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Author Topic: Quick question about Filco's blue Cherry models  (Read 5106 times)

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Offline doctorpiorno

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Quick question about Filco's blue Cherry models
« on: Thu, 12 February 2009, 02:05:23 »
Hi all,

My quest for the perfect mechanical keyboard with a Japanese layout is still on. I have been trying out a Filco Zero (white ALPS) for the last couple months and, although it was close to what I wanted, ultimately I have stopped using it for a single reason: some of the keys are prone to registering involuntary keystrokes.

To try and explain myself a bit better, I noticed that some of the keys would register a keystroke when the slightest weight was placed on them, even though the switch hadn't been engaged and hadn't made its signature clicky sound. Often, simply resting my finger on a key would cause it to register. It didn't happen all the time, but it did introduce unwanted characters pretty frequently and increase my typo count significantly. Besides, it defeats the purpose of having clicky keyswitches in the first place - if I can't trust the click to tell me that a keystroke has been registered, what use do I have for it?

So - the thing is, I have been oogling those blue Cherry Filco Tenkeyless that everyone has been buying lately as an alternative, but I'm somewhat scared off Filco's 'boards due to the aforementioned problem. These are pretty expensive even bought locally, and I would hate to get one only to discover it has the same issue. Hence the question (and I'm sorry it took me so long to get to the point):

Any proud owner of a blue Cherry Filco could post their impressions on their keyboard and, specifically, let me know if they have experienced any problems with their keyboards registering keystrokes before the switch clicks? If you happen to have experienced white Alps as well, how do the blues compare to them in terms of clicky goodness?

Thanks in advance, and please excuse the rambling.

Fran
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Offline eugenius

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Quick question about Filco's blue Cherry models
« Reply #1 on: Thu, 12 February 2009, 07:17:45 »
That's not a Filco problem, it's a well known problem of the Alps click switch. You need to bottom out the keys or get a blue cherry / light BS keyboard.

For an ALPS lover with this problem I recommend a japanese light BS Model M mini - if there is such a thing. :)

The blue cherries are lighter and have less "clicky goodness" as you call it, but as a result the keyboard is much better for touch typing than firm BS or white Alps.

Try a trade ... the Filco with white alps has a lot of fans here, if you bottom out the keys and do not mind the noise it's the best modern keyboard I think.

PS: I have a sneaky suspicion that the Topre Realforce 86 is the best tenless touch typing non ergo board there is. :) It does not click, but it's japanese. :)
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Offline bhtooefr

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Quick question about Filco's blue Cherry models
« Reply #2 on: Thu, 12 February 2009, 07:58:41 »
And I have a Scorpius M10 with blue Cherries, and the keystroke is sent immediately after the click, in the travel, but never before. The only time that's an issue is when rapidly typing more than one of the same character, and it just takes a little getting used to.
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Offline bigpook

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Quick question about Filco's blue Cherry models
« Reply #3 on: Thu, 12 February 2009, 08:44:05 »
I have the filco tenless with blue cherries and also with white xm switches.
I can enter the keystroke without clicking on the white xm but cannot do the same on the blue cherry.
They are both great keyboards though. I am preferring the blue cherries right now as they don;t wear out my fingers like the white xm does.

As a side note, I will be replacing the white xm switches with black alps that I am pulling out of a NIB Dell AT101W.
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Offline sandy55

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Quick question about Filco's blue Cherry models
« Reply #4 on: Thu, 12 February 2009, 09:08:38 »
Quote from: eugenius;21516
it's a well known problem of the Alps click switch.

I haven't encountered with such a problem on my ALPS boards ( genuine real-complicated ).

