Author Topic: Switching from UK to ASCII layout  (Read 2023 times)

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Offline GreeN

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Switching from UK to ASCII layout
« on: Sat, 27 June 2009, 07:56:22 »
Ok I'm planning on purchasing a new keyboard and have some worries/doubts about the new investment. Filco have really caught my eye with this board, (I have tested Black MX switches before, and can imagine browns to be the perfect switch for me), yet my main concern lays in the fact that I am incredibly comforted by the regular UK layout; Switching to ASCII seems to be a little daunting to me.

Has anyone here converted to using ASCII with ease? An old thread or two suggest that the move is not so big after all, but I still have my concerns relating to the specific key placements.

Ordering from EliteKeyboards seems to be my "cheapest" option, yet I have been quoted a whopping $52 for delivery alone, almost putting another 50% onto the boards price. As you can well imagine, I'd like to be sure about this board before I make a final decision.

I suppose one more question would be, does anyone have experience with ordering straight from Japan? I doubt the shipping would be cheaper, but I have had trouble finding anywhere that could ship to the UK (Disregarding 3rd party shipping companies)

Offline Rajagra

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Switching from UK to ASCII layout
« Reply #1 on: Sat, 27 June 2009, 09:14:42 »
There was a recent thread about this:
http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=6325&highlight=iso+ansi

The ISO (European) layout has one more key than the ANSI (American) layout. With an ANSI keyboard you can either load a US keyboard driver, or load a UK driver and use a utility like KeyTweak to reprogram an unused key to be the key you don't have. Hoping to try this myself soon.

Offline GreeN

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Switching from UK to ASCII layout
« Reply #2 on: Sat, 27 June 2009, 09:41:05 »
Simple things like the enter and left shift keys having different shapes/sizes worries me a little; I play FPS games and the shift would most definitely be an awkward change for me regarding this

Offline timw4mail

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Switching from UK to ASCII layout
« Reply #3 on: Sat, 27 June 2009, 09:53:42 »
Quote from: GreeN;99587
Simple things like the enter and left shift keys having different shapes/sizes worries me a little; I play FPS games and the shift would most definitely be an awkward change for me regarding this


I never understood that silly L-shaped enter key, anyway...

but isn't that really the biggest difference in layout?
Buckling Springs IBM Model F AT, New Model F 77, Unicomp New Model M
Clicky iOne Scorpius M10, OCN-branded Ducky DK-9008-C, Blackmore Nocturna, Redragon Kumara K552-1, Qtronix Scorpius Keypad, Chicony KB-5181(Monterey)
Tactile Apple AEKII (Cream damped ALPS), Filco FKBN91M/JB (Japanese Tenkeyless), Cherry G84-5200, Cherry G84-4100LPAUS, Datalux Spacesaver(Cherry ML), Redragon Devarajas K556 RGB, Newmen GM711, Poker II (Cherry MX Clear), Logitech G910 Orion Spark, Logitech K840
Linear Lenovo Y (Gateron Red), Aluminum kiosk keyboard (Cherry MX Black)

Offline ch_123

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Switching from UK to ASCII layout
« Reply #4 on: Sat, 27 June 2009, 09:57:29 »
I dont understand why the different size of shift would be important, as you'd be hitting them in the same place to activate them. The enter is understandable, and was also my main concern when I switched from UK layouts to ANSI ones, but you adjust to it quite quickly. In fact, most people around here would consider the ANSI enter a superior design once you get used to it, as you dont have to reach over so far.

And the US layout is quite easy to switch to from the UK as they are almost the same. (I had the benefit of being stuck for a year with college computers set to US layout without any way of changing them). Someone in the above linked thread had a customized version of US International where dead keys were disabled, I'd suggest you try that out.

Quote
I never understood that silly L-shaped enter key, anyway...

but isn't that really the biggest difference in layout?

