Why do some people like TKL or non standard smaller sized keyboards?

[IvanIvanovich]

For me it's all about comfort and arm position. I would much rather be able to have my arms like this |        | on keyboard and mouse with a smaller keyboard, than like this |                         / with a full size.

[Candyflip]

For me it's all about comfort and arm position. I would much rather be able to have my arms like this |        | on keyboard and mouse with a smaller keyboard, than like this |                         / with a full size.

The only reason why I prefer TKL over standard size keyboards, can't get used to no function row on 60% though   

[nar]

For all the people worrying about desk space... Does no one else use a keyboard tray?

[smknjoe]

For all the people worrying about desk space... Does no one else use a keyboard tray?

Those are much more limited in space than a desk top.

[Grim Fandango]

For all the people worrying about desk space... Does no one else use a keyboard tray?

My experience is that they make things even more cramped.

I prefer everything on the desk being at the same comfortable height, and having the whole desk as a working space.

[HPE1000]

I have a pretty massive desk and I still love it when I have my poker on it as opposed to my model m or filco. I can also put my mouse closer in while gaming, one of the many reasons I use the poker for gaming (also black switches, etc, but the size is still a huge reason to use it)

This is coming from me though, a person who loves mini itx computer and is also planning on getting the 40% keyboard when it is available.

[rowdy]

For all the people worrying about desk space... Does no one else use a keyboard tray?

I can't stand keyboard trays.

Btw for those with limited desk space who really can only use TKL, but who also miss having a dedicated numpad occasionally, why not get a stand-alone numpad?  Have the best of both worlds

[IvanIvanovich]

I also hate keyboard trays. 99% of the time I encounter them the mouse is on the desk anyway since it couldn't fit on the tray. Having the keyboard and mouse at different levels also bugs the **** out of me too.

[PolaBurrr]

tkl is definitely a benefit if you do not input numbers a lot. If you just do the occasional number in password or inputting numbers in text fields, and you either game or have limited desk space, then tkl is the way to go imo.

[Linkbane]

For all the people worrying about desk space... Does no one else use a keyboard tray?

I really don't like the keyboard tray that I have and consequently don't use it. My vision is quite poor and without glasses, I need to be maybe a meter at most away from the screen. As you can see I do quite a lot of speed typing, and having the keyboard lower than the monitor is quite uncomfortable. Also, I tend to push it inwards slightly so that I can see the monitor better, and then it ends up knocking my (quite long) fingers against the bottom of the desk.

[tbc]

the keyboard tray is WHY i can't go bigger than Tkl.

i have NEVER found a tray than can fit both a fullsize and a mouse confortably.

keeping the mouse on top is retarded.  the amount of hand movement between mouse and board is clown-like.

[fohat.digs]

the amount of hand movement between mouse and board is clown-like.

I keep mice on both sides. Is that movement magician-like?

[rowdy]

Heh I switched from HHKB to Model M for a little (for various reasons).

I am finding that my mouse hand keeps hitting the right side of the keyboard, and I keep shifting the keyboard from left to right across the desk.

Definitely prefer TKL (or 60%)

[Macsmasher]

I use TKL and HHKB. I can touch type numbers in the top row. However, for a lot of number entry, there is no question that a tenkey is more efficient. So...I have a numberpad. I have the Realforce numberpad, but here's a nice Filco with browns for $45: http://www.amazon.com/Filco-Majestouch-TenKeyPad-Tactile-Numberpad/dp/B000MGBPNI/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1390773579&sr=8-1&keywords=filco+numpad

My numpad sits under my display. I simply pull it out when I need to do a lot of number entry. My accountant comes to my office once a week to do my accounting. Nobody does more number entry than an accountant, and this guy tenkeys so fast, you almost can't differentiate individual keystrokes. He liked my separate numpad so much that he ordered a Filco TKL and the above numpad and dumped his full sized Das board. That was six weeks ago. I asked him last week how he likes the new setup. He said he'll never go back to a full sized board with attached numpad.

Regarding compact layouts: I'm a programmer, and I've been using my HHKB about 75% of the time these days. Once I adjusted to using the secondary layer, it's actually faster than a standard keyboard layout simply because of reduced finger movement. F keys can be actuated without reaching. I run three displays, so easily moving windows between them is a must. I can do that on the HHKB with my right hand. That requires two hands on a standard layout. Keyboard shortcuts are faster too.