Quote
For an ALPS lover with this problem I recommend a japanese light BS Model M mini - if there is such a thing. :)


IBM Japan 5576-003


review is here . Spring is not so light though.
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Offline Chloe

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Quick question about Filco's blue Cherry models
« Reply #5 on: Thu, 12 February 2009, 16:50:41 »
I haven't had this problem with real complicated white ALPS either. I wonder if it is an issue with simplified only.
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Offline itlnstln

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Quick question about Filco's blue Cherry models
« Reply #6 on: Thu, 12 February 2009, 16:54:32 »
My ABS here at work registers right after the tactile bump.  Seeing as that it doesn't take much to push the keys that far, I could see where you might get some errant keystrokes.  I think, however, that where my 'board registers the keystroke is appropriate.
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Offline Chloe

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Quick question about Filco's blue Cherry models
« Reply #7 on: Thu, 12 February 2009, 17:20:05 »
Quote from: bigpook;21526
I can enter the keystroke without clicking on the white xm but cannot do the same on the blue cherry.

With careful pressing I can actuate a blue Cherry without it clicking. I can also retrigger it without it clicking as with ALPS by not fully releasing the key. Unlike with buckling spring, there is a little  point in the travel of both switches where you can retrigger without clicking.
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Offline zwmalone

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Quick question about Filco's blue Cherry models
« Reply #8 on: Thu, 12 February 2009, 18:57:41 »
Quote from: sandy55;21530


IBM Japan 5576-003
Show Image


review is here . Spring is not so light though.


Are those 'boards rare sandy?
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Can't get enough of them ALPS

Offline sandy55

  • Posts: 201
Quick question about Filco's blue Cherry models
« Reply #9 on: Thu, 12 February 2009, 21:12:48 »
Quote from: zwmalone;21590
Are those 'boards rare sandy?

I think so. I luckily got one in my MAD ( Microchannel-Addicted-Disorder ) days.
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Offline doctorpiorno

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Quick question about Filco's blue Cherry models
« Reply #10 on: Fri, 13 February 2009, 00:26:36 »
IBM Japan 5576-003


OMG. WANT! :-O

Thanks for the feedback on the blue cherries, everyone. Based on your comments, it seems like they should be a pretty safe bet, but I'm still concerned about the possibility of keystrokes registering before the tactile bump.

In the case of the Filco ZERO I have been using, keystrokes can definitely register before any tactile feedback occurs - some keys take just a very light pressure (think finger resting on a key) to trigger the keystroke. From Chloe's description, it seems like the blues require a pretty careful motion to pull off the same thing. With the ZERO, it happened involuntarily to me all the time.

Anyway, while I'm saving up for the next purchase, I'll be hitting Yahoo Auctions regularly in case one of those drool-worthy Model M minis pop up. If that happens... well, I guess we'll see if my limited Japanese ability is enough to see the deal through. 簡単な日本語でお願いします. ;)

Sandy - if you happen to know someone with a spare Japanese Model M to sell, I'd be grateful if you could point them my way. よろしくお願いします. :)
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Offline doctorpiorno

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Quick question about Filco's blue Cherry models
« Reply #11 on: Fri, 13 February 2009, 00:40:15 »
Jesus. Is this REALLY a Japanese Model M13?

...

Damn. This is going to get expensive.
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Offline bhtooefr

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Quick question about Filco's blue Cherry models
« Reply #12 on: Fri, 13 February 2009, 00:46:48 »
That's a 5576-003. Not at all an M13.

An M13 is a TrackPoint board.

The closest Japanese relative of the M13 is (correct me if I'm wrong) the 5576-C01, which is internally very similar to a Model M13, but in Japanese layout, with a smaller case - and that case is what's used by the Unicomp EnduraPro today.
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Offline sandy55

  • Posts: 201
Quick question about Filco's blue Cherry models
« Reply #13 on: Fri, 13 February 2009, 02:37:23 »
Quote from: doctorpiorno;21605
Jesus. Is this REALLY a Japanese Model M13?

Damn. This is going to get expensive.


'Cause I've been away from auctions for these three years, I do not know current street prices of these keyboards. But I feel the final price of said 003 is a bargain.
As stated in item description, 001/002/003 aren't fully supported on Windows2000 and later. Registry modification or INF file modification is needed.
5576-A01 is stock ready with 2000 and XP ( and maybe Vista ).

