Laptops with pointer sticks, and keyboards that Don't Suck (tm)

[bitbang3r]

It's that time again... and god, have I been dreading it. The hunt for a new laptop. The need for speed, tempered by the knowledge that just about every laptop in existence today has a worse keyboard than one that would have been considered "mediocre" just a few years ago. And an absolute requirement that it have a pointer stick, just to make life interesting ;-)

Unsurprisingly, it looks like I basically have three choices: Thinkpads, Elitebooks, and Dell Precisions (maybe some Latitudes).

For the moment, I'm writing off Dell, just because I had a D600 about 5 years ago, and it literally fell apart. The bluetooth module was flaky from day one (stupid design that couldn't keep it firmly seated, so it kept working its way loose), the USB ports were under-powered, the CPU fan died, the spacebar came unhinged, and my fingertips were red and burnt after using it all day. I'm not hellbent on avoiding them if they've improved... but I seriously doubt whether they've gotten any better.

That leaves Thinkpads and Elitebooks.

I played with an E430 at CompUSA, and it left me feeling sad. The tactile response and stroke length was good, but the pitch was just a little too tight. My pinky was left hovering over the crack between the ";:" and ('") keys. I managed to pull off 95wpm, but it just didn't feel comfortable. My fingers felt cramped, and I wasn't happy. And the keycaps felt slippery.

Are the rest of Lenovo's new chiclet keyboards the same? Or do their 15" models have slightly wider pitch? Do their higher-end models maybe have keys made from that awesome velvety, grippy plastic (whose use, IMHO, should be legally mandated in any context involving contact between a hand and something intended to be gripped or manipulated) ;-)

Likewise, how does the keyboard on HP's EliteBook families (both the 8000w family, and the 800 non-w family) compare? I'm still trying to find some way to see them in person.

From what I've read, recent EliteBook 8000w family members (8x60 and 8x70) have the same pitch as a Thinkpad T61 (19.05mm center to center), and slightly longer strokes (2.5mm for the EliteBook, 2.0mm for the T61). However, it looks like Lenovo's keyboards still win in the sculpted-keycap department. It might just be bad photos, but the EliteBook's keycaps seem to be flatter than the Lenovo's new keycaps.

I remember reading somewhere yesterday that the keyboards HP bundles with some of its desktop PCs are built from the same design (sans pointer stick) as the 8x60w/8x70w family's keyboards... but I couldn't find any specific model information to go out hunting for one to try typing on. I think it said it was one or more of their All-in-One computers.

I DID get to try typing on a ProBook 4540s, and wasn't impressed at all. The pitch was too tight (like the E430), the stroke felt absurdly short, the tactile snap was weak, and the keycaps were basically flat, so my fingers felt like they didn't really know WHERE they were supposed to go. It's purely a hunch at this point, but I suspect that the 800 series probably has keyboards that are like the Probook 4050s keyboards, but with the addition of pointer sticks. However, I'd be delighted if I were wrong, because the 800 series is ENORMOUSLY more affordable than the 8x70w family.

In the past, I just automatically went with Thinkpads, because I knew they were good. And if they weren't, there were two other compatible keyboards from Alps, NMB, and Chicony I could swap in until I found the one that was EXACTLY right (and... in fact... I DID end up buying one of each, just to reassure myself that the one that ended up getting used was truly the one I liked the best).  But now that Lenovo screwed up their keyboards (and continued by screwing up the Trackpoint buttons in the 440/540 models for next year), I'm giving the alternatives a hard look.

Am I overlooking any laptops with pointer sticks and good keyboards? I'd REALLY love to hear your opinions of HP's keyboards vs Lenovo's (and Dell's, assuming they no longer flex the way the D600's did). At this point, my only hard requirements are that it HAS to have a pointer stick, at least slightly-sculpted keys, deep tactile strokes, and ideally should have the same key pitch as a full-sized desktop PC keyboard, like the Model M13. I don't care about weight, thickness, or battery life... my travel is almost exclusively by car, and I'm content to be able to lug it to the car and throw it in the trunk. I do, however, care about having a searingly-bright LED-backlit screen that's at least 1600x900... preferably 1920x1080. I had a MSI netbook at one point with a stunningly bright & beautiful display, and my T61's more conventional CFL-illuminated 1600x900 panel could hardly help being a major disappointment after that.

