Author Topic: SmartScope kickstart oscilloscope project (& waveform generator/logic analyzer)  (Read 2833 times)

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Offline jacobolus

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https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/751733865/smartscope-reinventing-the-oscilloscope

Looks pretty neat. Could be useful for those folks working on stuff like capacitive sensing chips, etc.

(Might not keep up with real bench oscilloscopes, etc. But it’s pretty small, anyhow. :)
« Last Edit: Sun, 09 February 2014, 05:53:53 by jacobolus »

Offline mkawa

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there are a literal ****ton of USB scopes and logic analyzers and a frequency generator is aka a sound card.

the problem with these is the same as with any other any measurement device that you're trying to run in a small space under USB power: noise. the best SNR you can get using USB as a pseudo real-time medium (remember, USB is actually serial and packetized), is not all that great.

also, moving to great finds, because we aren't making this. these other guys are.

i highly suggest dangerousprototypes bus pirate, bus blaster and open logic analyzer project instead of these fellows, since they don't seem to understand the fundamental computational limitations of their client platforms. DP is at least realistic about their goals (the cheapest workable X, Y and Z)

to all the brilliant friends who have left us, and all the students who climb on their shoulders.

Offline Soarer

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I dunno, I think it might fill a niche between those and a 'proper' MSO. USB 'scopes aren't necessarily bad, but I'm sure it does take some effort to clean up the power line, and I can't see anything like that going on there...? Anyway, all those you mention are purely digital, so not quite a fair comparison (useful as they are).

Kinda sceptical about their claims really. They have selectively filtered the opposition when the say the software is always ignored - PicoScope has good software, it's one of their main selling points! And claiming 45MHz with 100MS/s is stretching usefulness more than a tad, unless you only want to look at (reconstructed) sine waves. Good for seeing slew rate on a lower frequency though. Not sure exactly what "200 waveforms/second data updates" means exactly.

On the plus side, it's open, and probably the cheapest way to get a reasonably quick MSO.

Offline mkawa

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USB analog scopes do exist, but they have insane noise floors. they are also aka sound cards.

imo the analog side is useless. the guys who do analog scopes have much better luck with the shielded and very well thought out m-audio products. the digital end is fairly simple, but that's why there are so many on the market already.

the other thing is that they are targeting clients that have very limited even digital accuracy. even if the current generation of arm socs in shipping devices had NEON cores, NEON leaves quite a bit to be desired; they sacrificed quite a bit to target lower power usage, and in floating point matrix ops that means precision lossyness. even if you had the most insane (5v!) logic-level regulation in your little USB can and you spent real money on a discrete DAC (that of course, has to run on 5v like 400ma!!) by the time you get to your display device and on the screen, you've lost any precision you worked so hard to achieve.

the hackable rigol DPOs and MSOs are a much better deal, frankly. they're very reasonably priced, as you only have to buy the lowest model in each tier and you can soft-unlock it to have all the higher-end features.

in fact, even my lowest-of-the-low-end tek DPO is unlockable. the protocol analyzer module is literally just a SIM card with 3 different 2 byte registers on it. a couple of sim connectors and some 0.5USD EEPROMs and ta-da!

to all the brilliant friends who have left us, and all the students who climb on their shoulders.

Offline Soarer

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AKA sound cards, lol, pricey sound cards then!

Noise floor on my (much cheaper) USB Picoscope is about 1 bit, same as any other decent DSO, USB or not.

The cheap Rigols have, what, 320x240 screen resolution? It's a great 'scope, I'm sure, but I'd bet it has less CPU power than most phones.

You're welcome to your opinions, of course, but I'd rather hear "I tried X product, but it failed me because of Y" :)

Offline mkawa

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real soundcards are ridiculously expensive. look up prices on real studio mixers.

everyone's solving the same problem: as much data out of some number of signals as possible. the design parameters and tradeoffs are largely limited by physics. the serious picos are larger than the logic board on my little tek, frankly, and that's without any physical interface.

this is an interesting project, but as usual with successful kickstarters, i ruffle at the marketing. a hammond project box, some EMI caging and the dangerousprototypes boards are cheaper for the same functionality, precision, etc. so this is pretty far from a game changer. it's just another design point in the space. it competes with the saleae line, the picos you pointed out, and a whole bunch of other designs i'm not even aware of.

another thing that bothers me, however, is that it is a total abuse of the idea of open-source. if the development is open source, why is there no source? they say they have been developing for a year, but there's no software, no hardware, absolutely nothing is currently open. it looks like they're setting themselves up as a tightly integrated company; their project design lead runs the line at their contract manufacturer (an ODM! imagine that!), marketing is handled by the lab-nation brand, and people who contribute monetarily to this currently closed project below the price of a single unit literally get nothing but a high-five.

personally i'd rather go for the saleae or pico.

to all the brilliant friends who have left us, and all the students who climb on their shoulders.

