Are Filcos really that much better?

[fuzzybaffy]

So, I've been in the market for a full-size, Cherry MX Brown board, with Korean keys. And, like a fool, I did a completely blind and impulse purchase of this item on eBay (the white version): http://www.ebay.com/itm/331079260219?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649

I figured, this keyboard having Korean PBT keycaps, there is no reason this couldn't be a great deal. But, I, of course, eventually found an ad for this exact same keyboard for much cheaper (Gmarket.co.kr is a kind of eBay site for Korea): http://gsearch.gmarket.co.kr/Listview/Search?keyword=%ED%95%9C%EC%84%B1%20GO1108&type=LIST&pagesize=60&ordertype=SELL_PRICE_ASC&IsOversea=&IsDeliveryFee=&IsGmarketBest=&IsGmileage=False&IsDiscount=False&IsGstamp=False&IsBookCash=False&DelFee=&page=1&IsFeature=

With international shipping, I could have gotten this keyboard for around $140, instead of the $177 I paid on eBay. That means I overpaid by about 30-40 bucks for this keyboard.

If I purchase a Filco, it would cost $150 from Amazon, but I would also buy a set of ABS Korean keycaps from WASDkeyboards at $50, so the total would be $200. But the catch is, if I return the Hansung to get the Filco, the seller said they would only refund $138 out of the $177, as $39 of the price went to shipping, which apparently they are not responsible for (since there was nothing wrong with the product and/or their service). That, on top of the $20 or so dollars I need to spend to send the Hansung back to Korea, would mean the Filco set would, in practice, actually cost me something around $260.

To re-cap:
1. Hansung keyboard with Cherry MX Brown switches, Korean PBT keycaps = $177 (overpaid by about $30-40)
2. Filco keyboard + ABS Korean set from WASDkeyboards + the cost of sending Hansung keyboard back = $150 + $50 + $60 = $260 (overpaying by about $60)

One thing to note is, that I've already overpaid $30-40 for the Hansung keyboard (which is why I mentioned the gmarket.co.kr ad earlier). So I figured if I've already overpaid for the Hansung keyboard, I might as well just return the Hansung and overpay just a little more for the Filco.

But then again... going the way of the Filco setup is nearly $100 more expensive.

So the question is... are Filcos really that much better than other Cherry MX boards? I've seen this Filco vs. CM Storm comparison: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cy1JgF4_UT0, and I definitely do see a huge difference in quality of the Filco PCBs, controllers, and soldering. But, in practice, does it make that much of a difference?

I should also mention that I've owned a Filco in the past, for literally a week or two. And to behonest, I wasn't that impressed with the board (which was why I sold it). I definitely was not as impressed with it as I was when I received my Topre board - I'm not looking to start a Filco vs. Topre war, but I'm just mentioning the Topre to demonstrate that I'm not completely inexperienced/ignorant about mechanical keyboards.

And finally, how the Filco would compare is impossible to tell without actually knowing what the Hansung keyboard is like. Unfortunately, I have no clue. From the pictures of the eBay ad, and this video here of the Hansung board: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXpoy-YtDsQ, it really doesn't look like a bad board:

It really doesn't look that bad. It looks like the run-of-the-mill Leopold/Rosewill/CM Storm keyboard. That, plus the fact that it has PBT keys, might make it not a bad deal. But of course, the PBT keycaps could be complete crap for all I know; I understand just because they are PBT, doesn't mean they are all that great.

This post ended up being MUCH longer than I had anticipated. So, again, the main question is, just how much better are Filcos than the rest? Would it really be worth it to pony up the extra $90-100 to switch over to the Filco, or should I just take the gamble and keep the Hansung?

[Puddsy]

Nobody said Filco was best.

[fuzzybaffy]

Well... a lot of people (but not everybody) who've responded to this thread seem to prefer Filco (over Ducky, at least): http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=52349.0

[demik]

the one ducky board i had was terrible. flex all over the case and just felt really cheap.

granted, it was a 50 dollar green alps board but still. filco feels a million times better. but also comes with a bigger price tag.

