Newbie questions

[arnoldus]

Hello fellows,

I've been browsing the forum a couple of days, but I still have 2 questions:

What are the cheap keyboards that have good tactile feedback? (Cheap, I mean around <75$) I noticed that those will probably have cherry brown/blue switches in that price range.

Where to get keyboards in Europe? It seems crazy to order from Asia or US when on a budget.

[bigpook]

There is the iOne Scorpius M10 with blue cherries. Don't know if you can get it in Europe though.

[iMav]

New Model M's from Unicomp are under $70.  (Customizer and Spacesaver flavors)

Dell AT101W's can be had NIB (new in box) for cheap from eBay.

MacAlly MK96's can be had NIB for cheap from eBay as well.

As mentioned by bigpook, the Scorpius M10 can be had cheaply as well.

That gives you white "alps", blue cherry, black "alps", and buckling spring options...all at affordable prices.

(and if you need something that can't be had easily in Europe, let us know.  lots of folks here would be happy to order for you and ship along to you)

[bigpook]

way to go iMav. the Dell may be the most cost effective for him though. It s the Europe thing that screws it up, maybe.

For the Dell, go to ebay and search for this

Dell 104-Key PS2 6P USA Keyboard NEW 227KN

[arnoldus]

Thanks for the suggestions, I will look into it!

[bigpook]

Thanks for the suggestions, I will look into it!

Good luck. Even though the Dell is priced very low, the offer is 10 dollars, it is still a good keyboard. It has black alps switches that have a nice feel to them. Its a full size keyboard though. Hopefully that is not a problem.

[andb]

Shipping on a board from the States to Europe will typically be 30-40USD, so it would be wise to look locally.

Ebay UK and Germany very often have some good used stuff floating around. You have to watch carefully because the names used are often different from goods in the states, for example Apple Extendeds usually are just listed as Apple ADB Keyboard on the German ebay site and you have to search through for the good old ones.

The IBM Ms go for a bit much on European Ebays, its actually often cheaper to ship from the states.

Most big cities have a university of technology. Just walk in and ask a couple students where the computer rooms are for students, and there you'll find someone monitoring the room who can tell you where the IT guys are. If they like you maybe they'll sell you some of the "junk" piled up in the corners.

I posted an advert on a local Linux forum that I was interested in old keyboards and walked out of a garage carying over 30 boards for 40USD, while many are good only for parts, most of them are really old and good Alps white, yellow and blue style switches. Try posting and see what you get. Just don't pay too much and avoid terminal boards or XT style boards (test on your laptop with a good ps2 -> USB converter before buying is the best policy)

European Cherry switch manufacturing is based in Germany and Czech, you can often find some of their new boards with browns and blues, but usually with a German layout.  There was a link in a forum here for an Austrian distributor who had a pretty good one for around 80EUR.

Try a WTB (Want To Buy) in the marketplace forum and maybe someone will have something they'd be happy to pass on to you. I'd be happy to sell you one of the many boards I picked up once I get a couple of them working... I still have to swap some bad switches.

[lal]

Cherry G80-3000

This is the keyboard made by Cherry itself using MX switches. It's available with blue, brown and black switches as you can see in the "Models" table. The "order now" link lets you select an online shop in Germany, UK or France, don't know if any of them ships to other countries. Keybo.de is selling any variant still in production when asked.

[lowpoly]

I've seen many Model Ms below Euro 15 lately on ebay Germany, I guess many sellers waited for Christmas to sell their's and now there are too many.

A new G80-3000 should cost around Euro 60,- shipped. Use price search sites then go with one that ships internationally. I bought my G80-3000 in Austria even though I am in Germany. They were the only ones who had it in stock (it was one of the rarer models).

Keybo.de is selling any variant still in production when asked.

Now that might be a way to get one of those new Cherry red boards...

[arnoldus]

Many thanks for your comments!
I had already looked into the 3000, but the torrent of different models confused me. I will see if I can find a good one (perhaps brown switch).
I'm also definitely going to buy a used 4100, they look purposeful.
Is the build quality of the iOne M10 still very bad?

[arnoldus]

What is cherry red like? Soft and mushy like the fruit :-)?