The missing button is also of note. I actually like the back-to-front L shaped enter (á la the Model F, Steelseries and certain alps boards) because it suits people used to either type of enter, however, it means that you have to have a shortened backspace or left shift to accomodate \|
« Last Edit: Sat, 27 June 2009, 09:59:41 by ch_123 »

Offline Rajagra

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Switching from UK to ASCII layout
« Reply #5 on: Sat, 27 June 2009, 10:09:24 »
As much as I hate the idea of losing a key, I do believe the US layout is better, with fewer compromises.
The 101-key layout for example:


It has large shift keys. A large Enter key within easy reach. A large backspace key. What's not to like? Nothing that can't be fixed by remapping a few keys to personal preference.

And ask yourself, why did the UK get foisted with an awkward layout in the first place? Well if http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keyboard_layout#United_Kingdom is to be believed, it was to give us some rarely used EBCDIC symbols. How many people have even heard of EBCDIC nowadays?
« Last Edit: Sat, 27 June 2009, 10:16:53 by Rajagra »

Offline GreeN

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Switching from UK to ASCII layout
« Reply #6 on: Sat, 27 June 2009, 10:42:01 »
I think I may just have to take the plunge then! Thanks for the advise chaps

Does anyone have experience with using Japanese suppliers? Any recommendations? I have a feeling I'll need to use EliteKeyboards after all

Offline Repoman

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Switching from UK to ASCII layout
« Reply #7 on: Sat, 27 June 2009, 11:52:11 »
You'll get used to it quicker than you imagine. I miss the sterling symbol occasionally, but I expected to find it harder than it was. I always tended to hit the lower part of the enter key anyway!

And I think you'll find EliteKeyboards works out being a bit cheaper than importing from Japan yourself. If nothing else I think it makes sense to support a distributor who has a close relationship with the site.

Offline GreeN

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Switching from UK to ASCII layout
« Reply #8 on: Sat, 27 June 2009, 13:33:04 »
I was unaware of the connections, to be honest. But I will gladly say that EliteKeyboards have a nice website and were very helpful in the sense of customer service. I have just placed my order with them and can't wait to get my hands on this board (Literally!)

Offline IBI

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Switching from UK to ASCII layout
« Reply #9 on: Mon, 29 June 2009, 12:14:49 »
We had this discussion in another thread recently.

Quote from: Rajagra;99596
As much as I hate the idea of losing a key, I do believe the US layout is better, with fewer compromises.

...

It has large shift keys. A large Enter key within easy reach. A large backspace key. What's not to like? Nothing that can't be fixed by remapping a few keys to personal preference.


Apart from the fact that the whole layout is a farce anyway - unless you're a really good typist you're going to be using the backspace key far more than the enter key - I feel the UK layout is marginally superior.

The left shift is clearly superior on the UK keyboard. I gave diagrams in a post in the other thread but to summarise it's just as easy to hit as the right shift key as it's in the same position it just looks smaller than the right shift because it doesn't need to extend as far back - the right shift needs to do shift + # or shift + \ which would be awkward if it was short but the left side doesn't have any keys behind tab/caps lock that might be to be hit with shift. Plus this properly sized shift instead of the oversized US one allows an extra key which is never bad and that extra key happens to be ideally placed for use in games.

The right-side is debateable, the UK enter is certainly easy enough to hit from the home row and in these days of word wrap we only need it once per paragraph rather than once per line when writing prose so having an extra key there may be more useful but it's used often enough to confirm selections and for certain types of writing like coding, poetry and one line chatting that I can understand why some people like to have it close in.

I can't see the point of the US layout having the rightmost keys stretched though, why isn't the \ key a normal key size and the others shortened appropriately? I guess it's so the ANSI keyboards can use the same case as ISO and JIS keyboards, which isn't a bad thing but does make the layout look wierd.

Ultimately, I wouldn't worry about switching. The loss of the \ key next to shift might annoy you for a while, but for gaming you can usually get on with having only 10 keys instead of 11 around the wasd cluster.

Historically I doubt your interpretation of wikipedia's EBCDIC mention as large numbers of other countries adopted the same layout including those using a different alphabet like Russia and Greece.