Keep checking Yahoo, and follow ending price.
Most of Japanese sellers in Yahoo auction state that they will not ship internationally. Better to ask them before you bid on one.
Please be advised that 5576-B01 is a membrane board.
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Offline bhtooefr

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Quick question about Filco's blue Cherry models
« Reply #14 on: Fri, 13 February 2009, 07:40:59 »
Quote from: sandy55;21612
As stated in item description, 001/002/003 aren't fully supported on Windows2000 and later. Registry modification or INF file modification is needed.


Why would that need to be modified? It's a PS/2 keyboard, right? :confused:
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Offline sandy55

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Quick question about Filco's blue Cherry models
« Reply #15 on: Fri, 13 February 2009, 09:01:19 »
Quote from: bhtooefr;21623
Why would that need to be modified? It's a PS/2 keyboard, right? :confused:


Because they use different code set.  and they need specific keyboard driver. keyboard driver itself is stock ready in all windows Ver. but not implemented in keyboard inf in windows 2000 and later.  001/002/003 are not fully compatible with PS/2 specification.
 
In DOS era, IBM Japan used their own modified MS-DOS( PC-DOS) named JDOS to use with PS/55.  001/002/003 were originally designed to be used with JDOS.
   
This thread is not for debating 5576 keyboards.  So please read following pages about JDOS and 5576 keyboards.  It's time to go back to main subject of this thread.

about system specific DOS ( the page is for Display adapter but in first section there is a brief introduction about JDOS )

about 5576 keyboards.  Introduction of each keyboard are somehow outdated.  No time to update wrong statements.
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Offline doctorpiorno

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Quick question about Filco's blue Cherry models
« Reply #16 on: Fri, 13 February 2009, 13:08:20 »
Quote from: bhtooefr;21607
That's a 5576-003. Not at all an M13.

My bad. I posted the wrong link - I meant this one.
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Offline bhtooefr

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Quick question about Filco's blue Cherry models
« Reply #17 on: Fri, 13 February 2009, 13:28:15 »
OK, that's closer to an EnduraPro than an M13. (But, it's derived from the M13, and the EnduraPro is derived from it, IIRC.)
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Offline sandy55

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Quick question about Filco's blue Cherry models
« Reply #18 on: Fri, 13 February 2009, 18:45:35 »
If anybody can access IBM newsletter, please search letter for Model M13.  Number supposed to be G2213946.
Once I read it but now my request is denied.

IIRC, M13 was announced around 1996 ( may be by Lexmark ) while PS/55 5538 with 5576-C01 was announced in 1993.    If so, M13 could not be a predecessor to c03 and EnduraPro.
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Offline dw_junon

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Quick question about Filco's blue Cherry models
« Reply #19 on: Fri, 13 February 2009, 19:08:48 »
Quote from: sandy55;21668
If anybody can access IBM newsletter, please search letter for Model M13.  Number supposed to be G2213946.
Once I read it but now my request is denied.

This sounds very interesting.  I don't know of public access to such a newsletter, how did you read it before?

Quote from: sandy55;21668
IIRC, M13 was announced around 1996 ( may be by Lexmark ) while PS/55 5538 with 5576-C01 was announced in 1993.    If so, M13 could not be a predecessor to c03 and EnduraPro.