[SpAmRaY]

the one ducky board i had was terrible. flex all over the case and just felt really cheap.

granted, it was a 50 dollar green alps board but still. filco feels a million times better. but also comes with a bigger price tag.

[demik]

lost me there ray

[SpAmRaY]

lost me there ray

Perhaps I should have just said apples n oranges

[rowdy]

No idea about Hansung, but most people faced with a decision like this are usually recommended to get CM QFR and some PBT keycaps.

Filco is good, and if you've got the money to burn, and don't mind non-detachable cable, and might replace the keycaps anyway, and don't want backlighting, then go for it.

If you want detachable cable, are definitely going to replace the keycaps, and/or want backlighting, go with QFR (TKL) or Ducky Shine.

[terran5992]

Theres not going to be notable difference between a QFR and a filco. But it lasts longer. Very rarely do people complain about their filcos

[HPE1000]

Theres not going to be notable difference between a QFR and a filco. But it lasts longer. Very rarely do people complain about their filcos

I disagree, it really depends on how much of a difference you are expecting though... I have owned 2 QFRs and this filco, the filco feels much nicer, the top piece is a lot more sturdy and the non rubber coating makes it feel a lot higher quality.

If it was my only board I would happily pay the extra for a filco, but if it was one of many keyboards and it wasn't going to get used all too much then the QFR all the way.

[SpAmRaY]

Theres not going to be notable difference between a QFR and a filco. But it lasts longer. Very rarely do people complain about their filcos

There used to be major ping issues with some filco boards.

[Puddsy]

Theres not going to be notable difference between a QFR and a filco. But it lasts longer. Very rarely do people complain about their filcos

There used to be major ping issues with some filco boards.

Still are

[tbc]

Theres not going to be notable difference between a QFR and a filco. But it lasts longer. Very rarely do people complain about their filcos

I disagree, it really depends on how much of a difference you are expecting though... I have owned 2 QFRs and this filco, the filco feels much nicer, the top piece is a lot more sturdy and the non rubber coating makes it feel a lot higher quality.

If it was my only board I would happily pay the extra for a filco, but if it was one of many keyboards and it wasn't going to get used all too much then the QFR all the way.

That's a matter of taste.  If people like the rubbery feeling; that's the way to go.  I love the rubbery textures, it's alot softer than plain plastic

[HPE1000]

Theres not going to be notable difference between a QFR and a filco. But it lasts longer. Very rarely do people complain about their filcos

I disagree, it really depends on how much of a difference you are expecting though... I have owned 2 QFRs and this filco, the filco feels much nicer, the top piece is a lot more sturdy and the non rubber coating makes it feel a lot higher quality.

If it was my only board I would happily pay the extra for a filco, but if it was one of many keyboards and it wasn't going to get used all too much then the QFR all the way.

That's a matter of taste.  If people like the rubbery feeling; that's the way to go.  I love the rubbery textures, it's alot softer than plain plastic

The rubber coating might actually be nice if it was strong and thicker, but it isn't. It took CM 3 tries to get me a replacement top in the mail that didn't end up having a messed up rubber coating. I have also seen people with them where the side of it has a ton of damage to the rubber coating from bumping it with their mouse. Also, my matte black top turned nearly grey in the 3 or so months I had it.

I am just trying to say that the filcos top is stronger and will last longer imo

[keymaster]

Theres not going to be notable difference between a QFR and a filco. But it lasts longer. Very rarely do people complain about their filcos

I disagree, it really depends on how much of a difference you are expecting though... I have owned 2 QFRs and this filco, the filco feels much nicer, the top piece is a lot more sturdy and the non rubber coating makes it feel a lot higher quality.

If it was my only board I would happily pay the extra for a filco, but if it was one of many keyboards and it wasn't going to get used all too much then the QFR all the way.

That's a matter of taste.  If people like the rubbery feeling; that's the way to go.  I love the rubbery textures, it's alot softer than plain plastic

The rubber coating might actually be nice if it was strong and thicker, but it isn't. It took CM 3 tries to get me a replacement top in the mail that didn't end up having a messed up rubber coating. I have also seen people with them where the side of it has a ton of damage to the rubber coating from bumping it with their mouse. Also, my matte black top turned nearly grey in the 3 or so months I had it.