Interestingly many of the early iconic US computers like the IBM PC and PC-XT and Apple II used a enter closer to the UK style while iconic UK computers like the ZX Spectrum and BBC Microcomputer used the US style enter so how we ended up the other way round I don't know.
Owned: Raptor-Gaming K1 (linear MX)(Broken), IBM Model M UK, Dell AT102W, Left-handed keyboard with Type 1 Simplified Alps.

Offline timw4mail

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Switching from UK to ASCII layout
« Reply #10 on: Mon, 29 June 2009, 12:38:03 »
I don't understand why you would need the backslash by the shift key...how often does one use a backslash for anything?
Buckling Springs IBM Model F AT, New Model F 77, Unicomp New Model M
Clicky iOne Scorpius M10, OCN-branded Ducky DK-9008-C, Blackmore Nocturna, Redragon Kumara K552-1, Qtronix Scorpius Keypad, Chicony KB-5181(Monterey)
Tactile Apple AEKII (Cream damped ALPS), Filco FKBN91M/JB (Japanese Tenkeyless), Cherry G84-5200, Cherry G84-4100LPAUS, Datalux Spacesaver(Cherry ML), Redragon Devarajas K556 RGB, Newmen GM711, Poker II (Cherry MX Clear), Logitech G910 Orion Spark, Logitech K840
Linear Lenovo Y (Gateron Red), Aluminum kiosk keyboard (Cherry MX Black)

Offline ch_123

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Switching from UK to ASCII layout
« Reply #11 on: Mon, 29 June 2009, 14:13:59 »
Of course, you could just as easily ask why the button has to be above enter. The small left shift is like the small backspace on some keyboards... people who aren't used to it think it's horrible when they see it, but if you actually use one, you can accustomize to it pretty quickly.

And btw, while backslash may not be important, the pipe is if you're using a Linux/UNIX terminal.

Quote
Apart from the fact that the whole layout is a farce anyway - unless you're a really good typist you're going to be using the backspace key far more than the enter key

Definitely, I think the idea of backspace being where Caps Lock is a good idea.
« Last Edit: Mon, 29 June 2009, 14:17:15 by ch_123 »

Offline lam47

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Switching from UK to ASCII layout
« Reply #12 on: Mon, 29 June 2009, 14:26:46 »
I have moved onto the US layout exclusively. I have a couple of UK boards I plan to swap or sell.
After using the US layout I find I miss the left shift on the UK layout all the time.
Sometimes I miss enter too. Its nice to have them closer to the home row.
Also I like to make the key above enter on the US layout backspace.
Its a perfect layout if you suffer from RSI as you don't have to mover your wrists at all.
Makes the UK layout look a bit stupid.

Then all you need to do is add the HH arrow modifiers and you are good to go :)
Keyboards. Happy Hacking pro 2 x2. One white one black. IBM model M US layout. SGI silicone Graphics with rubber dampened ALPS. IBM model F. ALPS apple board, I forget what it is. And some more I forget what I have.

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Offline Rajagra

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Switching from UK to ASCII layout
« Reply #13 on: Tue, 30 June 2009, 07:18:14 »
Quote from: IBI;99936
you're going to be using the backspace key far more than the enter key
That's exactly what I meant when I mentioned remapping keys. (e.g. making Caps Lock act as backspace.)
Quote
the right shift needs to do shift + # or shift + \ which would be awkward if it was short
Every typing tutor/instruction I've seen says to hit shift with one hand while pressing the key to be shifted with the other hand. If you did this, maybe you would value a full-size left shift more? Maybe it's inadequate shift keys that drives people to type in unconventional ways.
Quote
The right-side is debateable, the UK enter is certainly easy enough to hit from the home row
I disagree. I have large hands yet I still find it very uncomfortable to stretch to the Enter key on a UK keyboard. It feels like I'm going to dislocate my pinkie. So I usually move my whole right hand away from the home position. It's true that Enter isn't used too often, but it is used more than the UK's #~ key.
« Last Edit: Tue, 30 June 2009, 07:20:57 by Rajagra »

Offline lal

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Switching from UK to ASCII layout
« Reply #14 on: Tue, 30 June 2009, 09:51:09 »
Quote from: timw4mail;99940
how often does one use a backslash for anything?


