Author Topic: Salutations and a Series of Questions  (Read 4005 times)

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Offline Chao

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  • Posts: 68
Salutations and a Series of Questions
« on: Fri, 04 December 2009, 07:18:59 »
- I - Salutations

About a week ago, I was inspired to attempt a project which is far beyond my experience or capacity. Utilizing Google-Fu, I embarked upon a journey of gathering the necessary understanding... or perhaps to determine why this should not be attempted.

A pattern soon emerged wherein every third page or so was either on geekhack or referenced a thread on geekhack. I have since spent a good portion of the week reading as much of this forum as possible, so as not to pose a redundant question or appear as an under-informed novice (despite the reality that I am, in fact, an under-informed novice). I am very appreciative of the resources available on this site and if nothing else have learned a great deal from the experience so far.

Thus while I am not certain that this is precisely the proper forum or section for this sort of post, I am unaware of an equally knowledgeable website or forum for which this would be more suited. My apologies in advance if I am in err: It is a rather elaborate attempt at achieving a specific aesthetic found in a rather gimmicky keyboard, without compromising the quality experience provided by mechanical switches.


- II - A Disclaimer

I apologize for the length of my post, but I felt that a sparse post would lead to a thread where, coming off as a typical forum newcomer, I would be informed of things I either already know or have seen on this forum already (I already have about twenty threads bookmarked for an assortment of reasons).

A second disclaimer and request: Please tear my idea to shreds.
Because of my longwinded typing style, I have a tendency to sound like I know what I'm talking about. I don't. Additionally, I would appreciate it if criticism included reasoning that I can learn from.


- III - My Story

For most of my childhood and adolescence, my keyboard was a handmedown relic. In 2006, my aggressive adolescent typing style, almost a martial art in the way I struck the keys, had damaged the Spacebar beyond all functionality. I jumped at the opportunity to get something new and full of shiny LEDs.

I immediately noticed something was amiss in my new keyboard. Mentioning this to a friend, he informed me the older was a "mechanical" keyboard versus the "membrane" one which I now possessed, and what precisely that entailed. While I was disappointed I had spent $35 on the keyboard and decided to make the money count. After a while, my annoyance was replaced by complacency (and an inhibited tying speed).

Fast forward to today. I am currently traveling in Japan and am only equipped with a tiny old laptop, but my decidedly inglorious keyboard back home has finally given up the ghost and I plan on replacing it upon my return armed with the lessons of the past. My initial debate was between two keyboards that, as I gather, no one on this forum would dare approve of.

[[ I do not plan on purchasing either of these. They were a starting point and are included as part of the story. ]]
Das Keyboard Ultimate: A blatantly commercialized shot at attracting the performance crowd.
Luxeed Dynamic LED: The definition of form over function. Probably goes against everything thinkgeek believes.

As I said, I spent a week reading every thread I could on this forum and am well aware of the inadequacies of Das Keyboard.
But what's with the glaringly out-of-place Luxeed? Frankly, I stumbled upon it by accident and even though my eyes were rather offended, for some reason I decided to look at the specs, which are more focused on the flashy "features" of color-programmable LEDs. What caught my eye was the "Spark" feature, where keys are dark but light up when pressed. However, some video evidence reveals that this feature is implemented rather poorly. Simultaneous keypresses do not "Spark" and there is a noticeable delay, I assume from some driver interaction.

But by the time I discovered this disappointing video, I had become enamored with the idea of a keyboard that lights upon keypress.


- IV - My Quest

Alas I could not simply purchase my dreams. However, I was struck by a stray thought: Why not make such a keyboard and base it upon a quality mechanical keyboard? In this I could satisfy not only my momentary aesthetic obsession but also my longstanding desire to return to a mechanical keyswitch environment!

Little did I know I would waste a week just reading about keyboards, circuits and LEDs. I really don't know half as much as I need to in order to tackle this.


- V - The Initial Idea

My initial idea was to fit an LED underneath each key which lights when the key is pressed. Sounds simple enough. It has evolved over the past week of reading, and I will try and keep the specifics as concise as possible. The initial problems I hit were understanding the terminology and process of replacing keys, followed by concerns about the actual electronics involved.

What the hell is a keycap anyway?
I first Googled "clear keys" and found out that I have no idea how to ask for what I want. I want replacement keys which are, ideally a frosted/translucent clear. Do I want replacement keys, or do I want so-called "keycaps"? Frankly, it seems that terms are inconsistently used across the internet. Some places label replacement keys as "keycaps" whereas what some places call "keycaps" are hard-plastic "relegendable" key-covers. From what I gather the latter is the more accepted usage of the term "keycaps" and what I actually want are replacement keys? Maybe?

