questions about topre realforce 86/87

[karlito]

So i searched this site and i found it lacking a good description of topre key switches. Could someone answer me the following questions:

• is it louder or quieter than a filco w/ browns?
• are the keys linear or do they "collapse" like a membrane
• when you bottom out the key is it hard plastic on plastic like a cherry switch or is it nice and soft like a membrane?

that's all the q's for now, thanks.

[eugenius]

afaik:

1. it's louder (the keycap makes a nice "tock" when it returns) - there are modders that damp the return too, with rubber ... in that case I would say it's quieter
2. not linear - it has tactile feedback but it's not instant like a mechanical switch, more like membrane
3. when you bottom out the keys it's soft, damped

PS: didn't try one yet ... extensive documentation disorder

[lam47]

the tactility is at the very top of the switch so it is more instant than a mechanical switch where the tactile bump is a mm or two down the travel.
Otherwise thats all correct.
Its only slightly louder than a brown too

[bhtooefr]

I think you're using differing definitions of instant.

Instant as in time it takes to begin and end the tactile "event," versus instant as in time in the key travel that the tactile event occurs.

Something like a Model M or a Cherry blue board has a short tactile event, whereas a rubber dome (or Topre's) tactile event is spread over a longer time.

[lam47]

Im not sure the definition for tactile would be the same then?
Would you say the topre has tactility all the way down or just at the top?
I would say its only at the top and lasts a lot less than a cherry, I class it as the stiffer part of the travel or the noticeable bump on a brown or blue.
These terms need to be defined.
CHLOEEEEEEE!!

[bhtooefr]

Tactility is a noticeable change (reduction, almost always - I say almost, because the Cherry blue runs up against a wall, but then again, the tactile event does result in a net reduction in force) in the amount of force used to depress the key. Of course, if we want to get pedantic about it, tactile feedback means that the tactility and the key actuation are connected - in which case the Alps switches don't have tactile feedback (but they are tactile.)

[lam47]

Im not being pedantic just trying to understand the semantics.
Especially when trying to explain it to someone who may not have as much experience.

May I ask if you have a topre board?

[bhtooefr]

I don't, unfortunately. (Everything I've got is in my sig. Well, OK, I am missing a spring over rubber dome board, and the //c's keyboard.)

[xsphat]

If you don't have a Torpe keyboard, bhtooefr, then why did you feel the need to try and answer this question? People with Topre keyboards (between me and Lam I think we've had 5) should answer Topre questions because we are the ones who might actually know the answers. Give it some thought.

[lam47]

OK...
I do
Just like to add I got my brown cherry board out and it is louder than a Happy hacking pro 2 for sure.
The cherry has pcb mounted switches and dual injection caps.
I dont have a filco but as its plate mounted the sound would be a little different and I would guess a bit louder too.

Are you after quiet or noise or just wanted to know

[itlnstln]

To me, tactility is the building up of resistance, then the subsequent total release of said resistance.  In that case, tactility starts on the keypress and ends when the resistance is released.

Edit:  I don't know if that had anything to do with anything, but I thought I would share.  I'm not awake right now.

[lam47]

I think I agree itlnstln.
So if you take a black cherry the presure required to depress the switch is pretty much unchanged.
With a brown there is an increase as the bump starts to push the metal leaf and then a decrease as it moves past it. I class this as the tactile 'event'
Meaning a Topre is not exactly tactile in the same way as the initial pressure to move the key down is greater than the following movement.
If a switch starts at 0mm depress and ends at say 4 a brown will have the tactility at around 1 or 1.5 and a Topre at 0.

Its kind of complicated when you try and explain it but your fingers will understand Karlito.

Does any of this answer your questions?

[lal]

Well, for me tactility means that you can *feel* in your finger tip exactly when the switch actuates.  Simple as that.  Most (all?) do it by a more or less sudden decrease in force applied against the finger tip, but it could as well vibrate or induce electrical shocks.  Mmh, that would be cool.  No?

[itlnstln]

Well, for me tactility means that you can *feel* in your finger tip exactly when the switch actuates.  Simple as that.  Most (all?) do it by a more or less sudden decrease in force applied against the finger tip, but it could as well vibrate or induce electrical shocks.  Mmh, that would be cool.  No?

I am not trying to be argumentative or anything, but I think by your definition, rubber domes would not be tactile since the "bump" in the switch occurs before the activation.  I think, ideally, we would like tactility to occur at activation, but I think the two are completely separate events.

[lal]

I am not trying to be argumentative or anything,

Why not?  This is a discussion forum after all

but I think by your definition, rubber domes would not be tactile since the "bump" in the switch occurs before the activation.

