Which 60% boards have Fn Lock?

[wulftone]

Hi, I'm new to this board.  I searched around but couldn't find any clear reference to 60% keyboards with a fn-lock capability.  I've been looking at a Vortex Poker II as a reference for what I think I want to buy.  Unfortunately, I have to use arrow keys frequently (for non-vim navigation) with modifier keys like Ctrl and Shift.  Common patterns for me are Ctrl+[Shift+]Home/End, Ctrl+[Shift+]Left/Right when I'm editing text in places other than vim.  Especially in the case of using both Ctrl and Shift, I'd hate to add another modifier key to that in order to use arrows.  If I could put the keyboard into a sort of "normal mode" where it locks the arrow keys and home/end/pgdown/pgup on, while leaving ctrl and shift alone, that'd be super helpful.

Anyway, having no experience with boutique keyboards yet, I am unsure which ones offer that sort of fn-lock feature.  I can't even find English user manuals or manufacturer websites for most of these keyboards.

Can we compile a short list of maybe the best 60% keyboards that have fn-lock?

Other (possibly optional) things I'd like:

- Backlighting (because it looks neat, but totally optional).
- That neato "program macro" feature that the Poker II has (saw it in a video, would like to have).
- Hardware-swappable caps-to-left-ctrl (also optional, but nice).
- Non-plastic base, for rigidity/durability.

Sorry if this is covered somewhere.  Like I said, I'm new here.  : )

[BlueBär]

The Poker II has a Lock mode that locks the arrow keys to WASD but I guess that is not something you want?

The KBT Pure has a mode that makes the right hand modifiers (Shift, Alt, Win, Ctrl) to arrow keys which I think is very handy. It is not programmable. There used to be a version with a metal case - not sure if you can still buy that version somewhere.
The KBT Pure Pro has arrow keys, but has a lot of non-standard sized keycaps which will make it hard or even impossible to find replacement keycaps. It is programmable.
Both have switches to swap Ctrl and Caps Lock and are available with backlighting. Apart from that there is always custom boards if you can solder.

You can always get aftermarket metal cases.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

The Poker II does have a cursor lock (Fn+Space I think) but it's arrows only.

One workaround would be, I think:

Program Pn layer bindings for your lock layer, e.g. Pn+thingy = End, Pn+A = Left etc. (I can never remember the bindings on that wretched thing.)

You can then use Fn+RShift to jump in and out of Pn mode: Pn mode will behave exactly like normal mode (all keys are factory defaulted to their non-Pn bindings) except that you won't need any modifiers to get to the navigation functionality. Pn mode is indicated by an LED under the space bar. Arrow lock does not have an indicator, and the first time I set it by mistake I rebooted the keyboard to get out of it, as I thought I'd hit a bug.

While the Poker II's base is plastic, it's plate mounted and rock solid.

Ctrl and/or shift plus Fn plus arrows on my Poker II drives me nuts. It completely screws with my head — I can't separate out the two types of modifier, and this causes grief when you press the modifiers in wrong order. Ctrl, Shift, Alt etc must be held before Fn …

One day I'll see a nice ISO TKL with Cherry stabilisers and MX reds, and pack in the Poker.

[BlueBär]

One day I'll see a nice ISO TKL with Cherry stabilisers and MX reds, and pack in the Poker.

Oh you mean a Ducky?

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Possibly yes.

[BlueBär]

Not the enthusiasm I hoped for

[Daniel Beardsmore]

I was avoiding a total thread hijack.

[ideus]

The Poker II has a Lock mode that locks the arrow keys to WASD but I guess that is not something you want?

The KBT Pure has a mode that makes the right hand modifiers (Shift, Alt, Win, Ctrl) to arrow keys which I think is very handy. It is not programmable. There used to be a version with a metal case - not sure if you can still buy that version somewhere.
The KBT Pure Pro has arrow keys, but has a lot of non-standard sized keycaps which will make it hard or even impossible to find replacement keycaps. It is programmable.
Both have switches to swap Ctrl and Caps Lock and are available with backlighting. Apart from that there is always custom boards if you can solder.

You can always get aftermarket metal cases.

I can confirm the Poker II has cursor arrows lock, using FN+Space bar and FN+Q lock the escape key. But that's it. There is no such thing like a general lock.

[wulftone]

One day I'll see a nice ISO TKL with Cherry stabilisers and MX reds, and pack in the Poker.

Awesome, thanks for all the info guys.  What is this about ISO TKL?  I'm not familiar with those terms (well, ISO, but I don't know much about it).

I guess a Poker II with the program mode lock is theoretically most ideal so far.  Too bad about that 14 character limit, though.