Offline Soarer

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I guess there are plenty of cheap-ass Chinese USB scopes around, and if those are what they're comparing against then their claims may be valid. Setting their sights a bit low on the quality to beat perhaps, but roughly the same price bracket.

I can't find a dangerous prototypes DSO or MSO - am I missing something?


Offline mkawa

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my understanding is that gadgeteer and DP both collaborate with seeed on their truly open-source DSO: http://www.seeedstudio.com/wiki/index.php?title=DSO_Quad

and the truly open source logic analyzers and other structured data interpreters that come out of DP (which are driven by SUMP at the front-end).

everything is actually open source on these projects, and every stage of development can be built up as a manufactured unit or however else you want to do it.

libsigrok also exists for low-speed sampling of waveforms from multimeter and multimeter-like devices. the point is that this is basically another cheap chinese usb scope and there are a ton out there that are already big time open source projects with many contributors and multiple manufacturers (because, again, they're actually open source). you don't have to buy a "hacker pack" to hack on the SUMP logic sniffer because the standard implementation is hacked onto a spartan 3 eval board (and will load fine on the spart6 equivalent as well..).

finally, there are tons of programs that will actually build up an MSO interface from your sound card. high channel count cards like the m-audio audiophile 2496 are actually pretty usable, and no one needed to spend 5$ for a high five to get that going.

to all the brilliant friends who have left us, and all the students who climb on their shoulders.

Offline Soarer

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Oh yeah, the DSO quad. So cute, I almost want one. Can't think when I'd use it though - too fiddly compared to USB 'scope + laptop. Maybe one day it will work over USB as well, I don't know, there's an awful lot still on the 'ideas' list.

Sound card just doesn't cut it for a lot of purposes - not enough bandwidth.

I've got the logic sniffer, and the SUMP fork is certainly usable and has some nice features. It's not up to the Pico software for basic usability though. Wish I had time to contribute towards SUMP, and I'd really like to try some ideas out on the FPGA side, but... http://xkcd.com/1319/

Offline jacobolus

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Well I’m glad I put the link here, if only for the discussion. Thanks you two! :)

Mkawa, if you were going to try to make an oscilloscope for say <$250, what would you do differently than these guys?

Offline mkawa

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i think soarer nailed it.

http://xkcd.com/1319/

anyway, what i would do is go buy a tek or agilent like i did for real money but get a real scope out of it. hell, i'm a measurement nerd and even i know how dangerous it is to run off and try to build a better mousetrap^H^^H^H^H measurement device.

yes, it's possible to build increasingly better 'scope-less' scopes these days, but the same guys who have been building scopes for the last 30 years are still better at building modern scopes than i am. i would need one of their nist traceable scopes to build my own scope. that's how backward an idea it is.

however, if you want to make money, it's a nice product. make it cheaper than the competition, accelerate development with low-end CPLDs and high end ADCs; you never even have to tape out your own chip for anything. either you discover that you're only using the HPA core and other hard IP on the chip or you make your design as small as is synthesizably possible and then downsize your CPLD until it just fits.

i don't particularly have a problem with this. when i was a kid; hell, when i was an undergrad, the idea of having a scope outside the lab was ludicrous. in the early days, we really did have sound cards do scope duty (well, they were audio circuits sooo). and it isn't just scopes either. there's a whole line of autoconfig work with netFPGAs (and because of that work, we now talk about FPGAs in terms of how many line-speed transceivers they can fit..). it's pretty cool, tbh, i just dislike flashy kickstarter projects that throw buzzwords around but are actually just relatively asinine product startups that couldn't get funding on sand hill.

anyway, i spent more than 250 on my multimeter so i don't think i'd bother with a 250$ scope. if i needed the mobility of a small usb scope, i'd go with a pico like soarer did.

to all the brilliant friends who have left us, and all the students who climb on their shoulders.