Terminology aside, the next question was obvious:
How the hell do I know whether the keys (keycaps?) I buy will fit the keyboard I use? This caused me the most trouble, especially because all of the providers of replacement keys are for industrial machinery rather than desktop keyboards. However, as I have settled on a Filco keyboard (more on that later), this thread has seemingly solved the problem for me. If for some reason the information in that thread is not accurate, it is of immediate concern to me. If it is all legit, then Chloe has my eternal gratitude for putting to rest my first major hardware concern.


- VI - Concerns and Questions

First off:
Is this a fool's errand? From all the pictures here, the Cherry keyswitches look like they're fairly chunky. Is it possible to even fit an LED underneath a key? Should it be shoved up into the key itself and move with it or be rooted in place? It's obviously done somehow, but is this achievable using household tools?

Assuming that it is possible, my remaining concerns are threefold:

  • Power
    Where could it or should it come from? Is is feasible to utilize USB power for something like this, and is that something that would actually be safe to do? Is futzing with the USB power a worthwhile venture or would it be easier to use a battery? My knowledge is limited but I'm willing to learn pretty much anything. Another concern is losing equipment if I screw up.
  • Connectivity.
    What would be a reliable manner to have the LEDs receive power when a key is depressed? Am I correct in thinking that in a mechanical board it is not feasible to work with the already-existing functionality/keyswitch in some way? I know so little about electronics that I don't know what type of "switch" I might utilize to, presumably, achieve contact of "something" to "something else" and form a circuit thus turning on the LED.
  • More on keys that fit
    See below in "The Current Plan" involving getting this to resemble what I envision.
- VII - The Current Plan and Considerations

If all of the technical details are surmountable, I plan on going at this using a Filco Majestouch "Otaku" with Cherry Brown switches. The justifications:
  • Brown: From what I have read on this forum, I gather these make less noise than the Blue switches. No klacka-klacking to bother those I live with.
  • No NKRO: Frankly, six keys is enough for me. I definitely run into issues with two or three, but I can't imagine that six plus modifiers will be an issue.
  • User Majestouch: Having a such a community-involved vendor and contact point is something I highly respect, even if he might not approve of me wanting to go Dr. Frankenstein on his products.
  • Replacement Key Availability: My original dream of translucent/frosted clear keys would have allowed me to use a combination of LED colors. Having yet to run across something like that, I'm looking at TIPRO Single Replacement Keys because the site claims "beige is opaque, all other colors are translucent", with my interest being in the translucent.
    I'm fine with this. Instead of a gaudy cacophony of colors, I can use translucent blue keys and simply light them with Blue and White LEDs for slightly differing, but complimentary effects.
  • Blank Keys: In a perfect world I could order a translucent, replacement spacebar for a reasonable price. I am assuming that from a practical standpoint I will only be replacing the 72 1x1 keys, possibly omitting the F and J to maintain the presence of nubs. As these replacement keys will be blank, it would be awkward to have the remaining regular black keys have text on them.
My final notable concern is key shape. I am curious about the shape of the original keys on the Filco board and whether or not it is sufficient to merely be compatible with the Cherry Brown keyswitch, or if there would be an issue with the key's shape and being too large or small for the board. On a similar note is the replacement keys being flat while the remaining keys I don't replace are either raised or scooped... if that makes any sense?


- VIII - Conclusion

If you have read my entire post, or even most of it, you have my thanks just for taking your time out to listen to my situation and idea. I understand that this forum and section are more interested in the efficiency and utility of individual keyboards. Thus if my questions are answered and the consensus gives a green light on the possibility of modding a mechanical keyboard in such a way, I will take it the next step of wiring, power and LEDs to more appropriate enthusiast forums, wherever they might be.

And lastly, to repeat, I know there are multiple problems with my idea. Please tear it apart. I would like to learn.
« Last Edit: Fri, 04 December 2009, 11:10:32 by Chao »
» Filco Majestouch FKBN87M/EB
» Cherry G80-3600LYCEU

Offline leos

  • Posts: 119
Salutations. My story and a query.
« Reply #1 on: Fri, 04 December 2009, 08:43:23 »
long thread!!!