I did see those KBC Race keyboards that also have dedicated F1-12, arrow, and home/end/pgdown/pgup keys.  That's not too shabby, but kind of a waste of space compared to the Poker II's layout.  I rarely use F1-12.

Where's the tilda (~) key on the poker II?  Is it Fn+Esc?

Any other brands besides the Vortex/KBC people can recommend?  mechanicalkeyboards.com is informative, but doesn't have all the information about these devices.

[BlueBär]

1. Awesome, thanks for all the info guys.  What is this about ISO TKL?  I'm not familiar with those terms (well, ISO, but I don't know much about it).
2. Where's the tilda (~) key on the poker II?  Is it Fn+Esc?
3. Any other brands besides the Vortex/KBC people can recommend?  mechanicalkeyboards.com is informative, but doesn't have all the information about these devices.

1. TKL means tenkeyless. If you are not familiar with all the terms yet, check out the Geekhack Glossary.
2. Yes.
3. Apart from customs, these are pretty much the only available 60% right now. There is also the Poker I but the Poker II is probably the better option out of the two.

[wulftone]

1. TKL means tenkeyless. If you are not familiar with all the terms yet, check out the Geekhack Glossary.
2. Yes.
3. Apart from customs, these are pretty much the only available 60% right now. There is also the Poker I but the Poker II is probably the better option out of the two.

Ahh nice Glossary.  Thanks for pointing me to it.  Shame there's only one brand of 60% available.  Maybe I'll build my own.  : P

[BlueBär]

Ahh nice Glossary.  Thanks for pointing me to it.  Shame there's only one brand of 60% available.  Maybe I'll build my own.  : P

Well there is also the HHKB if you want to go Topre. There is also the FC660 which is available in MX and Topre, but it's not a "true" 60% and doesn't fit any metal cases available right now.
If you want to build your own I would suggest Sprit's GB or getting a GH60 when they're out.

[sdiearly]

KBT Pure implemented this function, with FN+Z(On/Off FN lock)
But It's hard to buy one now.

[ideus]

KBT Pure implemented this function, with FN+Z(On/Off FN lock)
But It's hard to buy one now.

And what about the Pure pro? Does it have the same functionality?

[SonOfSonOfSpock]

If you need arrow keys often enough, it might be more useful to go with something that has dedicated arrow keys like the Leopold FCC0 or one of the 75% boards like Matias mini, Noppoo Choco mini, Keycool 84.

[sdiearly]

And what about the Pure pro? Does it have the same functionality?

Pure pro is for another design purpose.
You can wait for Pure Replica~ I am asking KBT host to keep this function.
http://kbtalking.cool3c.com/article/76796?page=1  Pure replica discussion post (in Chinese)

[ideus]

If you need arrow keys often enough, it might be more useful to go with something that has dedicated arrow keys like the Leopold FCC0 or one of the 75% boards like Matias mini, Noppoo Choco mini, Keycool 84.

Leo FC660M is very cool. All the functionality of a TKL at almost the same size than a 60%. Check it out.

[fatchoi]

build a gh60 with metal case should serve the purpose well

[samwisekoi]

I put a Cherry MX Lock switch on the Fn key on my Poker X (original Poker.)  It does exactly what you are describing PLUS it serves as a visual and tactile indicator by clicking UP and DOWN.

Works a treat, and was simple to do the mod.

 - Ron | samwisekoi

[ideus]

I put a Cherry MX Lock switch on the Fn key on my Poker X (original Poker.)  It does exactly what you are describing PLUS it serves as a visual and tactile indicator by clicking UP and DOWN.

Works a treat, and was simple to do the mod.

 - Ron | samwisekoi

What do you mean by lock switch?

[fatchoi]

I put a Cherry MX Lock switch on the Fn key on my Poker X (original Poker.)  It does exactly what you are describing PLUS it serves as a visual and tactile indicator by clicking UP and DOWN.

Works a treat, and was simple to do the mod.

 - Ron | samwisekoi

What do you mean by lock switch?

It's a kind of mx switch. After you press it, it doesn't rebound, until you press it again.
I haven't tried that before though.

[ideus]

I put a Cherry MX Lock switch on the Fn key on my Poker X (original Poker.)  It does exactly what you are describing PLUS it serves as a visual and tactile indicator by clicking UP and DOWN.

Works a treat, and was simple to do the mod.

 - Ron | samwisekoi

What do you mean by lock switch?

It's a kind of mx switch. After you press it, it doesn't rebound, until you press it again.
I haven't tried that before though.

Interesting, where did you get it?

[samwisekoi]

I put a Cherry MX Lock switch on the Fn key on my Poker X (original Poker.)  It does exactly what you are describing PLUS it serves as a visual and tactile indicator by clicking UP and DOWN.