I am just trying to say that the filcos top is stronger and will last longer imo

Although I think Filcos are overpriced by about $40-50, what you say about the QFR is 100% true. The rubber coating is really cheap and wears off at the corners (primarily). The QFR case would last a lot longer if it had a non-rubberized coating.

[rowdy]

Theres not going to be notable difference between a QFR and a filco. But it lasts longer. Very rarely do people complain about their filcos

I disagree, it really depends on how much of a difference you are expecting though... I have owned 2 QFRs and this filco, the filco feels much nicer, the top piece is a lot more sturdy and the non rubber coating makes it feel a lot higher quality.

If it was my only board I would happily pay the extra for a filco, but if it was one of many keyboards and it wasn't going to get used all too much then the QFR all the way.

That's a matter of taste.  If people like the rubbery feeling; that's the way to go.  I love the rubbery textures, it's alot softer than plain plastic

The rubber coating might actually be nice if it was strong and thicker, but it isn't. It took CM 3 tries to get me a replacement top in the mail that didn't end up having a messed up rubber coating. I have also seen people with them where the side of it has a ton of damage to the rubber coating from bumping it with their mouse. Also, my matte black top turned nearly grey in the 3 or so months I had it.

I am just trying to say that the filcos top is stronger and will last longer imo

Although I think Filcos are overpriced by about $40-50, what you say about the QFR is 100% true. The rubber coating is really cheap and wears off at the corners (primarily). The QFR case would last a lot longer if it had a non-rubberized coating.

I've had my first QFR for nearly a year, and it's had daily usage for about 6 months - none of the rubber coating is wearing off.

[pasph]

Theres not going to be notable difference between a QFR and a filco. But it lasts longer. Very rarely do people complain about their filcos

I disagree, it really depends on how much of a difference you are expecting though... I have owned 2 QFRs and this filco, the filco feels much nicer, the top piece is a lot more sturdy and the non rubber coating makes it feel a lot higher quality.

If it was my only board I would happily pay the extra for a filco, but if it was one of many keyboards and it wasn't going to get used all too much then the QFR all the way.

That's a matter of taste.  If people like the rubbery feeling; that's the way to go.  I love the rubbery textures, it's alot softer than plain plastic

The rubber coating might actually be nice if it was strong and thicker, but it isn't. It took CM 3 tries to get me a replacement top in the mail that didn't end up having a messed up rubber coating. I have also seen people with them where the side of it has a ton of damage to the rubber coating from bumping it with their mouse. Also, my matte black top turned nearly grey in the 3 or so months I had it.

I am just trying to say that the filcos top is stronger and will last longer imo

Although I think Filcos are overpriced by about $40-50, what you say about the QFR is 100% true. The rubber coating is really cheap and wears off at the corners (primarily). The QFR case would last a lot longer if it had a non-rubberized coating.

I can confirm this

[cinnamoncider]

I don't know if it's horrible or the best mkb. It may also depend on how strong the placebo effect got you

To be fair, you can also check out WASDkbs http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/index.php/products/mechanical-keyboard.html - if I may suggest 

[skuko]

having a QFR with blacksas well as a filco MJ2 TKL with blacks (typing at work on the QFR and having the filco at home), i have to say that the filco feels better to me. as a matter of fact, filcos feel the best out of all the boards i have/had, look in my sig.

i currently have 4 filcos (2 red, 1 blue and 1 black) all of which are superb. QFR comes close, but the stock caps are crap. filco stock caps are at least nice to the touch (even though this is more of a personal preference).

other than the blue one which had one non-clicking switch out of the box, which was replaced via RMA by keyboardco, all of the filcos are flawless, but QFR isn't far behind.

if you want media buttons and cheaper, go QFR. i like filcos, because they actually have the oldschool context menu button lol.

so yeah, all in all i think filcos are the best.

[Photoelectric]

Filcos are just about perfect for standard keyboards in plastic cases, in my opinion.  They have a really wonderful angle for typing, without feet raised, and if you add Cherry profile keycaps.  They are really well made (the standard black case ones are the sturdiest ones, and the black plastic case has a rough grainy texture that's durable).  Their PCBs are extremely thoroughly soldered--I've redone 2 of them to swap switches.  As far as I know, stock Filco caps are also of pretty good quality vs. QFR's.

