Author Topic: The answer to a lot of questions :)  (Read 2424 times)

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Offline viperc0n

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The answer to a lot of questions :)
« on: Mon, 01 June 2009, 15:00:31 »
I developed a deep interest for mechanical keyboards, and I realized how confusing it can be for someone to find their favorite keyboard. After researching, consulting with, and reading the geek hack forums, I have made an article that basically explains the differences between all of the favorite keyboards on this board, but the article is mostly about the  IBM Model M.
Anyway, I think that a lot of newcomers will find it helpful.

Here is the link:
http://ezinearticles.com/?id=2365611

Offline Viett

  • Posts: 224
The answer to a lot of questions :)
« Reply #1 on: Mon, 01 June 2009, 15:18:46 »
Great article! Perhaps we should add an articles section to the wiki. These articles (including Macro's) are great reference for any newcomer.
Keyboards: FKBN87MC/NPEK, Dell AT101W (Black), IBM Model M 1391401 (91) x 2, Deck 82 Fire, Cherry MX8100 (Clears), Siig Minitouch
Layouts: Colemak (100WPM), QWERTY (100WPM) -- Alternative Layouts Review

Offline majestouch

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    • http:///elitekeyboards.com
The answer to a lot of questions :)
« Reply #2 on: Mon, 01 June 2009, 15:30:46 »
Welcome to geekhack Viperc0n!

Good job researching your article, you cover a lot of ground. One suggestion though: Photos. The web is a visual medium; any pictures of keyboards or switches would greatly enhance the users understanding of Model M vs Das Keyboard or Cherry switches vs. ALPS switches. If you don't feel comfortable with possible copyright issues, then links to pages with photos are the next best thing.

P.S. Small favor to ask: You mention "elite keyboards" as a source for FILCO keyboards, but the correct naming of the website is EliteKeyboards or elitekeyboards or elitekeyboards.com, separating "elite" and "keyboards" gives varied search results. Thanks :)

Offline viperc0n

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The answer to a lot of questions :)
« Reply #3 on: Mon, 01 June 2009, 15:35:12 »
I would have included articles and used more legit sourcing; however, Ezine-Articles is rather limited in terms of features. Now that I already have "expert" status, I will see if there's a way around this.

P.S.
I am now going to resubmit it with elitekeyboards instead of elite keyboards.
« Last Edit: Mon, 01 June 2009, 15:45:54 by viperc0n »

Offline huha

  • Posts: 388
The answer to a lot of questions :)
« Reply #4 on: Mon, 01 June 2009, 19:00:32 »
It seems to be gone. Could you update the link, please?

-huha
Unicomp Endurapro 105 (blank keycaps, BS) // Cherry G80-3000LSCDE-2 (blues, modded to green MX) // Cherry G80-3000LAMDE-0 (blacks, 2x) // Cherry G80-11900LTMDE-0 (blacks, 2x) // Compaq G80-11801 (browns) // Epson Q203A (Fujitsu Peerless) // IBM Model M2 (BS) // Boscom AS400 Terminal Emulator (OEM\'d Unicomp, BS, 2x) // Dell AT102DW (black Alps) // Mechanical Touch (chinese BS) Acer 6312-KW (Acer mechanics on membrane) // Cherry G84-4100 (ML) // Cherry G80-1000HAD (NKRO, blacks)

Offline viperc0n

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The answer to a lot of questions :)
« Reply #5 on: Mon, 01 June 2009, 22:42:55 »
I will update the link once the editors approve of my re-submission.

Offline viperc0n

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back
« Reply #6 on: Tue, 02 June 2009, 14:55:23 »
Alright, the link is live again, but it can also be found from this link:
http://ezinearticles.com/?The-Power-of-the-IBM-Model-M-and-Majestic-Mechanical-Keyboards&id=2365611

Thank you,
Kevin Arora

Offline patrickgeekhack

  • Posts: 1460
The answer to a lot of questions :)
« Reply #7 on: Tue, 02 June 2009, 18:28:15 »
Nice Job! I can read the passion for mechanical keyboards in your article.

Offline huha

  • Posts: 388
The answer to a lot of questions :)
« Reply #8 on: Tue, 02 June 2009, 19:06:06 »
Okay, some things I'd like to say about your article. I really appreciate when people write articles, but I don't think this should be the last revision of yours.