I can't find an announcement letter for the M13.  Clickykeyboards.com has examples dated back to 1994, though.  Yes, all Lexmark at this point I think.
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ARC/Chicony KB-5181 XT/AT blue ALPS? 101 US FCC ID E8H51KKB-5181 • AST ASTKB102 AT capacitive rubber dome 102 UK ISO
Cherry G80-2100 AT black Cherry 126 key German ISO unique • Compaq Enhanced III PS/2 unknown rubber dome 102 UK ISO
Datacomp DFK102ARA03 AT 102 blue ALPS? US/Arabic FCC ID blank, S/N 37880001 • Dell AT102W PS/2 Black ALPS 105 UK ISO x2
Fujitsu KFB4725-102 AT membrane rubber dome with spring 105 UK ISO • Hewlett Packard C1405A AT rubber dome 102 UK ISO
IBM 0989705 XT/AT no LEDs Model M 102 US/Arabic  • IBM 1388076 Industrial AT Model M 102 UK ISO
IBM 1389260 3179/3180 Display Station Model M 122 US 3270 x2 • IBM 1391406 PS/2 Model M 102 UK ISO x2
IBM 1397003 PS/2 Model M "Host Connect" emulator 122 German ISO • IBM 71G4643 PS/2 Model M Quiet Touch "Ouch!    Rubber spring" 102 UK ISO x2
IBM 5640987 3178 Display Station Model C2 capacitive buckling spring 87 key US 3270 • IBM 556-712-01 RT PC rubber dome [same as 2nd PCjr kbd?] 101 US
IBM 6450225 PC/AT capacitive buckling spring 84 key UK PC/AT • Lexmark 8125460 Model M2 102 UK ISO
NMB RT-102 117456-002 AT Hi-Tek black, clicky 102 UK ISO • Olivetti ANK 2462 M24 Personal Computer keyboard 2 clicky Olivetti spring module 102 UK unique
Ortek MCK-142Pro AT white ALPS 142 key UK • Sun 540-1006-03 Type unknown linear(?) keyswitch 2 87 key SunType2
Wang 724 725-3771-UK salmon ALPS 110 key UK Wang724 • Making this list hasn\'t half scared me...
[/I]

Offline Chloe

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Quick question about Filco's blue Cherry models
« Reply #20 on: Fri, 13 February 2009, 19:30:43 »
Quote from: sandy55;21668
If anybody can access IBM newsletter, please search letter for Model M13.  Number supposed to be G2213946.
Once I read it but now my request is denied.


Was this the page?
http://web.archive.org/web/19990128114740/http://www1.ibmlink.ibm.com/HTML/SPEC/g2213946.html
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Offline bhtooefr

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Quick question about Filco's blue Cherry models
« Reply #21 on: Fri, 13 February 2009, 21:20:34 »
Also, I believe IBM had prototypes of the TrackPoint in the Model M chassis as early as 1992 - yes, testing before the ThinkPad hardware was ready...
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Offline sandy55

  • Posts: 201
Quick question about Filco's blue Cherry models
« Reply #22 on: Fri, 13 February 2009, 23:25:43 »
Quote from: dw_junon;21669
This sounds very interesting.  I don't know of public access to such a newsletter, how did you read it before?

I don't remember. Maybe I saw one that Chloe pointed.

Quote
I can't find an announcement letter for the M13.  Clickykeyboards.com has examples dated back to 1994, though.  Yes, all Lexmark at this point I think.

Well, now we reached  mfg year M13 back to 1994. Does any body have M13 dated earlier than 1994?

Anyway I think C03( including Endurapro ) is in deferent stream from M13.
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Offline dw_junon

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Quick question about Filco's blue Cherry models
« Reply #23 on: Sun, 15 February 2009, 19:38:10 »
Quote from: Chloe;21671
Was this the page?
http://web.archive.org/web/19990128114740/http://www1.ibmlink.ibm.com/HTML/SPEC/g2213946.html

Ah, that's brilliant.  Thanks again Chloe!

There is a note there that says 8-96 below the copyright date of 1996, so perhaps August 1996 is the date of the announcement and availability to customers?  This is as a separate option though, it may have been offered with systems earlier, and certainly existing within IBM much earlier, though I don't know about those prototypes (sounds fascinating; could you elaborate, bhtooefr?).

