Nokia MikroMikko 1 keyboard

[Valis]

Hi,

I'm looking for info on the keyboard provided with Nokia MikroMikko 1, especially the switch type and monetary value. Anyone here able to help me?

[imcarzy15]

picture………

[Valis]

www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?st=1&c=630 has a pic. Uses the 15-pin connector. I'm looking to buy one for a collection if it's mechanical, and I'm not sure about the price.

[BlueBär]

There is barely any info about that computer and even less about the keyboard (apart from a few pictures none it seems). Your best bet is probably asking over at Deskthority or getting pictures of the switch.

[phetto]

Nokia keyboards is as durable as their phones

[Valis]

Yeah, I know that the site doesn't have any real info, and I can't don't seem to find it elsewhere either, so that's why I'm asking about it here, in case someone would have personal experience on it. As far as I know, all the MikroMikko 1 models were shipped with the same keyboard.

Here are a few more pics, including the sticker on the bottom of the keyboard (not the one I'm looking to buy, but looks the same): koti.mbnet.fi/~oju/retro/Mikko_eng.html

Unfortunately I don't have physical access to the keyboard, so I can't even test the key feel.

[BlueBär]

The whole system seems to be rare though, that's the issue. Without any better pictures we can't say anything (except somebody who has or knows that board). If you are looking to just buy it for reselling it to some mechanical keyboard collector, I would recommend just leaving it.

[Valis]

Well, it is a rare system, as (AFAIK) the whole computer was aimed mainly for Finland some 30 years ago. It's quite telling that this thread is now #2 in Google for "Mikromikko keyboard" 

I was buying it for myself, I'm just a bit worried about wasted money, as it takes at least a lot of cleaning up. Perhaps I'll pick it up anyway, not in a rush to decide (~2 weeks to decide).

[dorkvader]

Looks like it may have come with two different keyboards (I see pictures of a larger keyboard on a swedish page on it, see below) and is from 1982 or thereabouts.
(Though some pages say 1984)

You can sometimes tell what switches it's got from the keycaps (profile / shape / font). It might be the  nmb hitek / stackpole, I will check against mine when I get home.

Source #1 http://www.hogia.se/pcmuseum/datorer75-84/norden/finland/mikromikko.htm (late 1982)
Source #2 http://www.ferrit.fi/en/Kari.html
http://koti.mbnet.fi/~oju/retro/Mikko_fi.html (about 1984, but comments seem to indicate he doenst' know)
http://old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?st=1&c=630 (1984 but unsourced)
http://www.tietoviikko.fi/kaikki_uutiset/legendaarinen+mikromikko+tayttaa+30+vuotta/a692299 (1981 possibly? )
http://www.ferrit.fi/en/Kari.html (1980's)

[Valis]

Thanks for the help

The keyboard in the first one is definitely different, but I'm speculating that it could be MikroMikko 2, as the 5.25" floppy drives look a bit different, too. I haven't been able to find a good pic of MikroMikko 2, but the general looks should be the same. MikroMikko 3 was more a normal 286 computer with a horizontal desktop case and a 3.5" floppy drive; I dimly remember using those (or some models in the 3 series) sometime 1989-90, when I was 10-11 years old.

[dorkvader]

From what I am able to determine the MM3 used an AT-layout keyboard, similar to the model F AT.

I wasn't able to find out much on the MM2, but here's a picture of one
http://www.tietokonemuseo.net/yleinen/nokia-salora-spc2-mikromikko-2/

Not sure about that swedish MM I linked earlier. it's the only reference to that larger kb I was able to find.

Here's a good picture of the MM 1 keyboard

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Best thing would be to ask the owners of these photos/pages to pop a keycap and take a photo.

Didn't much later Nokia keyboards use ICL switches? (Not sure if any photos of those exist considering how many keyboard websites have died within the last year or two.)

Interesting keycaps though — those coloured tops are pretty unusual.

[Valis]

Best thing would be to ask the owners of these photos/pages to pop a keycap and take a photo.

Good idea, I'll do that.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the era and the looks of the keycaps would rather point to a mechanical keyboard. On the other hand, the profile seems to be quite low, which would more likely mean some sort of membrane.

[Valis]

Not really sure what the odd keyboard at hogia.se is, it's not MM 2, which I finally found here (scroll down): http://yli-koski.fi/poistot/ppelit.htm

MM 3 and onwards did have the normal AT keyboards, rubber domes with stems: http://imgur.com/a/BSHT0/layout/horizontal#0

Anyway, contacted one Finnish guy with the keyboard, so hopefully I'll get some answers back.