General criticism: You're getting nowhere. I honestly don't know what you want to write about. Maybe it's about switches? Maybe it's about keyboards? Maybe it's about the Model M? State this clearly as soon as possible, so your reader knows what to expect.
Occasionally, your facts and figures are wrong. Furthermore, you're too fast when it comes to jumping to conclusions, making whole sections utterly confusing and somewhat silly.
There definitely is potential in your article and just because it contains errors and parts not exactly well-written doesn't mean it's bad overall. As a piece of advice, annoy one or several of your friends to get them into being your proofreaders. While this might not help with factual inaccuracies, it does help when it comes to making a text readable.
Publishing articles on the Internet is quite a pain, so get comfortable with writing an article several times until it's tolerable. I personally love forums for the very reason I don't have to rewrite my posts just because my friends don't like them; but if you want to reach a broader audience, you will have to deal with such things.


Detailed criticism: Your idea of tactile feedback and its origins is inncorrect. Old typewriters had tactile feedback more out of a neccessity than anything else and where an ergonomic nightmare at times. You need to actuate several levers, which more often than not differ in length depending on the key you're pressing, so without an awful amount of thought going into solving this problem, every key will feel different. Old typewriters didn't have the tactility because it's practical, but because it is a direct consequence of driving the type levers and feed directly with just the force of your fingers.

This doesn't mean tactile and auditory feedback is bad; it allows you to know when the switch has registered, which is important for control purposes. Tactility alone allows for stopping or slowing down the keypress motion after the tactile point (which also is the activation point most of the time) in order to not bottom out extremely hard. Tactile feedback is good and very helpful when it comes to inputting stuff, but this is not caused by typewriters having tactility and sound and everyone being used to it, but rather the inner workings of the brain. Switches in cars, for example, are specifically designed for a certain sound and tactility, even if you won't ever type a single word on them.

This makes the following paragraphs seem rather silly. First, there were computers before the 80s, and that's long before. As long as computers or generally anything with a keyboard existed, there needed to be switches for them. I don't know what keyboards for example 60's or 70's IBM mainframes used, but I think they did feature mechanical switches, possibly even tactile and/or clicky--it's not like computer keyboards are the only application where keyswitches are needed; lots of industrial control applications also do.
The Model M is not the first keyboard to feature tactile feedback. It's one of many, many keyboards with tactile feedback and was built in quantities large enough to gather a decent fanbase as well as having an enormously nice feel to it. As far as keyswitch design is concerned, it's extremely simple. Complicated Alps are very interesting switches, but buckling springs are incredibly boring. There were lots of keyswitches in the 80s, as well as there are a lot of keyswitches today. With keyboards being the only input devices (and word processing was not an application you'd get a computer for ("killer application," if this is still an expression used today), as they were extremely expensive, as were printers decent enough to offer readable output), computer manufacturers saw no reason to offer cheap and cheerful keyboards for the masses. The Model M already is a somewhat cheap design, but that doesn't mean it's bad anyway. It's just customers bought quality keyboards, as there was nothing else on the market. The keyboard that "came" (i.e. was sold as a recommended accessory) with the computer could be regarded as being decent and not taken into consideration when actually buying the computer.
With ultra-cheap computers like home computers, this was entirely different, and with an incredibly competitive market, this is why some of the worst keyboards ever were used in home computers; the consumers wanted it as cheap as possible and manufacturers were willing to fulfill this wish.
Plotting the Model M as an industry's-first keyboard is somewhat misleading. It is a nice keyboard, but it's not like there were no nice keyboards before. Using computers as word processors became the rage when they were cheap and versatile enough to replace typewriters, the date of which I'd put somewhere in the late 80's.

Next, your figures are wrong. The Model M has more like 80 cN (or grams, but that's horribly wrong and every physicist in whose presence this is said should beat the offender about the head with a fine selection of authentic 80's keyboards, but that's just my opinion) than your quoted 30 to 40. 80 cN, I might add, is quite a bit. Cherries seem to have around 60 at their tactile point and I don't know anything about Alps, but would see them somewhere inbetween. Topres seem to go anywhere from 35 to 55 cN according to their spec sheet.
The buckling spring's "double click" is not as unique as you'd think. Other switches (MX blues, for example) also click twice, although by far not as pronouced as buckling springs.