With respect to Duckies--they are really great keyboards.  They apparently had some low quality products some years back, but at least for the past couple of years, their keyboards are top notch.  I can't say that they are worse than Filcos.  They are just different--slightly different profile and case design.  They offer some differing options from Filcos, namely removable USB cables, backlight (I'd recommend the Shine series vs. Zero Shine if you want top quality), some limited editions come with thick dye sub PBT caps. 

I don't think you can go wrong with a Filco or a Ducky.  Backlit keyboards have a higher chance for cosmetic failures (such as if an LED stops working due to some internal fault), but other than that, both are really great.  Another thing about Filcos is that they are very basic and work with just about everything, whereas a Ducky might have some more complex firmware--for example, my Ducky Shine in the living room doesn't work within a motherboard BIOS where other USB keyboards did--and a Filco works immediately.  I'm typing this now on a Ducky Shine II with Clears, and I've had 3 Filco TKLs and another Ducky Shine II with Browns.  I've also tested a CM QFR and painted something like 20 QFR covers.  The CM QFR top cover is different from Filco in the sense that it's also thinner all around and flimsier.  So they've had to cut corners in various ways to get the QFR price down (PCB/controller, cases, keycaps).  If you don't care about top notch quality under the hood and "good enough" would do, then a QFR should be plenty good.

[Wildcard]

My first modern mechanical was a Filco. I've learned a lot about keyboards since that point and I still hold the Filco's in high regards. The costar stabilizers, while being a PITA for changing key caps, feel great. I do appreciate the quality of this board and enjoyed typing on it.

[Stevenator21]

Where is a good place to buy them if I am located in the CONUS other than teh Keyboard company and Amazon?

[Photoelectric]

Where is a good place to buy them if I am located in the CONUS other than teh Keyboard company and Amazon?

The Classifieds   You can try us.ncix.com too.

[atlas3686]

Just my two cents, got two filco boards and they are great. Have absolutely no complaints. I would get some nice pbt caps though, although the stds are fine the board feels much nicer with pbt.

[Wildcard]

Where is a good place to buy them if I am located in the CONUS other than teh Keyboard company and Amazon?

Basically one and the same. The Keyboard Company has been selling through Amazon. Other then this, there aren't many US distributors.

[fuzzybaffy]

Filcos are just about perfect for standard keyboards in plastic cases, in my opinion.  They have a really wonderful angle for typing, without feet raised, and if you add Cherry profile keycaps.  They are really well made (the standard black case ones are the sturdiest ones, and the black plastic case has a rough grainy texture that's durable).  Their PCBs are extremely thoroughly soldered--I've redone 2 of them to swap switches.  As far as I know, stock Filco caps are also of pretty good quality vs. QFR's.

With respect to Duckies--they are really great keyboards.  They apparently had some low quality products some years back, but at least for the past couple of years, their keyboards are top notch.  I can't say that they are worse than Filcos.  They are just different--slightly different profile and case design.  They offer some differing options from Filcos, namely removable USB cables, backlight (I'd recommend the Shine series vs. Zero Shine if you want top quality), some limited editions come with thick dye sub PBT caps. 

I don't think you can go wrong with a Filco or a Ducky.  Backlit keyboards have a higher chance for cosmetic failures (such as if an LED stops working due to some internal fault), but other than that, both are really great.  Another thing about Filcos is that they are very basic and work with just about everything, whereas a Ducky might have some more complex firmware--for example, my Ducky Shine in the living room doesn't work within a motherboard BIOS where other USB keyboards did--and a Filco works immediately.  I'm typing this now on a Ducky Shine II with Clears, and I've had 3 Filco TKLs and another Ducky Shine II with Browns.  I've also tested a CM QFR and painted something like 20 QFR covers.  The CM QFR top cover is different from Filco in the sense that it's also thinner all around and flimsier.  So they've had to cut corners in various ways to get the QFR price down (PCB/controller, cases, keycaps).  If you don't care about top notch quality under the hood and "good enough" would do, then a QFR should be plenty good.