I asume you wanna/will/or try to mod a filco in the future

IDEA
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
maybe if you use plexiglas (0,5mm) unter the keys you can trasport the light from the leds unter all keys.
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
HHKB 2 Pro Black in use :typing:

Offline rdjack21

  • Posts: 896
Salutations. My story and a query.
« Reply #2 on: Fri, 04 December 2009, 09:03:36 »
One quick suggestion while you are in Japan and have access to Japanese computer shops go to one and type on some of the keyboards they have. In particular look for Filco's and Realforce boards. If for no other reason than to see how they feel to you before you start on your project. Japan is one of the few places where you can finds these boards in a retail store.

EDIT: Forgot to add try to get your hands on a HHKB Pro as well.
Keyboards
Topre Capacitive: Realforce 87U, Realforce 86U, HHKB Pro 2, Topre MD01B0, Topre HE0100, Sun Short Type, OEM NEO CS (x2), NISSHO Electronics KB106DE
Buckling Spring: IBM Model M Space Saver (1291472), Unicomp Customizer x 2
Cherry Brown: Filco FKBN87M/EB, Compaq MX11800
Black Alps: ABS M1
Not so great boards Rare Spring over dome OKI, Sun rack keyboard

Trackballs - Trackman Wheel (3), Trackman marble (2)
Keyboards I still want to get - Happy Hacking Keyboard Pro 2 the White version, Realforce 23U number pad in black and maybe white, μTRON ergo board with Topre switches.
Previously owned - [size=0]SiiG MiniTouch (White Alps), Scorpius M10 (Blue Cherry), IBM Model M13[/size]

Offline Chao

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 68
Salutations. My story and a query.
« Reply #3 on: Fri, 04 December 2009, 10:12:46 »
Thanks for the quick replies despite my massive wall-of-text post.

Quote from: rdjack21;138677
One quick suggestion while you are in Japan and have access to Japanese computer shops go to one and type on some of the keyboards they have. In particular look for Filco's and Realforce boards. If for no other reason than to see how they feel to you before you start on your project. Japan is one of the few places where you can finds these boards in a retail store.

EDIT: Forgot to add try to get your hands on a HHKB Pro as well.
I'll definitely check that out. I'd love to give several of these a real comparison. As for HHKB, I don't understand what makes them particularly unique as compared to all the other brands I have read about here.


Quote from: ripster;138680
I haven't read the whole thing but I think you want to buy a blank key set from Deck.  Then get some LEDs.
I took a look at Deck before but wasn't sure if the "blank keycaps" were actual blank replacement keys or were just caps that block out the current lettering. It's kind of ambiguous from the picture as well. Once I started seeing "keycaps" used in the sense of a hard, plastic key-cover I just assumed that's what was over at deck.

I'm currently going through their forum to try and figure out if they're replacement keys or key...cover...caps... I really don't know what to call them but I hope I'm making sense here.
» Filco Majestouch FKBN87M/EB
» Cherry G80-3600LYCEU

Offline PRISONER 24601

  • Posts: 383
Salutations. My story and a query.
« Reply #4 on: Fri, 04 December 2009, 10:53:39 »
Greetings. It may be pertinent to reduce the amount of unnecessary modifiers in your writing. They can be misconstrued as diminutive to the contention that you're trying to make. "Wordiness" as it is known, does not increase the quality of quality of posts, but rather leads to the inclusion of false dichotomy, unintentionally making your writing illegible.

Oh, and welcome to geekhack!
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better.
G80-3000LSCRC-2 (MX), "Ricercar" G86-6241OEUAGSA (MX), MX11800 (MX), AEKII (ALPS), AEK (ALPS) Apple Keyboard A9M0330 (ALPS), IBM Model F XT (Bucking Spring), IBM Space Saver 1391472 (Bucking Spring).

Offline 1839cc

  • Posts: 243
Salutations. My story and a query.
« Reply #5 on: Fri, 04 December 2009, 11:17:47 »
Quote from: ripster;138680
I haven't read the whole thing but I think you want to buy a blank key set from Deck.  Then get some LEDs.
Or even start with a Deck keyboard. LEDs already being in place and all.
i have seen unix admins with john deere trucker hats, and even seen a man in a nascar shirt correct a passerby's klingon.


Offline Chao

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 68
Salutations. My story and a query.
« Reply #6 on: Fri, 04 December 2009, 11:19:26 »
Quote from: PRISONER 24601;138731
Greetings. It may be pertinent to reduce the amount of unnecessary modifiers in your writing. They can be misconstrued as diminutive to the contention that you're trying to make. "Wordiness" as it is known, does not increase the quality of quality of posts, but rather leads to the inclusion of false dichotomy, unintentionally making your writing illegible.
Sorry about that. I was starting a caffeine high when I wrote this and it'd been building up all week. Looking back at it, that was pretty bad. I've edited my post and removed useless anecdotes so it's less tiring for future readers.