[BlueBär]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the era and the looks of the keycaps would rather point to a mechanical keyboard.

Wouldn't bet on it. 70s, probably, but 80s, nope. And imo caps don't tell much about the switch, for example the C64 has quite nice looking spherical caps but feels horrible.

[dorkvader]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the era and the looks of the keycaps would rather point to a mechanical keyboard.

Wouldn't bet on it. 70s, probably, but 80s, nope. And imo caps don't tell much about the switch, for example the C64 has quite nice looking spherical caps but feels horrible.

From what I have been able to determine, rubberdomes weren't popular until 1984-1986 or later, and some sources indicate the MikroMikko 1 came out in 1981 or 1982, so there's a good chance it's mechanical of some sort.

Still, we shall see.

I contacted ferrit.fi about it and linked this topic as well. Hopefully he will respond. I figured he'd be a good bet since he already has a writeup of his first computer, as well as some of the best information about it.

Today, my wild guess is fujitsu leaf springs. This guess is not based on anything, and is likely wrong as I'm not aware of any nokia / fujitsu work across the globe, but I can still hope.

[BlueBär]

From what I have been able to determine, rubberdomes weren't popular until 1984-1986 or later, and some sources indicate the MikroMikko 1 came out in 1981 or 1982, so there's a good chance it's mechanical of some sort.

ZX Spectrum... I don't know if you would classify that as a RD, but you get what I mean.

Today, my wild guess is fujitsu leaf springs. This guess is not based on anything, and is likely wrong as I'm not aware of any nokia / fujitsu work across the globe, but I can still hope.

Fujitsu Leaf Spring would be awesome, and the caps are kind of similar to the 1st gen ones (which uses also the same profile for all rows).

[Findecanor]

The styling of the MikroMikko keyboard reminds me a lot of the early Ericsson Data keyboards. Also a lip around the keys and a large wrist rest.
Ericsson Data and Nokia Data merged in the '80s before it merged with ICL. Later keyboards from Ericsson/Nokia/ICL had what are sometimes called "ICL switches", pcb-mounted mechanical with open mechanism under the key cap.

MM 3 and onwards did have the normal AT keyboards, rubber domes with stems: http://imgur.com/a/BSHT0/layout/horizontal#0

I recognized that as Key Tronic foam-and-foil. They were OEM for many brands.

[Valis]

MM 3 and onwards did have the normal AT keyboards, rubber domes with stems: http://imgur.com/a/BSHT0/layout/horizontal#0

I recognized that as Key Tronic foam-and-foil. They were OEM for many brands.

I agree, I didn't really pay attention to the separate rubber domes between the cap and the switch in another pic on the site. Looking at Deskthority for info on the switch, there are similar caps than on the MM 1 displayed there, so I'd guess the MM 1 keyboard could have the same foil and foam switches. Perhaps still worth buying the keyboard...

[dorkvader]

Fujitsu Leaf Spring would be awesome, and the caps are kind of similar to the 1st gen ones (which uses also the same profile for all rows).

My fujitsu leaf spring first gen uses different profiles for the rows (so remarkably so in fact that I took a picture with my phone when I was cleaning it), but yes, I was guessing based on the "squared-corner" spherical nature of the keycaps.
edit: here's a picture


It doesn't appear to be nmb / hitek, as those are much "smoother" sphericals.

About ICL: I was looking for those for a while, since the "identify that vintage switch" wiki article went down. I suppose it could be those, here's the only good ICL board photos I can find (findcanor: can you repost any info you may have on that tandberg terminal kb? )
http://deskthority.net/photos-videos-f8/ericsson-type-1121-t5167.html (too modern I would guess)
http://deskthority.net/marketplace-f11/nokia-data-keyboard-numpad-t1434.html (spherical but much flatter than this nokia)

For what it's worth, it doesn't look like keytronic / btc foam&foil to me, but it still could be.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Thanks for the ICL heads-up — added it to my infinitely long list of things to add to the wiki

[Makarios]

Hello geekhackers! After receiving a couple of queries from you guys about MM1 keybard via e-mail, I decided to join the forum to share what I know and learn some more.

I'm indeed a happy owner of a fully functional MM1 M6 and its keyboard, which I dissected this morning to provide you some images of its internals. Full resolution pics are available here: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/88192740/MM1_M6_keyboard.zip.