Next, I don't think tactility has become less important for computer users--computers just got cheaper and cheaper, giving the incentive for producing cheaper keyboards to go with them. You won't buy a keyboard for too large a fraction of your computer's cost if you're not obsessed with them, know much about keyboards and decide you do need a really good board, or taken in by marketing to embrace the features it comes with, so the only logical conclusion is to lower production cost, leading to cheap keyboards. The rubber dome is inferior to switch designs and everyone knows it, but it ultimately seems like it didn't seem to be too important for most people, leading to the situation we happen to have today.
On to rubber domes: Your notion of them having little to no tactility is quite wrong. Rubber domes to have tactility, but it just loosely correlates with activation characteristics. You do feel a difference in force when you press the key (= tactility!), but you can't tell when exactly the key will fire. I know what you mean, but tactility is the wrong word for this. Linear switches aren't tactile, you press until you reach the bottom and that's it; rubber domes, while not having the characteristics you expect from switches we call "tactile," are in fact tactile, they just feel really crappy.
Talking about my special love, scissor-style keyboards (it's interesting how this expression has come to be used so much; I think the early patents denote them as "pantograph switches"), might I add I find the most unnerving problem to be various debris, hair and dust entering the scissor assembly and turning it nigh unusable? I think this is the biggest disadvantage of scissor switches--they're just so extremely sensitive to dirt of all sorts; before the rubber domes wear out, you've got at least one somewhat sticky scissor switch. I know because I do.

I highly doubt the AAK was the first keyboard with Alps switches, but I don't know, so if you don't want to do the research yourself, I'd suggest using the AAK as an example of Alps keyboards and not as the archetype. It's not incredibly important if it was, though, so you can spare yourself the research and change the wording accordingly.

When it comes to talking about keyboard availability (or generally about availability of a product), it's always nice to add a point of reference, which in your case would be the US. The English-speaking web is large and not entirely US-centric, so writing "Cherry boards are hard to find in the US" is different from writing "Cherry boards are hard to find"--in Europe, for example, about the only thing you'll get are Cherry boards and they are, if I may speak for Germany, somewhat cheap for mechanical keyboards. I won't pass up the opportunity to complain about Cherrys abominably cheap keyboard cases this time, because I never do. They're just horribly, horribly cheap. They keep the PCB in place and carry the model identification sticker, but that's about the only positive thing you can say about them.

Cherry whites are not clicky. They're just tactile. I haven't really figured out Cherry's confusing naming scheme yet, but I suppose "clicky" switches are blues, "linear" switches are blacks, "soft tactile" are whites and "soft tactile, ergonomic" are browns.
That said, I don't think the old Model M's keys require more force. BS already require about 80 cN, anything more would probably feel extremely uncomfortable. Maybe the key feel is different due to studier materials used, but I can't believe there should be differences in activation force (however, I don't know for sure).


I might have missed a few details, but this should definitely be lengthy enough to make the article better if you're so inclined.

-huha
Unicomp Endurapro 105 (blank keycaps, BS) // Cherry G80-3000LSCDE-2 (blues, modded to green MX) // Cherry G80-3000LAMDE-0 (blacks, 2x) // Cherry G80-11900LTMDE-0 (blacks, 2x) // Compaq G80-11801 (browns) // Epson Q203A (Fujitsu Peerless) // IBM Model M2 (BS) // Boscom AS400 Terminal Emulator (OEM\'d Unicomp, BS, 2x) // Dell AT102DW (black Alps) // Mechanical Touch (chinese BS) Acer 6312-KW (Acer mechanics on membrane) // Cherry G84-4100 (ML) // Cherry G80-1000HAD (NKRO, blacks)

Offline wellington1869

  • Posts: 2885
The answer to a lot of questions :)
« Reply #9 on: Tue, 02 June 2009, 19:11:28 »
lol huha, havent you ever heard of the critique sandwich?

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline o2dazone

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The answer to a lot of questions :)
« Reply #10 on: Tue, 02 June 2009, 19:21:31 »
Quote from: huha;93993
stuff






also tl;dr

Offline BigWopHH

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The answer to a lot of questions :)
« Reply #11 on: Tue, 02 June 2009, 19:31:14 »
Quote from: Viett;93759
Great article! Perhaps we should add an articles section to the wiki. These articles (including Macro's) are great reference for any newcomer.