One of the best changes I made on my HHKB was making the left Win key a Fn key. Now I can use arrow keys, PgUp, PgDn, Home and End without leaving home row...and without taking my eyes off my display. Seriously, it's really fast to navigate.

Compact doesn't come without some cost however. I miss having a right Control key. I'd like to have a left Win key in addition to the Fn key. However, these are minor issues when compared to the benefits of a compact layout.

Another benefit is mouse use. I know this doesn't concern most users, but I mouse with both hands and have a mouse and mouse pad on each side of my keyboard. I'm right handed, but left mouse about 60% of the time. When I game, I use left mouse. Having a compact or TKL board allows me to keep my mice in close on each side.

[tbc]

ever tried a minila?  it can do every case you talked about with only minor tweaks and still has cursor keys for wīndows.

the amount of hand movement between mouse and board is clown-like.

I keep mice on both sides. Is that movement magician-like?

more like deliriously-overworked-sysadmin-like.  but i've seriously considered doing this with a razer naga on my left hand to serve as a really small gamingpad with all the keys mapped to macros.

[fohat.digs]

My left mouse get the most consistent use when I am using the numpad and/or arrow keys.

[Grim Fandango]

I also hate keyboard trays. 99% of the time I encounter them the mouse is on the desk anyway since it couldn't fit on the tray. Having the keyboard and mouse at different levels also bugs the **** out of me too.

Yeah, that is the most annoying thing. Like many people I play videogames. I play FPS like Counterstrike :GO, and since I play on low sensitivity, I need a big mousepad. A lot of people using keyboard trays have a tiny mousepad on which they do their gaming. That would be terrible to me. I would literally rather play on the floor without a desk than have my main input device be confined to such a small area.

[nar]

I guess I'm just a bit wierd then, I can't stand having the mouse on the same level as the keyboard. Being able to rest your entire arm on the table is just so comfortable.

[Candyflip]

I guess I'm just a bit wierd then, I can't stand having the mouse on the same level as the keyboard. Being able to rest your entire arm on the table is just so comfortable.

I would suggest you to try some ergonomic chair with armrests, at least for me it made a huge difference.

[IvanIvanovich]

LOL... even though I am primarily a 60% user... I use a ****ing 150cmX75cm DINING TABLE for my PC desk. Plenty of elbow room, quite literally. Elbows on the table!!!
I like my PC off the floor, have a 27" display and need room for my speakers on the table too. I'm also a low sens gamer... though not 100% by choice but I use MX Revolution on 1440p so...
I almost wish my desk was even a bit bigger... it would be nice to fit my turntable and some other bits and pieces on there as well.

[dustinhxc]

omg I hate keyboard trays.. I have to have my 60%, Numberpad, Mouse. all same level and very comfortable.

[SonOfSonOfSpock]

Kinesis has the biggest keyboard tray I've seen. They have a 30" wide and a 26" wide. I have the 30" and it can fit a full size keyboard, my trackball, and still has more room. You could easily do a pointing device on each side although it might be different for gamers who need a large mousepad.

Per the actual topic, I don't need a numpad except for a couple instances like IP addresses. I really like the story about the accountant going for the separate numpad. I don't think I'll do a full size again.

[smknjoe]

Per the actual topic, I don't need a numpad except for a couple instances like IP addresses.

That's the kind of number entry that I find easier with the number row as opposed to the the number pad. Like Macsmasher said, you don't have to move your hands away from the home row. I guess lots of people just learned to use the numpad and never used the number row.

[SonOfSonOfSpock]

Per the actual topic, I don't need a numpad except for a couple instances like IP addresses.

That's the kind of number entry that I find easier with the number row as opposed to the the number pad. Like Macsmasher said, you don't have to move your hands away from the home row. I guess lots of people just learned to use the numpad and never used the number row.

That's spot on. I've been teaching myself to use the number row lately. I can see the period being closer to the numbers on a numpad being easier for things like ip addresses and accounting work though, but I don't know if that's me making things up.

[Macsmasher]

My left mouse get the most consistent use when I am using the numpad and/or arrow keys.

Exactly. I was doing a lot of CAD back in the early 90s. We were working in metric, so numpad was the way to go. I had never seen anybody using a mouse on each side, but I added a mouse for my left hand. Took about a month to get used to since it's my off hand. But in CAD, I could mouse with left hand and tenkey in coordinates. And for spreadsheet entry, click a cell and tenkey the number. Made a huge difference in speed. Then I started FPS gaming about '94 and for whatever reason started out using my left hand for mouse.