Windows and UNC paths: \\server\share\dir\somefile
\LaTeX{} commands all start with backslash.
Escape character to remove the special meaning of certain characters in shell scripts and other languages.
Produce non-printable characters like \n-ewline, \b-ackspace or \t-abulator in C and similars.
...
BS: Customizer, Model Ms; Alps: CSK-2101, FK-2002, AT-101 (SGI & Dell), MCK-860, FKBN87Z/EB; Cherry: Poker X, FKBN87MC/EB, WY60, G80-3000, G84-4100, TDV 5010

Offline timw4mail

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Switching from UK to ASCII layout
« Reply #15 on: Tue, 30 June 2009, 10:47:32 »
Quote from: lal;100151
Windows and UNC paths: \\server\share\dir\somefile
\LaTeX{} commands all start with backslash.
Escape character to remove the special meaning of certain characters in shell scripts and other languages.
Produce non-printable characters like \n-ewline, \b-ackspace or \t-abulator in C and similars.
...


That was actually a rhetorical question. As a programmer, I use the backslash all the time...sometimes to escape another backslash.
Buckling Springs IBM Model F AT, New Model F 77, Unicomp New Model M
Clicky iOne Scorpius M10, OCN-branded Ducky DK-9008-C, Blackmore Nocturna, Redragon Kumara K552-1, Qtronix Scorpius Keypad, Chicony KB-5181(Monterey)
Tactile Apple AEKII (Cream damped ALPS), Filco FKBN91M/JB (Japanese Tenkeyless), Cherry G84-5200, Cherry G84-4100LPAUS, Datalux Spacesaver(Cherry ML), Redragon Devarajas K556 RGB, Newmen GM711, Poker II (Cherry MX Clear), Logitech G910 Orion Spark, Logitech K840
Linear Lenovo Y (Gateron Red), Aluminum kiosk keyboard (Cherry MX Black)

Offline lal

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Switching from UK to ASCII layout
« Reply #16 on: Tue, 30 June 2009, 10:57:37 »
Quote from: timw4mail;100167
That was actually a rhetorical question.


Ah, sorry then.
BS: Customizer, Model Ms; Alps: CSK-2101, FK-2002, AT-101 (SGI & Dell), MCK-860, FKBN87Z/EB; Cherry: Poker X, FKBN87MC/EB, WY60, G80-3000, G84-4100, TDV 5010

Offline GreeN

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Switching from UK to ASCII layout
« Reply #17 on: Mon, 06 July 2009, 05:58:32 »
It may be the bemusement, it may be the fact that I've only recently awoken, but I cannot for the life of me think who I would need to contact for a mailing "problem" I seem to have encountered.

Quote
Class: Express Mail International®
Status: Attempted Delivery Abroad

We attempted to deliver your item in GREAT BRITAIN at 7:04 AM on July 6, 2009.

Detailed Results:
   
Bullet    Attempted Delivery Abroad, July 06, 2009, 7:04 am, GREAT BRITAIN
Bullet    At Foreign Delivery Unit, July 06, 2009, 4:28 am, GREAT BRITAIN
Bullet    Out of Foreign Customs, July 05, 2009, 5:43 pm, GREAT BRITAIN
Bullet    Into Foreign Customs, July 02, 2009, 11:57 pm, GREAT BRITAIN
Bullet    Arrived Abroad, July 02, 2009, 11:51 pm, GREAT BRITAIN
Bullet    International Dispatch, June 30, 2009, 10:23 pm, ISC LOS ANGELES CA (USPS)
Bullet    Arrival
Bullet    Electronic Shipping Info Received, June 29, 2009

Assuming I was not in an exceeding deep state of REM at the time of delivery, and also assuming that the 'postal service' would have been intuitive enough to leave me an "
Attemped delivery" note, I can only wonder if my package has been delivered elsewhere/not delivered at all.

