IBM Model M Owners: Need emergency help.

[dr/owned]

Short and sweet: sold an old IBM Model M (M13: black) keyboard I had lying around on ebay.  Buyer is now claiming the spacebar is slanted and doesn't work when pressed from the right side.  I noticed this when I was checking it over, but the spacebar seems to work fine if you hit it near the center.

Normal functionality or is something really wrong?  Unfortunately I haven't used the keyboard in 10 years so I don't remember if it's always been like that.  (It's also annoying that the buyer went straight to an ebay claim without even bothering to message me).

[E TwentyNine]

Stabilizer is out of position.   Tell him to pull the spacebar and reseat it, making sure the stabilizer bar goes under the little tabs in front of it.

[fohat.digs]

There is a wire stabilizer under the spacebar that slips into a hold-down tab on each side.

It is very likely that the wire stabilizer has jumped out from under the tab on that side.

This is a 2-second fix if you know what you are doing, but some people might be flummoxed by it.

Or there may be a real problem of some other type.

[dr/owned]

Ok so shamelessly stealing someone else's picture, does the stabilizer bar hook into the holes that I arrowed in red, and then slide under the tabs arrowed in green?  I'm a IBM Model M disassembly virgin.

[Aer Fixus]

Ok so shamelessly stealing someone else's picture, does the stabilizer bar hook into the holes that I arrowed in red, and then slide under the tabs arrowed in green?  I'm a IBM Model M disassembly virgin.

Show Image

Yes. Exactly like that. It's something that could have been plausibly dislodged during shipping, so give instructions on how to fix it and don't lead on that it may have been like that before hand.

I would find an image of a cleaner keyboard if you send a diagram like this to the buyer. A diagram like this would be helpful to show them if you present it a bit better.

[fohat.digs]

I would find an image of a cleaner keyboard if you send a diagram like this to the buyer.

Show them a dirty one so that they will appreciate your clean one more (assuming that yours is clean!).

[dr/owned]

Hopefully the plastic tabs are still there and I didn't somehow break them 10 years ago.  The buyer kinda has my hands tied now by immediately opening a case with ebay so hopefully he doesn't take offense that I don't want to spend $20 shipping it back to me when he could spend 2 minutes trying to fix the problem himself.

[Aer Fixus]

Hopefully the plastic tabs are still there and I didn't somehow break them 10 years ago.  The buyer kinda has my hands tied now by immediately opening a case with ebay so hopefully he doesn't take offense that I don't want to spend $20 shipping it back to me when he could spend 2 minutes trying to fix the problem himself.

Did you sell it as-is? If so, the buyer can't do anything because they got exactly what was pictured and described, although the eBay bias towards buyers is a tad annoying in situations like this.

[127001]

Hopefully the plastic tabs are still there and I didn't somehow break them 10 years ago.  The buyer kinda has my hands tied now by immediately opening a case with ebay so hopefully he doesn't take offense that I don't want to spend $20 shipping it back to me when he could spend 2 minutes trying to fix the problem himself.

A new space bar can be bought for much less than the cost of shipping.

[dr/owned]

I tried to get the buyer to fix the problem himself, but he just wants to send it back.  Probably buyer's remorse is a big part of that.  Not let's hope he doesn't give me negative feedback.

[fohat.digs]

Now let's hope he doesn't give me negative feedback.

If you sold a good item, properly described, and refunded his expenses, he has no grounds to hit you with negative feedback.

You should always test your items and describe them in accurate detail.

Also, pay attention to ebay's policies regarding returns, refunds, turnaround times, etc.

You can also sell items as "for parts or not working" and specify "as-is" but the presumption on ebay is that anything you sell is in proper working order straight out of the box, unless you have specifically described it otherwise.

[E TwentyNine]

I tried to get the buyer to fix the problem himself, but he just wants to send it back.  Probably buyer's remorse is a big part of that.  Not let's hope he doesn't give me negative feedback.

He may just be looking for an excuse. Do you have a link to your listing?