Anyway, we all know that keyboard opinions are 100% subjective, so the more detail you can give about the REASON why you liked (or hated) a particular keyboard, the better.

Oh, and of course... if anybody knows of a laptop -- real, rumored, or otherwise -- with Cherry Green keyswitches (aw, hell... maybe even Blues. Beggars can't be choosers...), by all means please mention it :-)

[bitbang3r]

Update: maybe I was a bit hasty condemning Dell and writing them off. Or maybe not. Does anybody happen to know whether you can stick a real red Trackpoint cap (particularly, the one that looks kind of like an upside-down plunger with red nubs on the top) onto a Dell pointer stick and neutralize their "stick sits too low" problem? From what I vaguely remember, I did it with my old D600, it worked, and made it a lot nicer to use... but the cap left a mark on the screen. Not a big one, but enough to notice after a few weeks.

(update)

Well, talk about a 180-degree shift. Thanks partly to some stackable discounts that dropped the price down to a point that was just too good to pass up, I ended up getting a Precision m4800. The i7-4800MQ in the m4800 was just too tempting to settle for a used EliteBook with warmed-over i5 (a dualcore i7) or last-gen i7.

The keyboard on it doesn't suck, though I'll admit that it doesn't particularly turn me on. It's not *bad*, and the tactile feel is decent, but it feels like the keycap-sculpting isn't quite deep enough, and the valleys between the keycap edges aren't as wide & deep as I'd really like them to be. I feel like I'm constantly "hunting" for the enter key with my pinky... not exactly making typos, but feeling like I'm *going* to at any moment. And the keycaps themselves are slightly-roughed up hard plastic... I'd be happier if they were velvety soft-touch grippy plastic.

The pointer stick's bundled cap utterly and completely sucked. It was just too shallow and low for confident comfort. HOWEVER, a $2 "cat's tongue" replacement cap from someone on eBay solved that problem completely.

The pointer stick buttons... ugh. WTF were they thinking. They're angled, with the middle one angled in the opposite direction... but the part you're supposed to press is the LOWER part. They look nice, but IMHO they're an ergonomic failure. Once again, they aren't terrible, but they'd be better if they just copied the button layout from a Trackpoint IV. Or just made them from my favorite grippy soft-touch plastic, put cherry green switches under them, and rotated the tops 180 degrees, so you pressed the HIGH end instead of the LOW end.

The rest of the laptop is quite nice. The 1920x1080 FHD display is retina-searingly bright, and makes my two 24" Acer monitors look bad by comparison. The metal case adds weight, but helps with cooling.

[drreid1958]

hope I'm in time to be of help....there is an article on this topic at http://blog.laptopmag.com/looking-for-nub-best-and-worst-notebook-pointing-sticks that you might be interested in.  As a highly proficient touch typist and buyer of numerous laptops, I have long found that the ThinkPad keyboards are the absolute best.  I share a preference for the point stick, particularly when a separate, quality mouse is unavailable or inconvenient.  The problem however with ThinkPads is that since Lenovo took over the manufacture of them from IBM, quality control has suffered and Lenovo doesn't do a great job of standing behind the warranty.  I have personally had multiple difficulties with them and so I will not buy from them anymore.  That leaves us with HP, Toshiba, and Dell.  All of them have good quality control and do a good job of honoring their warranties.  Toshiba, the originator of the laptop and of the point stick, is the next best option in keyboards after the ThinkPad, so that is my choice and recommendation to you.

[MJS]

Thanks for the post. I can so relate to this. I, too, ‘ended up’ with M4800 just because there is so little choice these days if one wants to avoid the chiclet hell yet get a powerful computer with a great display.

Had dreaded the search for a new machine and been postponing it for so long as possible. (Glossy‑displays madness plaguing more affordable setups at one time was another of factors; and one still has to give in to the ubiquitous 16:9 screen ratio.)

Indeed, I failed to get a keyboard able to match the ‘classic’ one on my antique and hopelessly underpowered laptop of the past. (Which did cost more back then than the bargain M4800 setup with the i7-4800MQ and FHD and the SSHD costs today, I have to admit; and therein may lie the cause of the misery.)