I'm actually surprised there aren't more left handed ergonomic mice. DeathAdder is the only option (besides some goofy vertical contraption). I would think they could use the same electronics and switches in a left handed body. Couldn't be that expensive to produce.

[smknjoe]

Per the actual topic, I don't need a numpad except for a couple instances like IP addresses.

That's the kind of number entry that I find easier with the number row as opposed to the the number pad. Like Macsmasher said, you don't have to move your hands away from the home row. I guess lots of people just learned to use the numpad and never used the number row.

That's spot on. I've been teaching myself to use the number row lately. I can see the period being closer to the numbers on a numpad being easier for things like ip addresses and accounting work though, but I don't know if that's me making things up.

I'm serious I've been doing it so long it's just second nature to hit the period with my ring finger just like I'm typing a sentence.

[kilogeek]

There are 3 distinct crowds on GH....

Collectors...  they'll buy anything, in fact, that's essentially what they're trying to do, BUY EVERYTHING...

N00bs... they'll read a spec sheet and compare features they have no use for, then they'll buy something, it makes them happy as long as they can keep talking about it. <-most topre fanbois fall here...

USERS...  the keyboard is an extension of oneself..    These people have an Egdx.. they sacrifice all aesthetics to pursue the most "usable" keyboard.

Nice summerize, I feel being a mix of collector and user... Anyway, numpad is almost mandatory on an AZERTY keyboard as long as you use it for other things then gaming. Even for gaming I love to have a numpad, because these keys can do a nice shorcuts pad for right-hand in games where you can play w/o mouse (somme people play WoW w/o using mouse when they fight, and these are the most efficient in high rated PvP). That's also why I hate laptops, these small keyboards layout and flat keys make me mad 

[Wildcard]

I enjoy TKL because it gives me more space on my pullout keyboard trays to add my trackball while pulling in my mouse closer. I use a trackball and a standard optical mouse on all of my setups. Also, the number pad can be a pain sometimes when you accidentally forget that the keys don't register the same in certain applications.

[tbc]

My left mouse get the most consistent use when I am using the numpad and/or arrow keys.

Exactly. I was doing a lot of CAD back in the early 90s. We were working in metric, so numpad was the way to go. I had never seen anybody using a mouse on each side, but I added a mouse for my left hand. Took about a month to get used to since it's my off hand. But in CAD, I could mouse with left hand and tenkey in coordinates. And for spreadsheet entry, click a cell and tenkey the number. Made a huge difference in speed. Then I started FPS gaming about '94 and for whatever reason started out using my left hand for mouse.

I'm actually surprised there aren't more left handed ergonomic mice. DeathAdder is the only option (besides some goofy vertical contraption). I would think they could use the same electronics and switches in a left handed body. Couldn't be that expensive to produce.

i use razer naga 2014 lefthanded.

the amount of work to make the mold is exactly the same.

but the market for left-handed users is TEENY-TINY; i would bet it is much smaller than the market for left-handed guitars.  I've heard a number that left-handed sales was less than one percent of right-handed mice for a local chain in vancouver.  I mean, how many people have actually used a left-handed mouse before?  how much marketing do you see for them?

EDIT: before someone calls me out; a lefthanded mouse and an ambidextrous mouse is NEVER the same thing.

[kilogeek]

LOL... even though I am primarily a 60% user... I use a ****ing 150cmX75cm DINING TABLE for my PC desk. Plenty of elbow room, quite literally. Elbows on the table!!!
I like my PC off the floor, have a 27" display and need room for my speakers on the table too. I'm also a low sens gamer... though not 100% by choice but I use MX Revolution on 1440p so...
I almost wish my desk was even a bit bigger... it would be nice to fit my turntable and some other bits and pieces on there as well.

LOL, I also use a dining table (Ikea with a heavy glass plate), and though my PC tower is on the floor (coolest air there), I feel I still need more place : Phone, 1 Dell 27" Monitor, 1 19" secondary monitor, Xonar sound card and all Hi-Fi audio are on the floor with router, NAS and hub. No more place to put a scanner... Need these expensive VESA orientable arms to free space on desk^^

[jonathanyu]

I had used full size keyboard for a long time, until I bought my first TKL keyboard.  After using TKL, I found that the numpad is not that useful, and it also make the mouse become too far away from the keybaord.  So I keep on using TKL

[fohat.digs]

I mean, how many people have actually used a left-handed mouse before?

