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Author Topic: IBM rivet fix?  (Read 5178 times)

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Offline lam47

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IBM rivet fix?
« on: Tue, 27 January 2009, 05:18:38 »
Hey.
I opened up my space saver today as there was something rattling around inside.
It was one of the melted plastic rivets.
A further 15 were stuck to the bottom of the case.
I know this is pretty common with the Model Ms and have been looking for the guide on fixing them with countersunk screws.

I couldn't find it though!
I'm stoopid yes.

Also curious as to what people think of doing this? Would it de value the board or act in its favour? (not that I would ever part with it)

Thanks all.

Laurie.
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Keyboards. Happy Hacking pro 2 x2. One white one black. IBM model M US layout. SGI silicone Graphics with rubber dampened ALPS. IBM model F. ALPS apple board, I forget what it is. And some more I forget what I have.

Typewriters. Olivetti Valentine. Imperial Good Companion Model T. Olympia SM3

Offline Chloe

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IBM rivet fix?
« Reply #1 on: Tue, 27 January 2009, 05:37:32 »
http://sandy55.fc2web.com/keyboard/repair_model_m.html

If the missing rivet doesn't affect performance then I would probably leave it until I needed to remove the plate but that's just me.
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Offline lam47

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IBM rivet fix?
« Reply #2 on: Tue, 27 January 2009, 06:32:10 »
Here are some pictures of the insides.
You can see where they are missing and also the gap this creates between the metal plate and the plastic one.

I think to make the board feel nice and sturdy I will need to do the mod.

Can anyone think of a way to re attach the broken rivets?




this highlights just how clever the Japanese designed IBM is! Nothing it that board can't be removed and replaced. Its even screwed together rather than using uncommon 5.5 bolts.
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Keyboards. Happy Hacking pro 2 x2. One white one black. IBM model M US layout. SGI silicone Graphics with rubber dampened ALPS. IBM model F. ALPS apple board, I forget what it is. And some more I forget what I have.

Typewriters. Olivetti Valentine. Imperial Good Companion Model T. Olympia SM3

Offline sandy55

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IBM rivet fix?
« Reply #3 on: Tue, 27 January 2009, 07:38:50 »
I agree with Chloe.
That crazy man did "bolts and nuts" because the board sometimes went mad and frenzy when got plugged to PC.

Another example is here.  This one did work but TOO MANY dust and sand     everywhere inside the board and even inside buckling cylinders.  

If every keys buckle and actuate properly, then leave it as is.

Go for "bolts and nuts" adventure only when the board won't respond properly.... or *uneasy feel of  having  rivets off  backplate* attack you repeatedly even in your dream and you can't resist to do so.

And never screw directly from backplate through to membrane and top plastic plate without de-assembling those parts.  Once plastic dusts slip into membrane,  board won't work properly and you have to bound for bolts and nuts adventure eventually.
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Offline lam47

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IBM rivet fix?
« Reply #4 on: Tue, 27 January 2009, 09:34:51 »
OK that makes sense.
I will try and think of another way to squeeze the plates together.
Its the bottom right corner that seems the worst.
There must be a way I could clip it without needing to drill anything.
Hmm must think.
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Keyboards. Happy Hacking pro 2 x2. One white one black. IBM model M US layout. SGI silicone Graphics with rubber dampened ALPS. IBM model F. ALPS apple board, I forget what it is. And some more I forget what I have.

Typewriters. Olivetti Valentine. Imperial Good Companion Model T. Olympia SM3

Offline itlnstln

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IBM rivet fix?
« Reply #5 on: Tue, 27 January 2009, 09:48:35 »
If you're looking for a permanent fix (i.e. you're not going to try to pull it apart again), you could try some JB Weld: http://jbweld.net/index.php.  I don't know if they sell this product in the UK, though.
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Offline lam47

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IBM rivet fix?
« Reply #6 on: Tue, 27 January 2009, 10:12:49 »
What I was hoping for ideally was a way to fix it without any permanent changes to the original parts.
This is what I have done for now in the corner worst effected.
The only reason I need to do it at all is that the up arrow does not buckle every time.
The plastic has moved away from the metal.

Its just a couple of hair grips but it has the up arrow working fine.

I would ideally like to find a way to melt the rivets back into place but I dont think that will work.
I might try and make a larger clip to sit on the side there.


Its working OK for now though :)
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Keyboards. Happy Hacking pro 2 x2. One white one black. IBM model M US layout. SGI silicone Graphics with rubber dampened ALPS. IBM model F. ALPS apple board, I forget what it is. And some more I forget what I have.