I'm not sure.  Can you press a rubber dome just slightly through it's "tactile"   point *without* it closing the circuit?  I could imagine the dome collapses immediately and activates the "switch".  In that case I'd call it "somewhat" tactile.

I think, ideally, we would like tactility to occur at activation, but I think the two are completely separate events.

What's the tactile sensation worth if it doesn't carry any information?  I don't separate the tactile feel from the actuation point if you can't have one without the other.  The sole purpose of the tactile feedback is to tell you that the switch has activated so you can stop applying pressure.  Sure, if you press an Alps switch super super slowly you can initiate the tactility without switching.  But during normal use the switch closes at the same time (for a fitting definition of "at the same time").

[lam47]

I wonder if Karlito is still with us.

[lal]

I don't know about Karlito but I want to add that technically tactility and activation are *of course* two separate events, itlnstln.  What I wanted to say is that for me it doesn't matter in practice, as long as the tactile feedback gives me sufficient certainty of something appearing on my screen.

[itlnstln]

Why not?  This is a discussion forum after all



I'm not sure.  Can you press a rubber dome just slightly through it's "tactile"   point *without* it closing the circuit?  I could imagine the dome collapses immediately and activates the "switch".  In that case I'd call it "somewhat" tactile.



What's the tactile sensation worth if it doesn't carry any information?  I don't separate the tactile feel from the actuation point if you can't have one without the other.  The sole purpose of the tactile feedback is to tell you that the switch has activated so you can stop applying pressure.  Sure, if you press an Alps switch super super slowly you can initiate the tactility without switching.  But during normal use the switch closes at the same time (for a fitting definition of "at the same time").

Yes, you can press a rubber dome through its tactile point without activating the switch.  That's one of the reasons why rubber domes suck and causes a lot of mistyping.  I agree with you that the tactile sensation is not worth anything if it does not convey any information about your action.  To me, tactility is like drapes/curtains.  Ideally, drapes/cutains should block sunlight from entering a room; however, some drapes are so sheer, pretty much all the sunlight enters the room anyway, so what was the point of the drapes/curtains?  Aesthetics.  People like key feel whether it means anything or not.  To us, we correlate tactility to some sort of action.  To others, they just like the bump they feel when pressing the key.

[itlnstln]

I think we might not be aligning on existence of tactility vs. the value of tactility.

[lal]

Yes, you can press a rubber dome through its tactile point without activating the switch.  That's one of the reasons why rubber domes suck and causes a lot of mistyping.

Then rubber domes are definitely *not* tactile.  Thank god.  You see, I haven't used one in a while

I agree with you that the tactile sensation is not worth anything if it does not convey any information about your action.  To me, tactility is like drapes/curtains.  Ideally, drapes/cutains should block sunlight from entering a room; however, some drapes are so sheer, pretty much all the sunlight enters the room anyway, so what was the point of the drapes/curtains?  Aesthetics.  People like key feel whether it means anything or not.  To us, we correlate tactility to some sort of action.  To others, they just like the bump they feel when pressing the key.

Agreed.  I just hope the others have their curtains closed when they're having fun bumping keys alone in a dark room.

[karlito]

im still here o_O

i just want a key switch with 35 grams of force or so for ~1mm of travel and then reduce to 10 or less and it to bottom out on a nice soft pillow of happiness.  complete silence is also welcome

hell I would still be using my logitech g15 over my filco tenkeyless w/ browns if it wasnt for the monstrous size of the g15.

the only reason i ever want any resistance in a key is to prevent accidental strokes... which is why it would be awesome if there was a switch w/ 35-10 or less "tactical" switch over point or something.

anyways ill just keep stacking books on my filco at night in hopes of more compressed springs in the morning.

[lam47]

I dont think there is a mechanical switch so soft.
You might have to stick with rubber dome boards I'm afraid.

Also sorry but keeping the springs in the switches depressed will not wear them in.
Its the constant movement of the springs that will eventually soften them.
But it could take a year or more to make a noticeable difference.

Sorry mate.

[itlnstln]

There is Chloe's cut spring mod.  You can take out the springs and cut them shorter to reduce the resistance.  I am not sure if you can do it on a Filco, though since the switches are plate-mounted.

[bhtooefr]

You'd be doing a lot of soldering.

Anyway, maybe a Dharma Tactical would be right? That's a 30g Topre-based board, IIRC...

[karlito]

You'd be doing a lot of soldering.

Anyway, maybe a Dharma Tactical would be right? That's a 30g Topre-based board, IIRC...

given my disappointment w/ the filco fkbn 87m/eb I find it hard to spend over $100 on a board I haven't even tried. but i will admit a realforce 86/87 w/ all 35g keys (vs that 55g one) would be damn tempting.