I see. So you note differences in the soldering (which I've seen myself, in the Filco vs. CM comparison video in the OP), case shells, controllers, etc., but are there any differences in the actual typing feel of Filcos? Do they somehow feel better as you type, aside whatever differences there may be in the stabilizers?

[PointyFox]

Theres not going to be notable difference between a QFR and a filco. But it lasts longer. Very rarely do people complain about their filcos

I've had 2 Filco controller boards develop problems.

[Findecanor]

A Filco Majestouch (TKL or fullsize) was the keyboard to get back when there wasn't that much competition, but a lot has happened in only the last few years.
Some owners complain about the keycaps: legends rubbing off and the ABS plastic getting shiny.
Some owners prefer the Costar stabilisers in the Filco over the Cherry stabilisers (in Ducky keyboards and others) only because the Cherry stabs dampen the stroke on bottoming out.

I have heard that Ducky's first mechanical keyboards had low quality, but the ones you find in the shops now have a pretty good reputation.

[FoxWolf1]

That Hansung bears a lot of similarities to a Keycool 108. Don't have enough information to determine if it's just a rebranding or if there are internal differences, but you can probably assume that you're getting something at least vaguely Keycool-ish.

[fuzzybaffy]

^ Now that you mention it, I think you're right: https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=408

That looks EXACTLY like the Hansung board. What's the word on Keycool's reputation?

By the way, I think I've decided to keep the Hansung. They come with Korean PBT keycaps, and whatever the quality they may end up being, my other option is the Filco with Korean ABS keycaps from WASD, and I don't want to deal with the ABS legends potentially wearing off and having to buy a new set of keycaps again. And purchasing a set of PBTs for the Filco right off the bat is too expensive for me.

I understand Filcos might be better, but I think I'll have to forego Filco's benefits in order to fit something within my budget. Thanks again for the advice everybody!

[spremino]

I've had 2 Filco controller boards develop problems.

How is it possible that IBM Model Ms have lasted decades whilst modern keyboards develop problems after what in comparison is light usage?  I mean, how difficult is it to manufacture a reliable keyboard controller?

[HPE1000]

I've had 2 Filco controller boards develop problems.

How is it possible that IBM Model Ms have lasted decades whilst modern keyboards develop problems after what in comparison is light usage?  I mean, how difficult is it to manufacture a reliable keyboard controller?

Everything was built better back then, it was expected to last forever. Now people just expect to replace something after a couple years.

Also, keyboards were expensive back then, I believe a model m cost around 200 and the model f was even more.

[rowdy]

^ Now that you mention it, I think you're right: https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=408

That looks EXACTLY like the Hansung board. What's the word on Keycool's reputation?

By the way, I think I've decided to keep the Hansung. They come with Korean PBT keycaps, and whatever the quality they may end up being, my other option is the Filco with Korean ABS keycaps from WASD, and I don't want to deal with the ABS legends potentially wearing off and having to buy a new set of keycaps again. And purchasing a set of PBTs for the Filco right off the bat is too expensive for me.

I understand Filcos might be better, but I think I'll have to forego Filco's benefits in order to fit something within my budget. Thanks again for the advice everybody!

I have a KeyCool 87 with MX reds (white edition, and it really is white).  The PBT keycaps were a nice bonus.  No problems at all with it, although it does feel lighter than, say, a QFR, which is the closest I can compare it with.  In terms of reliability, consistency and construction, they would be on par.  I guess QFR has a thicker plate, maybe, that makes it feel heavier and sturdier.

How is it possible that IBM Model Ms have lasted decades whilst modern keyboards develop problems after what in comparison is light usage?  I mean, how difficult is it to manufacture a reliable keyboard controller?

Maybe the simpler construction helped.  Less to go wrong.

[spremino]

How is it possible that IBM Model Ms have lasted decades whilst modern keyboards develop problems after what in comparison is light usage?  I mean, how difficult is it to manufacture a reliable keyboard controller?

Maybe the simpler construction helped.  Less to go wrong.

Actually, it seems that modern keyboards have a simpler construction than the Model M, since they consists of switches soldered on a PCB. Could it be that Maltron has it right for its keyboards with switches soldered by hand?

