably due to frequency.
Thanks for the info and suggestions, I would rather not let the keywells go to waste, when I get the chance I'll definitely inquire!

[spherific]

I bought this keyboard to future proof myself from RSI since I'm pretty young. I'm a software developer so I spend quite a lot of time at the computer. I've had really mild RSI in the past, but nothing that bothered me.  The remapping feature is amazing. I wish it was on all keyboards.

I ordered it and it came a few days later. When I got it practiced on typeracer. After about an hour I felt some weird shoulder pain when I moved around. My fingers were straining to hit the right keys. I tried to use for a few more days and got weird pains all over my arm.

I love the key layout and how my arms rested on the keyboard, but I simply cannot continue to use it anymore.

[davkol]

I've had a similar issue recently, but from using a mouse/trackball for gaming. In the end, I found out I had the pointing device in incorrect height (only less than 5 cm lower than optimal height).

[TotalChaos]

I love the key layout and how my arms rested on the keyboard,

What part of your arms were resting on the keyboard?

Were your arms resting on the keyboard while you typed?

[spherific]

I love the key layout and how my arms rested on the keyboard,

What part of your arms were resting on the keyboard?

Were your arms resting on the keyboard while you typed?

By arms I meant my hands in the canonical position. Not sure how it's even possible to rest your arms on the keyboard.

[sordna]

Basically, you need to avoid anchoring your hands on this keyboard while typing. It take a bit of discipline because the keyboard is very comfy. But you're supposed to rest on the palmrest in the short pauses between typing... but while actually typing make sure lift your palms off the keyboard, so your hands are hovering over it as you type.
Also, as mentioned above, shoulder pain usually has to do with the device being in the wrong height... ideally your shoulders should be relaxed, upper arms straight down, forearms in horizontal position, and wrists straight.

[cassowary]

Sordna provides some advice on typing: ideally your shoulders should be relaxed, upper arms straight down, forearms in horizontal position, and wrists straight.

I've heard this sort of advice before. But it sounds like that should mean putting your keyboard on your lap; otherwise, the desk would have to be pushing against your legs. Is this actually true?

Thanks.

(Hello all. First time poster, short time lurker.)

[sordna]

Welcome to GH !
Actually, it's doable with a good chair and adjustable keyboard tray. With the keyboard on the desk it's almost impossible. If the keyboard is on the desk, you can have the shoulders relaxed by resting your arms on the desk, but that may cause problems to the hands and wrists.
I think keyboard on the lap is ergonomically better than keyboard on the desk, as long as you have a way to keep the keyboard in the right angle so your wrists aren't bending upwards.

[davkol]

...or standing setup.

[uzoc]

... when the only competitor costs more (maltron) and the next one costs less but offers less as well (TE), well that's really about it, you're paying for structure basically. Surprisingly, you can just buy 2 replacement concave (or just get red placements) for 70 bucks...

Trying to figure out, who is TE?
You can buy two replacement concaves from Kinesis?
Is there a possibility of using these concaves for a new keyboard?

[Input Nirvana]

You can use the keywells (concaves) for a new keyboard....it's more about the controller, less about the keys. I've got 2 sets of Kinesis cherry red keywells, I've thought about doing something fun with them.

[Lanx]

... when the only competitor costs more (maltron) and the next one costs less but offers less as well (TE), well that's really about it, you're paying for structure basically. Surprisingly, you can just buy 2 replacement concave (or just get red placements) for 70 bucks...

Trying to figure out, who is TE?
You can buy two replacement concaves from Kinesis?
Is there a possibility of using these concaves for a new keyboard?

te is truely ergonomic, they have a sorta ergonomic keyboard, well not it is more ergonomic than your standard microsoft ergonomic keyboard and i'm really just getting passed their crazy claims, but from users here the keyboard performs well.

if you have a kinesis, yes call them up with your serial number and they'll do some magic to sell you a LF(light force?) cherry red version for 70bucks?

no, kineis keywells are only for kinesis, it's phsyiclly and programmably impossible,
edit phone typing bad...

[uzoc]

... when the only competitor costs more (maltron) and the next one costs less but offers less as well (TE), well that's really about it, you're paying for structure basically. Surprisingly, you can just buy 2 replacement concave (or just get red placements) for 70 bucks...

Trying to figure out, who is TE?
You can buy two replacement concaves from Kinesis?
Is there a possibility of using these concaves for a new keyboard?

te is truely ergonomic, they have a sorta ergonomic keyboard, well not it is more ergonomic than your standard microsoft ergonomic keyboard and i'm really just getting passed their crazy claims, but from users here the keyboard performs well.

if you have a kinesis, yes call them up with your serial number and they'll do some magic to sell you a LF(light force?) cherry red version for 70bucks?

no, kineis keywells are only for kinesis, it's phsyiclly and programmably impossible,
edit phone typing bad...

Thanks, he said the keywells for $70 ($35 each I guess).
The TE doesn't convince me to even try it.
I'll try a TypeMatrix 2030 (got the old model, but like the improvements made on the new).
 

[islisis]

just to follow up on the scratchy key issue, natas was kind enough to send out a bunch of replacement browns and a couple reds for free. they arrived and based on this method

but using tweezers in each hand keeping the switch propped open with a resting knife, i was able to open the thumb switches relatively pain free and without opening the case (have to be careful at the edges of the keywell).

inspecting the old switches i could not see any physical damage to them, so it's my guess that the spring had become slightly deformed (reassembling and placing the old switch to my ear it definitely sounded like the spring scratching). i took the opportunity to also lube the switches and springs with teflon dry lube but like sordna commented i can't see a marked difference.

somehow one of the switches i changed now has a creaky spring so i should have tested the new one before putting it in, but i'll see how it holds over time for now. i understand how for many applications they are serviceable, but my love for cherry switches is now officially over

finally, i replaced an often-used layer modifier key with a red to try and reduce its force, and for that purpose it works fine. i wanted to also replace a dual-role modifier key, but for non-chorded presses i find the red just too floaty. also, the red seems to return with greater force since there is no tactile mechanism to slow it down. the sharp impact which results is loud and can be felt in the key itself, i wonder if there isn't a way to dampen it.

just from the above experience i wouldn't want to replace any more browns with reds - except for pinky modifiers, if that were possible :/ time to take a heated knife to my other kinesis essential..? i think what i will do now is cut the brown springs and figure out a way to file down the tactile stems for each of the thumb modifiers to try and bridge the gap. if that works i'll probably replace the red too

[ElectronicFur]

Welcome to GH !
Actually, it's doable with a good chair and adjustable keyboard tray. With the keyboard on the desk it's almost impossible. If the keyboard is on the desk, you can have the shoulders relaxed by resting your arms on the desk, but that may cause problems to the hands and wrists.
I think keyboard on the lap is ergonomically better than keyboard on the desk, as long as you have a way to keep the keyboard in the right angle so your wrists aren't bending upwards.

I think it depends on the desk and chair height. In my case raising my chair higher meant I can have the keyboard on the desk and relaxed shoulders, with hands resting on keyboard when not typing. This works better for me than a keyboard tray. It did mean I needed to buy a foot stool due to the higher chair position.