Works a treat, and was simple to do the mod.

 - Ron | samwisekoi

What do you mean by lock switch?

It's a kind of mx switch. After you press it, it doesn't rebound, until you press it again.
I haven't tried that before though.

It is basically non-momentary.  Push it once, it clicks down into the ON position.  Press is again and it clicks back up into the OFF position.  Without custom firmware, your keyboard will interpret this as KEY_DOWN and then KEY_UP, which can confuse your PC.  For example, you'd think this would be a great CAPS LOCK switch, but it isn't, because your PC will just wait for the KEY_UP that will never come.  You can use them in place of a SHIFT key, and then it will work as a "caps lock", unless you happen to press the other SHIFT key, which will again confuse things.

In the old days, and in some custom keyboard controller firmware, this was the switch used for CAPS LOCK to simulate the shift lock function of an actual typewriter.  Now it is less useful for that function.

What it is useful for is a modifier key that the keyboard controller expects to stay in KEY_DOWN -- exactly like the Fn keyswitch does.  On the Poker, it works really well, since many of the keys remap on KEY_DOWN and you need to keep the Fn switch physically pressed to keep the alternate mapping.  The MX Lock switch does that for you.

They are hard to find, but work well in the right application.  DeskThority has a good description here:  http://deskthority.net/wiki/Cherry_MX_Lock

 - Ron | samwisekoi

[ideus]

I put a Cherry MX Lock switch on the Fn key on my Poker X (original Poker.)  It does exactly what you are describing PLUS it serves as a visual and tactile indicator by clicking UP and DOWN.

Works a treat, and was simple to do the mod.

 - Ron | samwisekoi

What do you mean by lock switch?

It's a kind of mx switch. After you press it, it doesn't rebound, until you press it again.
I haven't tried that before though.

It is basically non-momentary.  Push it once, it clicks down into the ON position.  Press is again and it clicks back up into the OFF position.  Without custom firmware, your keyboard will interpret this as KEY_DOWN and then KEY_UP, which can confuse your PC.  For example, you'd think this would be a great CAPS LOCK switch, but it isn't, because your PC will just wait for the KEY_UP that will never come.  You can use them in place of a SHIFT key, and then it will work as a "caps lock", unless you happen to press the other SHIFT key, which will again confuse things.

In the old days, and in some custom keyboard controller firmware, this was the switch used for CAPS LOCK to simulate the shift lock function of an actual typewriter.  Now it is less useful for that function.

What it is useful for is a modifier key that the keyboard controller expects to stay in KEY_DOWN -- exactly like the Fn keyswitch does.  On the Poker, it works really well, since many of the keys remap on KEY_DOWN and you need to keep the Fn switch physically pressed to keep the alternate mapping.  The MX Lock switch does that for you.

They are hard to find, but work well in the right application.  DeskThority has a good description here:  http://deskthority.net/wiki/Cherry_MX_Lock

 - Ron | samwisekoi

Nice explanation. Now I need to source one for my Poker X. Thank you very much.

[wulftone]

I put a Cherry MX Lock switch on the Fn key on my Poker X (original Poker.)  It does exactly what you are describing PLUS it serves as a visual and tactile indicator by clicking UP and DOWN.

Works a treat, and was simple to do the mod.

 - Ron | samwisekoi

Very nice, thanks for that tidbit, Ron!  I'm good at soldering, so a mod should not be a problem.

The FC660M does look very nice, but that programmable feature of the Poker II is hard to pass up for my first "special" keyboard, and it doesn't look like the FC660M is programmable, nor has Fn-lock.  I agree with some of the folk that said it might've been better to have the home/end/pgup/pgdown on the right instead of the insert/delete there, though I appreciate the choice of those two keys as well.

I guess I'll go for a modded Poker II, and see how that feels.  I might also get the FC660M and let my fingers decide between the two.  : )  I guess the addiction is starting....

[ideus]

I put a Cherry MX Lock switch on the Fn key on my Poker X (original Poker.)  It does exactly what you are describing PLUS it serves as a visual and tactile indicator by clicking UP and DOWN.

Works a treat, and was simple to do the mod.

 - Ron | samwisekoi

Very nice, thanks for that tidbit, Ron!  I'm good at soldering, so a mod should not be a problem.

The FC660M does look very nice, but that programmable feature of the Poker II is hard to pass up for my first "special" keyboard, and it doesn't look like the FC660M is programmable, nor has Fn-lock.  I agree with some of the folk that said it might've been better to have the home/end/pgup/pgdown on the right instead of the insert/delete there, though I appreciate the choice of those two keys as well.