[tbc]

isn't this just a case of 'armor'?  the sheer physical bulk of the model m absorbs shock instead of the pcb and switches.  also, isn't the bs switch just simpler than any mx?  it's pretty much just a spring.

[fuzzybaffy]

Let's not forget the small sample sizes we're basing our impressions of old and modern keyboard reliability on. PointyFox mentions merely 2 broken Filco controllers, and people are making the conclusion that somehow all Filcos are less reliable than Model M's.

I'm not necessarily saying that Filcos are more long-lasting than Model M's. But I'm also saying, let's not jump to conclusions until we have bigger sample sizes. Also, we're forgetting all the Model M's in existence that may have indeed become broken; I doubt all the Model M's that were built in this world were perfect and had absolutely no problems.

[spremino]

isn't this just a case of 'armor'?  the sheer physical bulk of the model m absorbs shock instead of the pcb and switches.

But then, molding cases to support PCBs more doesn't seem a difficult task.

also, isn't the bs switch just simpler than any mx?  it's pretty much just a spring.

Let's not forget that Cherry switches (should) have a service life of 50 millions presses. Apparently, it's something else in the keyboards that fails.

Let's not forget the small sample sizes we're basing our impressions of old and modern keyboard reliability on. PointyFox mentions merely 2 broken Filco controllers, and people are making the conclusion that somehow all Filcos are less reliable than Model M's. I'm not necessarily saying that Filcos are more long-lasting than Model M's. But I'm also saying, let's not jump to conclusions until we have bigger sample sizes.

I would say that smaller sample sizes make modern keyboards look even worse. That is: it seems that a higher percentage of modern keyboards fail in the short run.

Also, we're forgetting all the Model M's in existence that may have indeed become broken; I doubt all the Model M's that were built in this world were perfect and had absolutely no problems.

Right. Model Ms that have reached us could be the luckier ones. What people call "survivorship bias". You made a point.

[sprk]

That Hansung bears a lot of similarities to a Keycool 108. Don't have enough information to determine if it's just a rebranding or if there are internal differences, but you can probably assume that you're getting something at least vaguely Keycool-ish.

I'd reckon that they probably are one and the same. I seem to remember reading something somewhere stating that same thing. I might - and probably am- just remember what I want to remember thought.

To the OP, lets be honest, is the keyboard you bought NOT what you expected? Regardless of price and brand, if it's a good keyboard why do you want to replace it with a Filco if you already spent the money and can't get back the shipping costs? Use the keyboard, you might actually realize you love it. If you don't sell it at a loss and get a hhkb or a poker

Hell if you still want a Filco 3 months later, there's a classifieds section for both your wish to sell this keyboard and to get a brand new Filco if you so desire.

[kyb]

The two Filcos I got had problems. The one had a defunct controller - the other one had a borked USB cable. Otherwise the boards were built like tanks. Nonfunctional tanks - but still tanks.

For that price that's rather substandard because if you spend a few currency units more you can get a Realforce or a HHKB. Which really are "that much better". And if you intend to buy PBT caps for your Filco there's no price difference anymore.

I'm not a Filco fan tbh.

[cinnamoncider]

The two Filcos I got had problems. The one had a defunct controller - the other one had a borked USB cable. Otherwise the boards were built like tanks. Nonfunctional tanks - but still tanks.

For that price that's rather substandard because if you spend a few currency units more you can get a Realforce or a HHKB. Which really are "that much better". And if you intend to buy PBT caps for your Filco there's no price difference anymore.

I'm not a Filco fan tbh.

Well, all things are deemed to fail anyway . The only question is when

[kyb]

Well, all things are deemed to fail anyway . The only question is when

Yup, but I expect 150 EUR keyboards to last a little longer than that

[terran5992]

Well, all things are deemed to fail anyway . The only question is when

Yup, but I expect 150 EUR keyboards to last a little longer than that

Im quite sure that filco will last the longest among the other keyboards

[fuzzybaffy]

kyb, do you have any non-Filco Cherry MX boards? If so, which ones, and how do they compare to Filco in terms of typing feel?