Thanks for the vote of confidence, I appreciate it.
  • Topre Realforce 103UB
  • Topre Realforce 87U
  • ABS M1
  • Solidtek ASK-6600U
  • Dell AT101W
  • Das III Pro
  • Scorpious M10
  • Cherry G80-3000LSCRC-2 (Blues)
  • Cherry G80-3000LXCEU-2 (Browns)
  • Unicomp Customizer 104
  • Steelseries 7G
  • Filco Majestouch FKBN104M/EB < Has Become My Daily Driver. Really Diggin\' It.
[/SIZE]

Offline wellington1869

  • Posts: 2885
The answer to a lot of questions :)
« Reply #12 on: Tue, 02 June 2009, 19:41:28 »
Quote from: ripster;93997
Welly, Huha got the Critique Sandwich perfect!



lol, i thought he left off the bread ;)

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline BigWopHH

  • Posts: 95
    • http://www.hothardware.com
The answer to a lot of questions :)
« Reply #13 on: Tue, 02 June 2009, 19:49:22 »
Quote from: ripster;94001
You're not mad he spelled your name wrong?

I guess writers take ANY compliment they can get :typing:!

P.S.  Where's that 87U review!


I'm still trying to catch up with other assignments and taking care of stuff around the house to prepare for the new baby...been a little crazy.  I'm going to round up the Majestouch, 87U, and HHKB.
  • Topre Realforce 103UB
  • Topre Realforce 87U
  • ABS M1
  • Solidtek ASK-6600U
  • Dell AT101W
  • Das III Pro
  • Scorpious M10
  • Cherry G80-3000LSCRC-2 (Blues)
  • Cherry G80-3000LXCEU-2 (Browns)
  • Unicomp Customizer 104
  • Steelseries 7G
  • Filco Majestouch FKBN104M/EB < Has Become My Daily Driver. Really Diggin\' It.
[/SIZE]

Offline IBI

  • Posts: 492
The answer to a lot of questions :)
« Reply #14 on: Tue, 02 June 2009, 20:43:36 »
Quote from: huha;93993
On to rubber domes: Your notion of them having little to no tactility is quite wrong. Rubber domes to have tactility, but it just loosely correlates with activation characteristics. You do feel a difference in force when you press the key (= tactility!), but you can't tell when exactly the key will fire. I know what you mean, but tactility is the wrong word for this. Linear switches aren't tactile, you press until you reach the bottom and that's it; rubber domes, while not having the characteristics you expect from switches we call "tactile," are in fact tactile, they just feel really crappy.


If we're not using the meaning of tactile as something that's nice/interesting to touch or the geekhack shorthand for a type of switch that nobody's come up with a good word for yet then I think your definition is wrong.

Tactile just means something that you can feel - linear switches are tactile as the feel is the touch of the keycap and the steadily increasing pressure of the switch.  The only type of keyboard that isn't tactile are laser projection keyboards (assuming you don't have to touch the table) and things like the senseboard where it doesn't feel any difference to waggling your hands around in the air (they do produce sensation, but it's kinaesthetic, not tactile).

p.s. Rubber domes do tell you exactly when they fire by their blop, it's just that it tends to be so close to the end of the travel that it doesn't help much.
Owned: Raptor-Gaming K1 (linear MX)(Broken), IBM Model M UK, Dell AT102W, Left-handed keyboard with Type 1 Simplified Alps.

Offline patrickgeekhack

  • Posts: 1460
The answer to a lot of questions :)
« Reply #15 on: Wed, 03 June 2009, 03:44:47 »
Quote from: BigWopHH;94006
I'm still trying to catch up with other assignments and taking care of stuff around the house to prepare for the new baby...been a little crazy.  I'm going to round up the Majestouch, 87U, and HHKB.


Congratulations on the new baby!

It's been nearly six months, but I still feel like it was yesterday that she was born.

Offline ch_123

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The answer to a lot of questions :)
« Reply #16 on: Wed, 03 June 2009, 05:47:30 »
Quote
Back in the 80's, in order to make the typing experience as similar to the Selectric, IBM created the IBM Model M keyboard, which used buckling spring technology to mimic the tactile feedback of the IBM Selectric typewriters.

There were buckling spring keyboards long before the Model M. As far as I know, the first ones came with the Datamaster System/23 which was a late-1970s design. The Model M was designed as a cheaper alternative to the Model F keyboards which used capacitive keyswitches under the buckling spring. The Model M opted for a more common membrane design.

Quote
Over the last 30-40 years, enthusiasts have collected or have tried to buy a used or refurbished Model M.

The oldest Model M I've heard of is from 1985, which is 24 years. I think 30-40 is quite a stretch :P
« Last Edit: Wed, 03 June 2009, 05:50:52 by ch_123 »