My first intuition was of course to contact USPS to inquire about any extra information they may have on the shipment in regards to UK depots, though current time-zone differences means all their offices are shut.

I need to go to work soon and wondered if anyone here was aware of a UK depot that may have reference to my shipment? Is it always Royal Mail?

Edit: Ive tracked it down! ParcelForce are holding the item with their wallets open for me. I've got some yummy duty charges to pay before they'll give me my board :(
« Last Edit: Mon, 06 July 2009, 06:29:28 by GreeN »

Offline GreeN

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Switching from UK to ASCII layout
« Reply #18 on: Tue, 07 July 2009, 12:58:22 »
My Filco came today! I just opened the box, admired it for a few minutes and appreciated the weight and wonderful grips on the underside, but nothing could prepare me for the WONDERFUL typing experience on these browns! I cannot emphasise enough how fun and addicting it is to type on this keyboard. I simply cannot stop myself tapping away.

Forget the ASCII layout, I'm going to keep the UK drivers and put up with it. I never expected the experience to be so good! I've been typing solidly for the last ten minutes and I have lost any doubts I had with this keyboard instantly. I VERY much recommend this keyboard to anyone who is considering it as their next purchase.

I almost feel like writing a whole review on this board but I'm sure there's been plenty of them before. I just can't stop typing!

I'm going to be here for a while tonight I think hehe

Edit: I also didn't realise Filco provided a red escape key with their keyboards; A very night touch indeed!

Edit 2: Saying that, I also purchased the WASD key set which looks lovely, yet doesn't appeal to me alongside the red Esc key, so I think I'll be leaving that one in the box. Still cant stop typing!
« Last Edit: Tue, 07 July 2009, 13:07:35 by GreeN »

Offline GreeN

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Switching from UK to ASCII layout
« Reply #19 on: Tue, 07 July 2009, 13:51:17 »
This keyboard is also proving to be good for my posture. If I lean forward, even slightly, I am instantly blinded by these harsh blue LED's! I think some modding may be on the horizon.

Offline Rajagra

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Switching from UK to ASCII layout
« Reply #20 on: Tue, 07 July 2009, 15:49:24 »
Quote from: GreeN;101598
This keyboard is also proving to be good for my posture. If I lean forward, even slightly, I am instantly blinded by these harsh blue LED's! I think some modding may be on the horizon.


Finally, a use for these:

Offline itlnstln

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Switching from UK to ASCII layout
« Reply #21 on: Tue, 07 July 2009, 16:11:08 »
Really, the LEDs on my Filco (and ABS, for that matter) have never really bothered me.  I usually lean back in my chair, so the LEDs are hidden by the top row of the numpad, but even when I sit up, they are at such an angle that they are not really that bright.  They only blind me if I sit right over them and look.  They are pretty bright in a room with the lights off, though.


Offline Rajagra

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Switching from UK to ASCII layout
« Reply #22 on: Tue, 07 July 2009, 16:48:01 »
The blue LEDs on my compact Keysonic keyboard were so bright that permanent marker wasn't enough, I had to use Tipp-Ex to mask them. Thankfully I don't need that keyboard any more.

Offline GreeN

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Switching from UK to ASCII layout
« Reply #23 on: Tue, 07 July 2009, 16:52:20 »
They're not really as bothersome as I portray, but definitely brighter than any other keyboard I've used. I suppose I actually prefer being able to have a conscious eye on the lights, as I tend to get a little heavy handed after a while on the computer and start mashing all the keys surrounding my intended actuation.

I've been a bit naughty and remapped my hash key to serve as a second enter while I've been playing around with this keyboard, simply for ease of use. Though, no doubt I'll force myself to accustom this layout in the near future.

I'm also getting used to typing a little lighter, and not bottoming out the keys every time. The keys actuate a lot sooner than I imagined and is simply an absolute pleasure to glide my fingers over. The keyboard is actually rather noisy when bottoming out the keys so regularly, so this will be a nice property to address in time