Typewriters. Olivetti Valentine. Imperial Good Companion Model T. Olympia SM3

Offline itlnstln

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IBM rivet fix?
« Reply #7 on: Tue, 27 January 2009, 10:15:17 »
Stupid Websense.  When users link to pics on Photobucket, I can't see them at work.  I'll have to wait until I go home to see what you rigged up.
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Offline lam47

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IBM rivet fix?
« Reply #8 on: Tue, 27 January 2009, 18:16:48 »
Oh dear. Its not a lot to look at to be honest but it is doing the job for now.
I might see if I can find a putty I could colour black.
Then make some little rivets that look just like the originals! Might work might not.
I don't suppose anyone can think of a way to re attach the broken parts?
That would be best :)
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Keyboards. Happy Hacking pro 2 x2. One white one black. IBM model M US layout. SGI silicone Graphics with rubber dampened ALPS. IBM model F. ALPS apple board, I forget what it is. And some more I forget what I have.

Typewriters. Olivetti Valentine. Imperial Good Companion Model T. Olympia SM3

Offline lam47

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IBM rivet fix?
« Reply #9 on: Tue, 27 January 2009, 19:08:15 »
Out of interest (Sandy) would you think the mod would de value the board?
Is it like sanding and re lacquering an antique table in some cheap clear coat?

Or more like a restoration of an old item to make it usable again.

I have a few bards I would like to mod just to make them a bit more solid but would not want anyone to think I was ruining them.

Interested in others opinions too.
Would you rather have a slightly rattly board with some looseness in places but 100% original, or a restored board that has a few extra screws in but is as solid as it gets.

Im obsessed I know :)
I love this board so much its hard to decide what to do.

Laurie.
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Keyboards. Happy Hacking pro 2 x2. One white one black. IBM model M US layout. SGI silicone Graphics with rubber dampened ALPS. IBM model F. ALPS apple board, I forget what it is. And some more I forget what I have.

Typewriters. Olivetti Valentine. Imperial Good Companion Model T. Olympia SM3

Offline bhtooefr

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IBM rivet fix?
« Reply #10 on: Tue, 27 January 2009, 19:57:38 »
In the case of an ordinary Model M, they're for use, not collection. Fix it.
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Offline lam47

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IBM rivet fix?
« Reply #11 on: Wed, 28 January 2009, 04:21:32 »
And an ISO space saver?
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Keyboards. Happy Hacking pro 2 x2. One white one black. IBM model M US layout. SGI silicone Graphics with rubber dampened ALPS. IBM model F. ALPS apple board, I forget what it is. And some more I forget what I have.

Typewriters. Olivetti Valentine. Imperial Good Companion Model T. Olympia SM3

Offline lal

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IBM rivet fix?
« Reply #12 on: Wed, 28 January 2009, 04:34:39 »
I would say, the Model M is famous for it's great feel while typing, not for it's look. And this is no antique hand-made unique furniture or something.  What value is left if it's typing badly? If you're a gifted craftsman, and I'm strongly convinced that you are lam, then by all means repair it and make it a proud example of great typing gear design again!
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BS: Customizer, Model Ms; Alps: CSK-2101, FK-2002, AT-101 (SGI & Dell), MCK-860, FKBN87Z/EB; Cherry: Poker X, FKBN87MC/EB, WY60, G80-3000, G84-4100, TDV 5010

Offline bhtooefr

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IBM rivet fix?
« Reply #13 on: Wed, 28 January 2009, 09:49:37 »
An ISO Spacesaver is probably rare, but is it collectible? Even if it is collectible, remember this. It was made to type on. This isn't an M15, so it's not sacrilege to modify it.
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Offline lam47

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IBM rivet fix?
« Reply #14 on: Wed, 28 January 2009, 09:56:11 »
Thanks everyone.
I have gone as far as ordering some high quality modelling screws.
I also have a way to do it without removing all the rivets that are left.
It will be perfectly safe and no dust will get into the membrane.

Then it should only need 3 screws to feel like new again.
I think I will most likely go for this.
My intention is to use this as my default board As I love the sound shape and everything.
Also once the blank Key caps arrive from iMav its going to look even cooler!

Thanks again for all the posts. + rep :)
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Keyboards. Happy Hacking pro 2 x2. One white one black. IBM model M US layout. SGI silicone Graphics with rubber dampened ALPS. IBM model F. ALPS apple board, I forget what it is. And some more I forget what I have.

Typewriters. Olivetti Valentine. Imperial Good Companion Model T. Olympia SM3

Offline sandy55

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IBM rivet fix?
« Reply #15 on: Wed, 28 January 2009, 11:34:16 »
Sorry, but I didn't realize that the board lost so many rivets.  all keys including up-arrow buckled fine when I tested it so I didn't think of that problem.
I wonder if any shocks during delivery happened to give weakened rivets a final blow. the boards is nearly 20 years old, you know.