[bigpook]

What is cherry red like? Soft and mushy like the fruit :-)?

I hope not  : )

Are there Red Cherries available?

[Chloe]

The red Cherries are even lighter than blue and browns and are linear. I would still like to try them. The G80-3600LYC and G80-3494 have them.

[wellington1869]

I hope not  : )

Are there Red Cherries available?

I think they've just appeared in japan (so figure the usual time lag before they're spotted in the US, lol).  IIRC, I believe the consensus was that they're like a lighter black cherry (ie, black cherries had a relatively stiff spring, and were linear (no click, no bump)).

[lal]

Many thanks for your comments!
I had already looked into the 3000, but the torrent of different models confused me. I will see if I can find a good one (perhaps brown switch).

That would be the G80-3000LQCEU-0 (US layout).

I'm also definitely going to buy a used 4100, they look purposeful.

If you mean the G84-4100 keep in mind that the keys are smaller than on standard keyboards, key travel is less (like on laptops) and you really need to press quite the exact center of the keys. My personal opinion is that it sucks (flame on). I'd only recommend it if space requirements are  an absolute priority.

[arnoldus]

LQ is white cherry. LS is brown. LX is brown, LS is blue.

What is difference between LSM and LSC? Something with windows key, but I don't understand completely.

[lowpoly]

LS is blue.

C is "combo" which is usb with ps/2 adapter. M might be ps/2 only.

[lal]

LQ is white cherry. LS is brown. LX is brown, LS is blue.

Mmmh.  I'm confused now.  I own a G80 with blue and another board with black Cherrys which are clicky and linear respectively.  I've always been under the impression that there is only *one* other relevant type described by Cherry as "soft pressure point" which is also said about the browns. Geekhack wikis switch reference seems to indicate that white is identical to blue?  And what exactly does the term "tea-axis", googling which seems to lead only here, mean? Can anybody shed some light on this, please? :|

[Chloe]

Often brown switch translates from Japanese as tea-axis.

The white stem Cherries are like blues, but with differences:
http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=10043&postcount=52

By the way, the new white stem wellington refers to is actually the clear stem "tactile feel". Brown is "tactile feel (ergonomic)". Before the release of the new light linear red stem, Cherry told me there are generally only three types of switch in G80 models: click, linear and soft-touch.

[lal]

Often brown switch translates from Japanese as tea-axis.

Ah, okay, I see.

The white stem Cherries are like blues, but with differences:
http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=10043&postcount=52

So the white ones are some kind of a precursor to the blue ones?

By the way, the new white stem wellington refers to is actually the clear stem "tactile feel". Brown is "tactile feel (ergonomic)". Before the release of the new light linear red stem, Cherry told me there are generally only three types of switch in G80 models: click, linear and soft-touch.

We are certain black is "linear" and blue is "click" in Cherry speak. And what Cherry calls "soft-touch" or "ergonomic" has to be brown, no?

[Chloe]

So the white ones are some kind of a precursor to the blue ones?

I believe so.  

We are certain black is "linear" and blue is "click" in Cherry speak. And what Cherry calls "soft-touch" or "ergonomic" has to be brown, no?

The quoted descriptions in my last post are from their switch datasheets. I don't know how they describe new keyboards with brown switches.

[lal]

Mmh, I'll drop them an email and just ask for the color of their "soft-touch" switches. Thanks for clarifying, Chloe!

[subsurfaceoceans]

Can anyone here tell me if the Soft-Druckpunkt switches in a current G80-3000LQCDE-0 are brown or not brown?

[Chloe]

Q in LQC is for clear stem "soft tactile". Of current Cherry G80 keyboards, X is for brown stem (G80-3600LXC, G80-1865LXN).

[subsurfaceoceans]

Thank you.

I find reading very difficult, I'll will try harder.

[patrickgeekhack]

way to go iMav. the Dell may be the most cost effective for him though. It s the Europe thing that screws it up, maybe.

For the Dell, go to ebay and search for this

Dell 104-Key PS2 6P USA Keyboard NEW 227KN

How good is this keyboard? The price of the keyboard itself is very good, but shipping/taxes/custom broker fee to get it to Canada is what screws things up like you said. I'll have go get a USB-PS/2 adapter also.