I guess I'll go for a modded Poker II, and see how that feels.  I might also get the FC660M and let my fingers decide between the two.  : )  I guess the addiction is starting....

The FC is NOT programmable. It does not need to be though, everything needed is there already.


Good luck with your plans!

[BlueBär]

Very nice, thanks for that tidbit, Ron!  I'm good at soldering, so a mod should not be a problem.

The FC660M does look very nice, but that programmable feature of the Poker II is hard to pass up for my first "special" keyboard, and it doesn't look like the FC660M is programmable, nor has Fn-lock.  I agree with some of the folk that said it might've been better to have the home/end/pgup/pgdown on the right instead of the insert/delete there, though I appreciate the choice of those two keys as well.

I guess I'll go for a modded Poker II, and see how that feels.  I might also get the FC660M and let my fingers decide between the two.  : )  I guess the addiction is starting....

Be aware though that MX Locks are hard to find, they're out of stock everywhere. Also: welcome to the club of the addicted!

[okwchin]

And what about the Pure pro? Does it have the same functionality?

Pure pro is for another design purpose.
You can wait for Pure Replica~ I am asking KBT host to keep this function.
http://kbtalking.cool3c.com/article/76796?page=1  Pure replica discussion post (in Chinese)

Do you think that the Pure replica will happen in the near future? Looking for a pure is very difficult....

I used google translate for the chinese forum you linked, seems to be talk about the layout and what would work.

[sdiearly]

Do you think that the Pure replica will happen in the near future? Looking for a pure is very difficult....
I used google translate for the chinese forum you linked, seems to be talk about the layout and what would work.

I think it can be published in this year.(in Taiwan)

[wulftone]

So I ended up getting a Poker II with Cherry MX Browns and, a week later, a Leopold FC660C (Topre).  I really like both of them, but after a week of Poker-ing, I discovered that I really do need arrow keys sometimes.  It was really nice having a symmetrical layout, and getting better at vim, but ultimately the dedicated arrow keys are necessary... unfortunately....

Fortunately, though, I decided to splurge and get the Leopold with Topres from elitekeyboards.  I really like these switches, which is strange since they are half rubber dome technology.  The browns feel really good also, but I wish there was something between brown and black in feel, because when I rest my heavy fingers on the keyboard, the browns are so light that they sometimes register keypresses.  : \  Other than that, I like the feeling of the browns, too... just in a different way from the Topre switches.  They feel really fast, whereas the Topre feel a bit sluggish--but satisfying.  So maybe I'll order another board, lol!  I guess Fn lock is a bust of an idea.  Not really worth the time it takes to enable it.

I wouldn't mind if the FC660 series had dedicated PgUp/PgDown/Home/End, though.  I also liked the "Fn+Backspace = Delete" on the Poker.  Gah, maybe GH60 is the way to go, hah.  Bye bye, disposable income!

[BlueBär]

I wouldn't mind if the FC660 series had dedicated PgUp/PgDown/Home/End, though.  I also liked the "Fn+Backspace = Delete" on the Poker.

Maybe a TKL or 75% would be more something for you?
Also, sounds like you want clears - heavier than browns and more tactile.

[samwisekoi]

Or Greens?  They are also stiffer and more tactile than Browns.

I am a Brown user, but really don't like Clears.  I do like Greens, however.

Ergo Clears are on my project list as well.

 - Ron | samwisekoi

[wulftone]

Maybe a TKL or 75% would be more something for you?
Also, sounds like you want clears - heavier than browns and more tactile.

Yeah I need the 60% form factor simply because it fits the width of my laptop nicely (and I'm putting the keyboard on top of my laptop's keys.  The Leopold is great at this, because its feet nicely straddle around the laptop's keyboard, making it hover on top without pressing anything down).  I also know I prefer having the extra navigation keys closer than a TKL model has them.  A Keycool 84 without the function row would be ideal I think.  Maybe I'll just get one of those and see what it's like.

Or Greens?  They are also stiffer and more tactile than Browns.

I am a Brown user, but really don't like Clears.  I do like Greens, however.

Ergo Clears are on my project list as well.

 - Ron | samwisekoi

Interesting.  I thought Clears might have too much of a bump, but it might be nice to swap the Clear springs into the Brown switches.  Maybe I should order a sampler.  : )  Not sure about Greens because they're clicky, and I prefer quiet.  Blacks are okay, but possibly too heavy--at least at this stage in my keyboard exploration.  Who knows?  I'm happy with the FC660C for now.  My fiancée loves the Topres, so I might have to get one for her, too!  Hah!  She's easier to please though.

Anyway, this thread is now totally off-topic, so perhaps I'll continue this elsewhere!  Thanks all for your insights so far.