Well, If you have an idea to fix the problem and you are confident how to do it without any dust slipping between membrane sheets then you'd better to try to fix it.  I hope you can find good, thin screws and appropriate washers. I roughly measure that appropriate length of screw should be about 7mm including thickness of a washer.  I don't think three screws are enough to pressing down (  in this case pulling up ) the top plate to the backplane.  I think rivets marked with red circles in attached jpg  must be re-screwed and three rivets within a blue circle are also recommended to get screwed to keep balance.  It will really be a tough operation.
Again. I'm really sorry

P.S. I have another US layout Unicomp mini which was NIB but more rivets already torn off and many keys don't respond.  this is the one and only huge weak point of "durable" model M
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Offline lam47

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IBM rivet fix?
« Reply #16 on: Wed, 28 January 2009, 11:39:18 »
No worries Sandy, my guess would be travelling all that way on the plane and then our postal services pretty poor record are what loosened the rivets.

I have no doubt it was perfect when it left.

It really does show how clever the Japanese M is though.
I can find no week points in the design at all! Even if I still prefer the feel of the western Buckling springs.


Oh and this kind of delicate mod is much more my thing than boiling keys ;)
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Keyboards. Happy Hacking pro 2 x2. One white one black. IBM model M US layout. SGI silicone Graphics with rubber dampened ALPS. IBM model F. ALPS apple board, I forget what it is. And some more I forget what I have.

Typewriters. Olivetti Valentine. Imperial Good Companion Model T. Olympia SM3

Offline lowpoly

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IBM rivet fix?
« Reply #17 on: Wed, 28 January 2009, 12:00:48 »
Regarding yes or no, the damage is already done. You're just restoring it.
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Offline lam47

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IBM rivet fix?
« Reply #18 on: Sat, 31 January 2009, 09:54:45 »
right that went well :)
Only needed 2 small screws to stop the plastic from rising off the metal plate.
Forgot to take any pictures but then they would be dull as hell anyway.

All keys feel crisp and like new :)

CLACK CLACK time.
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Keyboards. Happy Hacking pro 2 x2. One white one black. IBM model M US layout. SGI silicone Graphics with rubber dampened ALPS. IBM model F. ALPS apple board, I forget what it is. And some more I forget what I have.

Typewriters. Olivetti Valentine. Imperial Good Companion Model T. Olympia SM3

Offline lam47

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IBM rivet fix?
« Reply #19 on: Sat, 31 January 2009, 10:21:50 »
Mmm still typing, kind of posting here just for an excuse to use the keyboard.
Just thinking though. If at any point the screws came loose or the thread became damaged I could just drill all the way through and but little m3 bolts in instead (perhaps m2.3) But for now the board is lovely.
I just hope nobody thinks its sacrilege to drill little holes in the keyboard.
So long as he is looked after though I see no reason he will need opening again.
Maybe in another 15 - 20 years for a clean and I expect I will be long gone by then.

No I will still be here.
Just had to backspace 4 or 5 sentences because they made little to no sense.
I think I might well be at the peek of madness today.
I need a blog for this mindless drivel.

Sorry.
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Keyboards. Happy Hacking pro 2 x2. One white one black. IBM model M US layout. SGI silicone Graphics with rubber dampened ALPS. IBM model F. ALPS apple board, I forget what it is. And some more I forget what I have.

Typewriters. Olivetti Valentine. Imperial Good Companion Model T. Olympia SM3

Offline lal

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IBM rivet fix?
« Reply #20 on: Sat, 31 January 2009, 10:55:40 »
I'm glad you did the right thing :)
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BS: Customizer, Model Ms; Alps: CSK-2101, FK-2002, AT-101 (SGI & Dell), MCK-860, FKBN87Z/EB; Cherry: Poker X, FKBN87MC/EB, WY60, G80-3000, G84-4100, TDV 5010

Offline lam47

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IBM rivet fix?
« Reply #21 on: Sat, 31 January 2009, 12:01:34 »
Thanks man. It feels amazing now and is still pristine.
I don't like putting holes in things but then what's the option when the rivets have already come off.
This board is hard for me to stop writing on even more so than the Hacker!
I just love the feel of the BSs so much :)

Thanks again to Sandy who is the man for sending this board to me.
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Keyboards. Happy Hacking pro 2 x2. One white one black. IBM model M US layout. SGI silicone Graphics with rubber dampened ALPS. IBM model F. ALPS apple board, I forget what it is. And some more I forget what I have.

Typewriters. Olivetti Valentine. Imperial Good Companion Model T. Olympia SM3
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