Anyhow, Sandy, this document appears to have been on IBM-LINK at http://www.ibmlink.ibm.com/, which now requires an IBM ID to access.  From what I remember on the PS/2 newsgroup, I think you need to have a IBM customer number to get a IBM ID, so I can't help with this, sorry.
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ARC/Chicony KB-5181 XT/AT blue ALPS? 101 US FCC ID E8H51KKB-5181 • AST ASTKB102 AT capacitive rubber dome 102 UK ISO
Cherry G80-2100 AT black Cherry 126 key German ISO unique • Compaq Enhanced III PS/2 unknown rubber dome 102 UK ISO
Datacomp DFK102ARA03 AT 102 blue ALPS? US/Arabic FCC ID blank, S/N 37880001 • Dell AT102W PS/2 Black ALPS 105 UK ISO x2
Fujitsu KFB4725-102 AT membrane rubber dome with spring 105 UK ISO • Hewlett Packard C1405A AT rubber dome 102 UK ISO
IBM 0989705 XT/AT no LEDs Model M 102 US/Arabic  • IBM 1388076 Industrial AT Model M 102 UK ISO
IBM 1389260 3179/3180 Display Station Model M 122 US 3270 x2 • IBM 1391406 PS/2 Model M 102 UK ISO x2
IBM 1397003 PS/2 Model M "Host Connect" emulator 122 German ISO • IBM 71G4643 PS/2 Model M Quiet Touch "Ouch!    Rubber spring" 102 UK ISO x2
IBM 5640987 3178 Display Station Model C2 capacitive buckling spring 87 key US 3270 • IBM 556-712-01 RT PC rubber dome [same as 2nd PCjr kbd?] 101 US
IBM 6450225 PC/AT capacitive buckling spring 84 key UK PC/AT • Lexmark 8125460 Model M2 102 UK ISO
NMB RT-102 117456-002 AT Hi-Tek black, clicky 102 UK ISO • Olivetti ANK 2462 M24 Personal Computer keyboard 2 clicky Olivetti spring module 102 UK unique
Ortek MCK-142Pro AT white ALPS 142 key UK • Sun 540-1006-03 Type unknown linear(?) keyswitch 2 87 key SunType2
Wang 724 725-3771-UK salmon ALPS 110 key UK Wang724 • Making this list hasn\'t half scared me...
[/I]

Offline bigpook

  • Posts: 1723
Quick question about Filco's blue Cherry models
« Reply #24 on: Sun, 15 February 2009, 19:54:11 »
Quote from: Chloe;21583
With careful pressing I can actuate a blue Cherry without it clicking. I can also retrigger it without it clicking as with ALPS by not fully releasing the key. Unlike with buckling spring, there is a little  point in the travel of both switches where you can retrigger without clicking.


funny, buy I tried that on the blue cherry filco, and could not get it to go without the click. Once clicked, if you do not let the key ride back up all the way, then yes, I can re-register key strokes.

The white xm were fairly easy to get to register without clicking. Annoying yes, but it wasn't something that was a show stopper for me. Most of the time I would be typing away anyways so its not like it really mattered.
 It was noticeable only when the fingers were resting on the keys, while writing an email or something, and just a little bit of pressure would register the stroke...
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Offline bhtooefr

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Quick question about Filco's blue Cherry models
« Reply #25 on: Sun, 15 February 2009, 20:28:27 »
I do have an IBM ID, but I get an error message upon signing in.

(Actually, I have two IBM IDs, but I can't remember the password to my personal one, and the error I'm getting is on the one I signed up for with my former employer.)
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Offline Chloe

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Quick question about Filco's blue Cherry models
« Reply #26 on: Mon, 16 February 2009, 07:19:48 »
Quote from: bigpook;21812
funny, buy I tried that on the blue cherry filco, and could not get it to go without the click. Once clicked, if you do not let the key ride back up all the way, then yes, I can re-register key strokes.

It's harder to produce (easier without keycaps fitted) compared to ALPS. I doubt it will be an issue whilst typing normally.
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