[rowdy]

Hopefully the plastic tabs are still there and I didn't somehow break them 10 years ago.  The buyer kinda has my hands tied now by immediately opening a case with ebay so hopefully he doesn't take offense that I don't want to spend $20 shipping it back to me when he could spend 2 minutes trying to fix the problem himself.

A new space bar can be bought for much less than the cost of shipping.

http://pckeyboard.com/page/Buttons/SB

Perhaps you could offer to buy one of these and ship it to the buyer.  All he needs to do is swap space bars over.

To me that would be much, much easier than going to the hassle of repackaging and shipping the whole keyboard back.

Unless, of course, it is buyer's remorse.  Not much you can do in that case.

[dr/owned]

To give an update.  I received the keyboard back and the spacebar needs replacing.  One of the prongs that holds the metal bar has broken at some point.

[fohat.digs]

One of the prongs that holds the metal bar has broken at some point.

That is a weak point, but probably indicates abuse by "someone"

[E TwentyNine]

To give an update.  I received the keyboard back and the spacebar needs replacing.  One of the prongs that holds the metal bar has broken at some point.

A new spacebar is about $7 shipped from Unicomp.   

I'm still interested in seeing the wording of your listing.

[kilogeek]

Take it back, fix the stabilizater, keep it one or 2 months and sell it again for twice the price  ) ) )

[kilogeek]

One of the prongs that holds the metal bar has broken at some point.

That is a weak point, but probably indicates abuse by "someone"

abuse = the one who pulled off the spacebar for cleaning spends too much time bodybuilding 

(anyway this is not the only weakness of model M : BS and backplate are the strong parts, but cheap 3 layers contact films is what you get on all cheap dome keyboards... first cause of model M issues)

[kilogeek]

and plastic rivets on a non-waterproof assembly is a design failure (or intentional ?)

It would not have cost more for IBM to use clips fixation and I will still have my almost impossible to find AZERTY model M on my desk.... 

[Aer Fixus]

and plastic rivets on a non-waterproof assembly is a design failure (or intentional ?)

It would not have cost more for IBM to use clips fixation and I will still have my almost impossible to find AZERTY model M on my desk.... 

What happened to the AZERTY board? Did the plastic rivets break? Was something spilled on it?

[kilogeek]

and plastic rivets on a non-waterproof assembly is a design failure (or intentional ?)

It would not have cost more for IBM to use clips fixation and I will still have my almost impossible to find AZERTY model M on my desk.... 

What happened to the AZERTY board? Did the plastic rivets break? Was something spilled on it?

No, some water drops (windows opened, rainy and windy) went on it and I did not immediatly opened it to let it dry close to a heat source, so I guess the inside of the shell had humid and water condensed between the contact films (This main curved part is not at all waterproof) and the keyboard started to bug (sending ERTYGF when typing on T only, and many other similar issues). As some zones, like the numpas were working fine, I knew nothing was wrong with the electronics but with the inside of the curved sandwich. That's why I had to break rivets in order to access the films, and what I saw inside was not pretty at all : rust stains on films, wet zones, etc... so I cleaned films with alcohol and they were 100% fixed. The problem started when having to do the bolts mod (no choice).

[Aer Fixus]

and plastic rivets on a non-waterproof assembly is a design failure (or intentional ?)

It would not have cost more for IBM to use clips fixation and I will still have my almost impossible to find AZERTY model M on my desk.... 

What happened to the AZERTY board? Did the plastic rivets break? Was something spilled on it?

No, some water drops (windows opened, rainy and windy) went on it and I did not immediatly opened it to let it dry close to a heat source, so I guess the inside of the shell had humid and water condensed between the contact films (This main curved part is not at all waterproof) and the keyboard started to bug (sending ERTYGF when typing on T only, and many other similar issues). As some zones, like the numpas were working fine, I knew nothing was wrong with the electronics but with the inside of the curved sandwich. That's why I had to break rivets in order to access the films, and what I saw inside was not pretty at all : rust stains on films, wet zones, etc... so I cleaned films with alcohol and they were 100% fixed. The problem started when having to do the bolts mod (no choice).