Unfortunately the keycaps are quite firmly attached, so after some effort I decided against detaching one as I don't want to break the keyboard. I hope you can figure out the kb type from the pics. Keys definitely have a very mechanical and hard feeling, not rubbery at all. There is also a distinctive clicking sound which can be heard from the audio clip on this page: http://www.ferrit.fi/en/Kari.html

Regarding the time of release of MM1, according to this page it was on 29. September 1981 (nameday of Mikko): http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/MikroMikko

[BlueBär]

Those are some great shots, they should be helpful, thank you!

[Valis]

Yep great shots, big thanks!

Hmm, looks like large, T-shaped stem. Should be easy enough to recognize, but I can't find a match.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Doesn't appear to resemble anything I've seen before.

[dorkvader]

Doesn't appear to resemble anything I've seen before.

There are some clues.

Hello geekhackers! After receiving a couple of queries from you guys about MM1 keybard via e-mail, I decided to join the forum to share what I know and learn some more.

I'm indeed a happy owner of a fully functional MM1 M6 and its keyboard, which I dissected this morning to provide you some images of its internals. Full resolution pics are available here: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/88192740/MM1_M6_keyboard.zip.

Unfortunately the keycaps are quite firmly attached, so after some effort I decided against detaching one as I don't want to break the keyboard. I hope you can figure out the kb type from the pics. Keys definitely have a very mechanical and hard feeling, not rubbery at all. There is also a distinctive clicking sound which can be heard from the audio clip on this page: http://www.ferrit.fi/en/Kari.html

Regarding the time of release of MM1, according to this page it was on 29. September 1981 (nameday of Mikko): http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/MikroMikko

Wow excellent pictures!

There are some clues from what I see: Firstly I notice there are 4 leads for each switch, this usually indicates some sort of "active" switch (hall effect or sometimes reed switch) The white stems and switch bodies, as well as the spacebar stabilizer construction look very much like Microswitch (Honeywell) hall effect. Also, the "offset" nature of the leads is the same.
Check out those PCB busses for power and ground on the switches! The outermost leads are power (+5V usually_ and ground, and the interior two are separate discrete outputs (for reliability, but they are used for other things sometimes.) I also notice the modifiers are "offset" stems, and teh 2 unit keys have two switches underneath) If you look closely, one has a switch body but is not soldered: there's most likely no hall effect sensor under there)

It's hard to get a good look at the switch body, but the rest appears to be in line with other microswitch hall effect keyboards I've seen. It's the "traditional plate" mount (that needs a new name) that I had previously been calling "modern".
Microswitch hall effect switches are rated for 30 billion keystrokes, so this keyboard, (if it is microswitch hall effect) should be quite reliable.

[Valis]

Thanks for the info. Looking at pics of Honeywell Hall effect switches at Deskthority, there seem to be quite identical white ones labeled "white slider variants".

I'll surely try to get this keyboard.

[dorkvader]

Thanks for the info. Looking at pics of Honeywell Hall effect switches at Deskthority, there seem to be quite identical white ones labeled "white slider variants".

I'll surely try to get this keyboard.

Please do!
If one does end up in your hands, I would like some pictures of the underside of the keycap, or a description of it. The construction of the keycaps interests me greatly.

[nappi11]

This thread got just in time. We dug out from the naphthalene one of the oldest computer in our school few days ago, and it happens to be the MikroMikko1 M4, two 5 1/4" drives and no HDD. The computer works fine, and the keyboard is just the same as in Makarios's pics. The keyfeel is smooth linear and very, very heavy.

The layout of the keyboard is very strange, even with the CP/M 2.2 operating system. I haven't took off any keycap because I'm afraid that the keyboards or switch breaks and I don't want to wreck such piece of history. But in the same time, I'm so goddamn curious about the switch identifying. What do you think, would it be safe to pull off the keycap with a home-made keycap puller?? At least they won't pop off with bare fingers like Cherry MX keycaps do .

Oh god I'm so excited now after reading this thread... I'll try to make some research on Monday, the next time I'll be at the school. I have some pictures about the main unit, but I guess they won't give any more information right now. Sorry for the bad spelling, I'm far too enthusiastic right now to write proper English.

[dorkvader]

This thread got just in time. We dug out from the naphthalene one of the oldest computer in our school few days ago, and it happens to be the MikroMikko1 M4, two 5 1/4" drives and no HDD. The computer works fine, and the keyboard is just the same as in Makarios's pics. The keyfeel is smooth linear and very, very heavy.

The layout of the keyboard is very strange, even with the CP/M 2.2 operating system. I haven't took off any keycap because I'm afraid that the keyboards or switch breaks and I don't want to wreck such piece of history. But in the same time, I'm so goddamn curious about the switch identifying. What do you think, would it be safe to pull off the keycap with a home-made keycap puller?? At least they won't pop off with bare fingers like Cherry MX keycaps do .