I switched from right mouse to left a few of years ago, although I am strongly right-handed and have used mice since the 1980s. It took a month.

A couple of years ago I got the Wow Joy Pen mouse and fell in love, it is the best! (But I never game, and gamers think it is too slow.)

Unfortunately, it is only available in right hand configuration, so I use symmetrical mice for the left. I tried the Evoluent Left-Hand mouse which was the most horrible abomination that I have ever rested my hand on. It was as if they spent months of research to ensure that they got every single detail exactly WRONG!

Now I just wait and hope that Wow Joy will decide to make a left-hand version, and use my ancient Microsoft Optical Mouse 1.1 in the meantime.

[robertsig]

I like TKL because that's what I first learned to use. The first PCs available (Apple, Apple II, Commodore, etc.) had no numpad, but they did have the number row. My first PC was a Commodore Vic 20 and at school we had Apple II.

I was thinking the same thing.  I had an Apple II+, then IIe for most of the 80's before getting my first PC around 1990.  IMO, it's not that TKL keyboards deviate from the standard, but 101/104 keyboards do!

[synerr]

Pretty much everything's been said, but here is how I feel about it:

- The fact that you're asking that question here means that probably before you know it you will have spent a fortune on different keyboards and, if you don't already, end up with a shelf full of any possible combination of sizes, switches, keycaps, etc :-)

- As my main daily typing board I use a Kinesis contoured with mx-browns.  I have come to loathe the Kinesis but it helps me with my bad wrists.  Immediately to the right is my Kensington SlimBlade trackball so my right hand movement from keyboard to trackball is minimal.  To the left hand side I keep a mouse button to click with my left hand while I'm pointing with my right.

- I LOVE the aesthetics of full sized keyboards.  They are simply put ... beautiful.

- A negative for the full length is that you may find yourself posturing to the left because the keys you type on most are on the left half of the keyboard.  Alternatively you may offset the keyboard to the right, which will also (if right handed) place your mouse further to the right increasing right hand travel.

- A TKL is great if you need Function and arrow keys a lot.  For same as above the pointing device could be closer to your right hand than with a full sized keyboard.

- For whole days spent entering numbers (doesn't really happen) I would probably use a separate numpad.  I may be tempted to keep my TKL at the centre, a mouse to the right and a numpad to the left.

- If I were an accountant mostly spending days in a text terminal keying in numbers, I would probably prefer a full sized keyboard.

- Whilst travelling I am now using exclusively a poker 2 60%.  My job is mostly about going through log files, c code, text debuggers and almost all navigation and editing is within vi.  So most of my time is within what can be very comfortably achieved within the 60%

- Aren't there also the TK keyboards, such as the QFR, which give you the tkl width but a full numpad?

- Good luck in your quest

[Candyflip]

- Aren't there also the TK keyboards, such as the QFR, which give you the tkl width but a full numpad?

I think you meant QuickFire TK but other than that spot on.

[kilogeek]

TK keyboard has a reduced size with numpad but its layout is a fail IMO, G80-11800 is IMO the best solution to have your mouse closer to your left hand while keeping an almost standard layout.

[nar]

I would suggest you to try some ergonomic chair with armrests, at least for me it made a huge difference.

They had those at a lab I was in for a while. Still couldn't stand putting the mouse beside the keyboard, had to go behind the desk and rewire the stuff to put the mouse above the keyboard. On the otherhand, using the keyboard with those armrests was quite a joy.

Though for me, other than of course entering tons of numeric data using the numpad. FFXI has cemeted my constant use of the numpad, since with the numpad you didn't even need to use the mouse in that game.

[Candyflip]

I would suggest you to try some ergonomic chair with armrests, at least for me it made a huge difference.

They had those at a lab I was in for a while. Still couldn't stand putting the mouse beside the keyboard, had to go behind the desk and rewire the stuff to put the mouse above the keyboard. On the otherhand, using the keyboard with those armrests was quite a joy.

Though for me, other than of course entering tons of numeric data using the numpad. FFXI has cemeted my constant use of the numpad, since with the numpad you didn't even need to use the mouse in that game.

Yea I was like you used to keyboard tray my whole life, now I just can't stand my keyboard being on a different level form my mouse. But hey whatever suits you the best right?