Everything is replaceable by Unicomp or another keyboard. What makes your keyboard AZERTY is the controller and the label on the back that says the model number. If everything is somehow beyond repair, you could pull an ISO assembly from another board and put it in and if it plugs into the controller, it will type AZERTY*. Then you just need to put your AZERTY caps on. Alternatively, you can get a new barrel plate from Unicomp if you irreparably damaged it and the other parts are still salvagable.

The great thing about Model M keyboards is that no matter what you do to them, not matter how you damage them, they can always be repaired with replacement parts or other keyboards. If you want to repair the board, it is possible, no matter what has happened to it. Unless you fried the controller and ripped off the label that identifies it as an AZERTY, we can rebuild it. We have the parts.

*Edit: you could still replace it with an ISO assembly to make it functional. The statement I made about the controller changing the layout is wrong.

[E TwentyNine]

Everything is replaceable by Unicomp or another keyboard. What makes your keyboard AZERTY is the controller...

Nope.  For a model M, the controller sends the same code when you hit Q on a QWERTY as when you hit A on an AZERTY.

You can make one act like the other simply by telling the OS that you're using (in this instance) a French Keyboard.

Of course you'd need some other changes for changing from ANSI to ISO layout in that case, but the controller is not one of them.

[kilogeek]

and plastic rivets on a non-waterproof assembly is a design failure (or intentional ?)

It would not have cost more for IBM to use clips fixation and I will still have my almost impossible to find AZERTY model M on my desk.... 

What happened to the AZERTY board? Did the plastic rivets break? Was something spilled on it?

No, some water drops (windows opened, rainy and windy) went on it and I did not immediatly opened it to let it dry close to a heat source, so I guess the inside of the shell had humid and water condensed between the contact films (This main curved part is not at all waterproof) and the keyboard started to bug (sending ERTYGF when typing on T only, and many other similar issues). As some zones, like the numpas were working fine, I knew nothing was wrong with the electronics but with the inside of the curved sandwich. That's why I had to break rivets in order to access the films, and what I saw inside was not pretty at all : rust stains on films, wet zones, etc... so I cleaned films with alcohol and they were 100% fixed. The problem started when having to do the bolts mod (no choice).

Everything is replaceable by Unicomp or another keyboard. What makes your keyboard AZERTY is the controller and the label on the back that says the model number. If everything is somehow beyond repair, you could pull an ISO assembly from another board and put it in and if it plugs into the controller, it will type AZERTY. Then you just need to put your AZERTY caps on. Alternatively, you can get a new barrel plate from Unicomp if you irreparably damaged it and the other parts are still salvagable.

The great thing about Model M keyboards is that no matter what you do to them, not matter how you damage them, they can always be repaired with replacement parts or other keyboards. If you want to repair the board, it is possible, no matter what has happened to it. Unless you fried the controller and ripped off the label that identifies it as an AZERTY, we can rebuild it. We have the parts.

I would say it's the same with all keyboards... but some use only screws and clips...

[fohat.digs]

but some use only screws and clips...

IBM Model M/Fs have curved plates that allow the key plane to have an ergonomic non-flat surface without raising the legs of the keyboard.

In both cases, but much more so in the F, the inner surfaces need tension to pull them back into the inside curvature of the plate.

The F is actually built with tabs and a sliding force fit, but I usually add a couple of bolts down the center line when I am in there.

On the Model M, the original rivets, or replacement bolts, pull the internal assemblies together with some force to get the proper fit. I feel sure that it is this internal tension that makes the Model M/Fs feel so "alive" and springy when you type on them.

And, of course, that is what makes re-assembly outside of the factory such as tedious nightmare.

[Aer Fixus]

Nope.  For a model M, the controller sends the same code when you hit Q on a QWERTY as when you hit A on an AZERTY.

You can make one act like the other simply by telling the OS that you're using (in this instance) a French Keyboard.

Of course you'd need some other changes for changing from ANSI to ISO layout in that case, but the controller is not one of them.

So the different layout is actually in the membrane?

I would say it's the same with all keyboards... but some use only screws and clips...

But unlike other keyboards, the Model M is worth repairing. Especially if you have an emotional attachment (or even a monetary one in the case of a rare version).