Oh god I'm so excited now after reading this thread... I'll try to make some research on Monday, the next time I'll be at the school. I have some pictures about the main unit, but I guess they won't give any more information right now. Sorry for the bad spelling, I'm far too enthusiastic right now to write proper English.

all the microswitch keyboards I've used, you can pull the keycaps off and not damage the switch: they are very robust. That said, I only have one keypad that uses these plate mounted ones.

The good part about these switches is that they should have the model number printed on the top: which you can use to get the main characteristics of the switch.

[Findecanor]

I have actually come across a keyboard with unusual switches where the keycap could NOT be put on again without difficulty.

[Valis]

It shouldn't be a problem to remove these keycaps. For similar switches, see for example: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=18048.0

[dorkvader]

It shouldn't be a problem to remove these keycaps. For similar switches, see for example: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=18048.0

Owning one of those, I can attest that it wasn't too hard to remove the keycaps

But, these keycaps do not appear to be manufactured by microswitch, and thus may be more difficult.

[nappi11]

And now here's the pictures, five days later than promised but anyway:

http://imgur.com/a/7u23V

--

Yes, the switches are made by Honeywell. They're heavy and butter smooth, and the keyboard lasts a nuclear war (and a 30-year usage in Finnish senior high school). Very solid and quality keyboard indeed, except the strange key caps. Luckily, they popped out much easier than I had excepted .

I'll make some edits to DT wiki due this discovery.

[Valis]

Very neat. What's the cap printing/manufacturing technique called? There's some kind of transparent layer on top.

[nappi11]

I was thinking quite the same. It looked like there was a paper sheet which had the letter printed on it under the transparent plastic layer. Very strange to me.

[dorkvader]

Very neat. What's the cap printing/manufacturing technique called? There's some kind of transparent layer on top.

Thanks for the great pictures! P/N: 1B3S just confirms some things we knew and also clarifies some particulars.
1 = white stem
B = angled
3 = "normal" weight (78 cN is the value in the wiki)
S = redundant output line.

Those closeups of the keycaps reveal a lot as well. Now, i can't say for sure, but this is what it looks like:
1. single blank keycap is cast
2. legend is engraved and infilled (or somehow printed on paper or something)?
3. top is covered with a clear (or translucent) hardcoating for wear resistance.

This is similar to how some keycaps are made nowadays (and a good tradeoff between cost and durability, especially if nokia didn't know how long there'd be production, had difficult finnish legends for which there exists no mound, and still wanted a good keycap), but looks like nokia's process for these is taken to the extreme. Also, with a KB switch rated for billions of actuations, it's fitting that the keycaps are engineered to a similar high tolerance.

I also note the switches are rotated 180 degrees from their usual orientation

Wow great find! I'm glad I could help a little with learning about it. Thanks very much for the excellent pictures.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

I find it odd that Micro Switch would make the slider colour an option. The idea that 1 means white slider seems backwards — surely it refers to some other characteristic that is indicated by the white slider? What exactly, I haven't a clue. But being able to choose white or black slider for normally unseen parts simply out of a Steve Jobs complex? Seems unlikely.

[nappi11]

I did some research with the keycaps. I managed to remove the plastic layer from the ctrl-key because it was a bit damaged from its corner.

The layer:
http://i.imgur.com/753TXgA.jpg

The layer from underside:
http://i.imgur.com/sgGBRM0.jpg

The damaged keycap without layer:
http://i.imgur.com/9oJchAX.jpg

As can be seen from the pictures, the printing is somewhat sticky material which have been... well.. painted, injected or sprayed to the plastic layer. The "paint" felt quite thick, and I guess (but I didn't try) that the painting could be scratched off from the layer quite easily. Practically it means that the printing won't be fading off before there's a hole in the plastic layer.. and that would and will took a long time and extremely heavy use. (Actually, if not using sandpaper gloves, it would took an eternity

So, after all it looks like that this case is solved now. Thanks to everybody for all the help and info provided! This was quite and experience, at least for me!  I'll be doing some updates to DT wiki due this project.

[Linkbane]

And now here's the pictures, five days later than promised but anyway:

http://imgur.com/a/7u23V

--

Yes, the switches are made by Honeywell. They're heavy and butter smooth, and the keyboard lasts a nuclear war (and a 30-year usage in Finnish senior high school). Very solid and quality keyboard indeed, except the strange key caps. Luckily, they popped out much easier than I had excepted .

I'll make some edits to DT wiki due this discovery.

Mother of getting lucky!