I should stop reading this forum...I'll go broke. I just spent $140.00 to get a Customizer 104 to my doorsteps. Now I want a Dell, and a Das. And I have a huge problem. Once something got into my head, I can as hard as I want, I won't be able to get it out of my system...until I buy it that is.

[patrickgeekhack]

Sorry. What I meant by "How good is it?" was is it a mechanical one? I know "good" is a very subjective. I'm very tempted to get one, and start building my collection after my Customizer 104

[itlnstln]

The Dell is one of best keyboards I have ever owned.  It was my favorite keyboard until I got my ABSs.  Since the Dell and the ABS are pretty much the same switch technology, the change was more aesthetics than anything.

[itlnstln]

For clarification, the Dell uses tactile, non-clicky (real) Alps switches.

[patrickgeekhack]

@itlnstln: Thank you for your replies. One more question. You said that the Dell tactile non-clicky switches. Where does the noise I can hear from this post (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=1160) come from?

If I do get one, and the noise level is not very high, I will be able to take it with me to the office and enjoy a nice keyboard

Thank you again for answering my questions. People here really understand those who are into keyboards.

@Everyone
Once you have a collection of keyboard, is it hard to choose a keyboard to use? I mean, one can only use one keyboard at any given time.

[itlnstln]

Most of that is the key bottoming and topping out.  There is kind of a "sliding" sound as the switch moves over the tactile bump in the leaf, but it is not a click.  The sound sample is much louder than you would encounter on the keyboard during actual use.

[itlnstln]

Once you have a collection of keyboard, is it hard to choose a keyboard to use? I mean, one can only use one keyboard at any given time.

I think with a lot of people, it's a matter of trying all the switch types that interest them, and when they find one they like, there is sort of a "commitment" to it.  In my case, I started with the buckling springs in the M, then I got the Northgate with the clicky Alps and really liked it, but the noise was too much.  I then got my Dells and they were perfect.  They had the right feel and the right noise level.  I got a Cherry MX-based 'board with brown switches, but really didn't care for those as much as the Alps, so I started to use the Dells exclusively.  Lately, I got the ABS 'boards with the same type of switches as the Dells and I am still happy with all of them.  These days, I use an ABS at work and at home, but I keep my Dells just in case.

[patrickgeekhack]

Thanks itlnstln. I think I'll order the keyboard today. I'll also have to find an adapter/converter that will work with a MacBook just in case I would like to use it at home. At the office, my PC has a PS/2 port. I'm a bit worried about it working with my MacBook because of this : http://forums.macosxhints.com/showthread.php?t=88852.

But, if the noise level is not as high as you mentioned, I will most likely end up using it at the office.

Thanks again for all your replies. They were greatly appreciated.

[skriefal]

Just make certain that you buy an 'active' adapter.  This refers to an adapter with circuitry to translate the keyboard's PS/2 signals to the USB HID protocol.  The easiest way to find one of these it to purchase one of the adapters that has a USB plug on one side and two PS/2 plugs on the other side (for mouse & keyboard).  These are often marketed for use with laptops.

[patrickgeekhack]

@skriefal: Thank you for the suggestion.

I did it. I pulled the trigger on a Dell keyboard. I started with a Customizer 104 two weeks ago, and now I have bought a Dell. What's next on my list? Maybe a Das Professional and an ABS M1 :-) That is if my wife does not kill me. We just had a baby, and we cannot afford to spend money on keyboards when I already have more than one in the house.

[wellington1869]

@Everyone
Once you have a collection of keyboard, is it hard to choose a keyboard to use? I mean, one can only use one keyboard at any given time.

After trying everything I think most people wind up with just one or two favorite boards and then sell the rest. I wanted to come down to one, but I know several people here have two or three favorites that they switch between.  Its really just a matter of personal taste.
As you try different boards, you'll figure out what it is you yourself like and dislike, and that in turn will help you whittle down the choices. When I first started my search, part of the learning experience was to find out what I liked (which apparently I didnt really know before!).

[patrickgeekhack]

I have a long way to go (and  a lot of money to spend) before I can figure which keyboard I like best. I can wait for the Dell keyboard to arrive so that I can compare it to the Customizer.