Thanks! I actually just determined that from the Deck forum as well.

Quote from: ripster;138739
They are standard keys with a translucent square that should beusable at least on the Alpha characters on any Cherry keyboard.
Wonderful! That's been one huge concern: Even if the keyswitch fits, whether or not the key would actually fit well. One question this raises, though, is the "key shape" or "key profile" question. I can't find the pictures at the moment but several threads around here have a picture of various keys from the side showing their height, angle and "scoop".


Quote from: ripster;138739
Read this mod to give you an idea of the work involved.  Not trivial.
I told myself going into this that even if it were hell-in-a-handbag I'd press on and learn whatever it took. That seems a bit in excess of my aim but certainly has some of the same concepts. My goal is a bit simpler and shouldn't require any software interaction.


Quote from: 1839cc;138745
Or even start with a Deck keyboard. LEDs already being in place and all.
I was thinking about that, especially since then all of the keycaps are guaranteed to fit. It would also save me a substantial amount of work in getting the LEDs to run off USB power and would allow me to focus on the issue of how to get the keys to activate on press. The only major difference between the board I was planning on using and a Deck is the use of Cherry Clear versus Cherry Brown. Well, that and price but that's made up for in LEDs. I'm still getting used to all of the terminology here but from what I can tell those two are very close to each other?

I hardly see Clear mentioned at all. It's always Black, Blue and Brown.
« Last Edit: Fri, 04 December 2009, 11:35:29 by Chao »
» Filco Majestouch FKBN87M/EB
» Cherry G80-3600LYCEU

Offline 1839cc

  • Posts: 243
Salutations. My story and a query.
« Reply #7 on: Fri, 04 December 2009, 11:26:42 »
Look at force diagrams in the keyswitch wiki. I want clears myself but can't quite afford them ATM.

Ahh ripster beat me to it....
i have seen unix admins with john deere trucker hats, and even seen a man in a nascar shirt correct a passerby's klingon.


Offline Chao

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 68
Salutations. My story and a query.
« Reply #8 on: Fri, 04 December 2009, 11:32:30 »
Yeah I'm going through all the Wiki pages I bookmarked again. I just hit the one with the breakdown of Cherry switches and it seems that aside from requiring more force, Clear and Brown are identical. The Cherry website doesn't mention the Brown, only Clear, at least not the page I'm looking at.

Edit: Just found the key size list again in All About Keys. Perfect.
» Filco Majestouch FKBN87M/EB
» Cherry G80-3600LYCEU

Offline Rajagra

  • Posts: 1930
Salutations. My story and a query.
« Reply #9 on: Fri, 04 December 2009, 11:35:07 »
It's worth noting that Cherry MX switches have an opening designed to accept either a diode (to achieve n-key rollover) or a LED (for light):


It seems to me you might be able to achieve both things at once. Fit an LED and wire it in series with the switch. When you press the key it will light!

You'd have to test this. The voltage drop across the LED might be much larger than a signal diode would have, that might prevent keypresses from registering. Also you'd need more current to get the LEDs really bright. If you added buffers to both the inputs and outputs (rows and columns) that would fix everything.

Quote from: PRISONER 24601;138731
Greetings. It may be pertinent to reduce the amount of unnecessary modifiers in your writing. They can be misconstrued as diminutive to the contention that you're trying to make. "Wordiness" as it is known, does not increase the quality of quality of posts, but rather leads to the inclusion of false dichotomy, unintentionally making your writing illegible.

God darnit Mr. 24601, you use your tongue prettier than a twenty dollar ****!:laugh:
« Last Edit: Fri, 04 December 2009, 12:00:38 by Rajagra »

Offline itlnstln

  • Posts: 7048
Salutations. My story and a query.
« Reply #10 on: Fri, 04 December 2009, 11:35:26 »
The clear switches have a different force curve, too.  They're not quite exactly like the browns.
 
That product page is from the US site.  The German site is much better.


Offline Chao

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 68
Salutations. My story and a query.
« Reply #11 on: Fri, 04 December 2009, 11:48:44 »
Quote from: Rajagra;138757
It's worth noting that Cherry MX switches have an opening designed to accept either a diode (to achieve n-key rollover) or a LED (for light):


It seems to me you might be able to achieve both things at once. Fit an LED and wire it in series with the switch. When you press the key it will light!




Did not know that. This solves another major concern: Whether or not there is room for the LEDs.