[E TwentyNine]

So the different layout is actually in the membrane?

The membrane is the same.  Where the hammers (and keys) are placed is different (for a few positions).

[Aer Fixus]

So the different layout is actually in the membrane?

The membrane is the same.  Where the hammers (and keys) are placed is different (for a few positions).

I meant what differentiates his AZERTY keyboard from other ISO boards, not from ANSI boards. The controller sends AZERTY specific codes so he could swap the broken keyboard assembly with one from an ISO board, change the caps and he would have the fully functional AZERTY board without having to do a bolt mod.

[damorgue]

I meant what differentiates his AZERTY keyboard from other ISO boards, not from ANSI boards. The controller sends AZERTY specific codes...

No such thing as "AZERTY specific codes". They send the same scancodes and the operating system interprets them based on what language it is set to.

Edit: Other people have already written this twice it seems.

[Aer Fixus]

I meant what differentiates his AZERTY keyboard from other ISO boards, not from ANSI boards. The controller sends AZERTY specific codes...

No such thing as "AZERTY specific codes". They send the same scancodes and the operating system interprets them based on what language it is set to.

Edit: Other people have already written this twice it seems.

Nope.  For a model M, the controller sends the same code when you hit Q on a QWERTY as when you hit A on an AZERTY.

You can make one act like the other simply by telling the OS that you're using (in this instance) a French Keyboard.

Of course you'd need some other changes for changing from ANSI to ISO layout in that case, but the controller is not one of them.

I read this wrong the first two times I read it.

I also assumed that because my terminal ISO boards give different signals than my regular ANSI boards that different languages did similar things. Although that's probably because of the differences in Soarer's default configurations between scan code set 2 and 3 and my assumptions have been completely incorrect.

I stand corrected. Twice.

[kilogeek]

but some use only screws and clips...

IBM Model M/Fs have curved plates that allow the key plane to have an ergonomic non-flat surface without raising the legs of the keyboard.

In both cases, but much more so in the F, the inner surfaces need tension to pull them back into the inside curvature of the plate.

The F is actually built with tabs and a sliding force fit, but I usually add a couple of bolts down the center line when I am in there.

On the Model M, the original rivets, or replacement bolts, pull the internal assemblies together with some force to get the proper fit. I feel sure that it is this internal tension that makes the Model M/Fs feel so "alive" and springy when you type on them.

And, of course, that is what makes re-assembly outside of the factory such as tedious nightmare.

I know that, (polytechnics eng.) but then, ok, go for plastic rivets as long as you make the assembly water-proof, and, yes, it's technically possible.
I also still belive there are alternatives to thix fixing method, the tension you're talking about is really not that high.
I believe their design choice to be mainly due to production costs, and that's also why they did only used some parts of their BS patent. Read it carefully (if not yet done^^) you will see model M is very far from the patent, mainly for the contacts method used.

e.g. intel cpu coolers are clipsed on the mobo, no screws, and tension is high, higher than what we are talking about for the M

[fohat.digs]

I believe their design choice to be mainly due to production costs,

I agree. The Model M is an extreme exercise in cost-cutting from the vastly superior Model F.

But the Model F is even more vulnerable to infiltration from spilled liquid.

[kilogeek]

I believe their design choice to be mainly due to production costs,

I agree. The Model M is an extreme exercise in cost-cutting from the vastly superior Model F.

But the Model F is even more vulnerable to infiltration from spilled liquid.

Yes, this is something I never understood, it's so cheap to add silicon joins where needed and to design the shell with holes in the bottom part so water may poor quickly out of the shell instead of evaporating inside... That's the mod I'm gonna do on my Bull ALPS keyboard, waterproofing the metal plate-pcb part and some holes in the bottom part, so if you accidentally drop water on keyboard it will resist.

[berserkfan]

I tried to get the buyer to fix the problem himself, but he just wants to send it back.  Probably buyer's remorse is a big part of that.  Not let's hope he doesn't give me negative feedback.

Sorry to hear that. This is not the first spacebar that got dislodged during shipping, except on a Model M it's so easy to fix and it's disgusting he didn't want to fix it and would rather pay return shipping.