Quote from: Rajagra;138757
You'd have to test this. The voltage drop across the LED might be much larger than a signal diode would have, that might prevent keypresses from registering. Also you'd need more current to get the LEDs really bright. If you added buffers to both the inputs and outputs (rows and columns) that would fix everything.

Aha. I was waiting for the point at which I'd have to learn some thing new. I understand and pretty much expected the first half of this paragraph... voltage and current issues? Got it. Signal diode? Check. But what exactly would "adding a buffer" entail?
» Filco Majestouch FKBN87M/EB
» Cherry G80-3600LYCEU

Offline 1839cc

  • Posts: 243
Salutations. My story and a query.
« Reply #12 on: Fri, 04 December 2009, 11:49:42 »
I've been thinking for a while about getting a Deck and swapping clears for browns and reselling it. Maybe there is some interest for this? If so I will start a new thread.

/threadjack
i have seen unix admins with john deere trucker hats, and even seen a man in a nascar shirt correct a passerby's klingon.


Offline Chao

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 68
Salutations. My story and a query.
« Reply #13 on: Fri, 04 December 2009, 12:01:17 »
Quote from: itlnstln;138758
The clear switches have a different force curve, too.  They're not quite exactly like the browns.
Hmm... I can see that in the diagram from the site you linked, but given I'm still new to this whole world, I can't say I have a particular preference so for my purposes I think it might be a little immaterial.

I can all but assume that the buffer referenced is a buffer amplifier and please pardon my inability to identify that sooner. Using one means I need a source for the extra current, correct? Presumably the Filco Majestouch boards aren't really using most of their USB power so would that be sufficient? Or would that be too much, for that matter?
« Last Edit: Fri, 04 December 2009, 12:03:21 by Chao »
» Filco Majestouch FKBN87M/EB
» Cherry G80-3600LYCEU

Offline Rajagra

  • Posts: 1930
Salutations. My story and a query.
« Reply #14 on: Fri, 04 December 2009, 12:06:28 »
Quote from: Chao;138765
what exactly would "adding a buffer" entail?

A circuit that takes a signal that is only capable of delivering a low current, and outputs the same signal but capable of sending much more current. Essentially, an amplifier. It could be as simple a a single transistor, or there are a variety of logic chips designed for the purpose.

Offline Chao

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 68
Salutations. My story and a query.
« Reply #15 on: Fri, 04 December 2009, 12:26:54 »
Thanks so much for all of this information. Everyone.
From what I can tell, this is absolutely a doable project, and the design of the Cherry MX switch removes my concerns about the physical constraints of shoving an LED under a key. The blank key set from Déck is pretty much exactly what I'm looking for, though I don't think I'll go with the Deck board itself. It seems more like I should build up towards LED functionality rather than work backwards from something that is already there.

Now I need to learn a lot more about circuitry than the basics of resistors and capacitors. Particularly, the whole "buffer amplifier" thing is blowing my mind, in that it simply adds more current or voltage which was not there before. It has to do with impedance, I gather, but that's a similarly foreign concept. While I'm out looking for a resource to learn about circuits and try to understand buffer amplifiers, is there anything else you would recommend an understanding of?
» Filco Majestouch FKBN87M/EB
» Cherry G80-3600LYCEU

Offline ricercar

  • * Elevated Elder
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  • mostly abides
Salutations. My story and a query.
« Reply #16 on: Mon, 07 December 2009, 12:50:31 »
Most of my Cherry boards appear to be double-pole single throw, wired in series so both of the doubles have to be thrown in order to read the stroke (helps prevent key bounce in a purely mechanical solution).

If these were wired single-pole single-throw, the second set of contacts could be used exclusively for LEDs. Just a thought.
I trolled Geekhack and all I got was an eponymous SPOS.

Offline Rajagra

  • Posts: 1930
Salutations. My story and a query.
« Reply #17 on: Mon, 07 December 2009, 15:18:30 »
Quote from: ripster;139760
I just tested the LED in series theory.  

Nope.  No go.  There is only .03v on the switch lines.


Ah, you are right (mostly.) The voltages are probably 0V and 5V, but because of the polling, the 0V will only be held low for a tiny proportion of the time, so the voltage difference across a key will average out to be very low. :pout:

Offline majestouch

  • * Commercial Vendor
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    • http:///elitekeyboards.com
Salutations. My story and a query.
« Reply #18 on: Tue, 08 December 2009, 14:49:34 »
Hi Chao, welcome to geekhack. Ambitious endeavor you're on there;) I wish you luck, and since you're in Japan, I'd recommend you take a look at an older thread on Japanese keyboard shops