ibm model f convert to tkl

[Vizir]

I was wondering if it'd be possible to mod the model f to a tkl. Someone here had modded a model m to 60%. I was thinking of modding a model f to a tkl or 60% by folding the excess plastic sheet under the steel plates. I'd been mulling this over and today I came across someone who did this to a microsoft natural kb.
http://imgur.com/a/PFsCk

[0100010]

Model M - yes  has been done many times.

Model F - never seen it done before, wouldn't imagine it would be near as easy as Model M.

[0100010]

Examples :

samwisekoi M-60 : http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=40006.0
wcass Model M Caps Lock Key Indicator : http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=21436.0
Hasu Happy Buckling Keyboard : http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=29483.0
The_Beast : Model M mod : http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44875.0

There are more, but I don't have threads handy.

[Puddsy]

If the controller is on the left side of the keyboard, it's theoretically possible.

[E TwentyNine]

I was wondering if it'd be possible to mod the model f to a tkl. Someone here had modded a model m to 60%. I was thinking of modding a model f to a tkl or 60% by folding the excess plastic sheet under the steel plates. I'd been mulling this over and today I came across someone who did this to a microsoft natural kb.
http://imgur.com/a/PFsCk

60%  Not possible.  I doubt the PCB would react well to being cut up.

TKL?  Already done. Check my sig.

[Touch_It]

I don't know Near enough to make any advise but the model f keyboards have a pcb (padcard) instead of a plastic sheet.  With that being said xtant project has more or less did this.  Someone correct me if I am wrong please.

Edit I was thinking tkl not 60 percent.  My bad.

[dorkvader]

I was wondering if it'd be possible to mod the model f to a tkl. Someone here had modded a model m to 60%. I was thinking of modding a model f to a tkl or 60% by folding the excess plastic sheet under the steel plates. I'd been mulling this over and today I came across someone who did this to a microsoft natural kb.
http://imgur.com/a/PFsCk

60%  Not possible.  I doubt the PCB would react well to being cut up.

TKL?  Already done. Check my sig.

you could scrape off some of the soldermask on the F PCB and surface mount some wire jumpers to repair the matrix, but it'd probably be easier to just make a new PCB like the XTant.

In theory it's possible but in practise very very difficult to cut down a model F

[E TwentyNine]

you could scrape off some of the soldermask on the F PCB and surface mount some wire jumpers to repair the matrix, but it'd probably be easier to just make a new PCB like the XTant.

In theory it's possible but in practise very very difficult to cut down a model F

I recall reading something during the development of a controller for XTant and similar projects that the controller was very sensitive to changes in the layout of the PCB, like it was "tuned" to the layout, the traces are a certain length, run parallel and only cross perpendicularly at specific points for a reason, etc. etc.  All EE stuff I didn't really grasp but the sum total was that if you cut up the board and changed it, even if you had the electrical circuits correct via patch wires, the controller would still not be happy and things wouldn't work.

[dorkvader]

you could scrape off some of the soldermask on the F PCB and surface mount some wire jumpers to repair the matrix, but it'd probably be easier to just make a new PCB like the XTant.

In theory it's possible but in practise very very difficult to cut down a model F

I recall reading something during the development of a controller for XTant and similar projects that the controller was very sensitive to changes in the layout of the PCB, like it was "tuned" to the layout, the traces are a certain length, run parallel and only cross perpendicularly at specific points for a reason, etc. etc.  All EE stuff I didn't really grasp but the sum total was that if you cut up the board and changed it, even if you had the electrical circuits correct via patch wires, the controller would still not be happy and things wouldn't work.

Yeah it's based on beam spring PCBs which are based on IBM capacitive memory.

There's a chance it'd work though. You'd need a custom controller for sure, as the IBM controllers had (I believe) a lookup table it compared with that was tuned to the PCB. That's why I was so amazed the 122-key controller works with the 104-key unsaver.

Also, with extra power, you could help to negate some of that by running it at a higher voltage and searching for wider changes in capacitance.

so it's possibly, just very very hard as I said. If the OP wants to do it, I'll offer any guidance I can.

[Vizir]

hmm, after reading all your posts about the controller doing lookups in a preset table, i don't know if i'm going to undertake this now. i'd like to do this eventually (or at least try); right now i have my hands full with the f 122 key mod i'm working on. i just got the hardware i need to undertake this.

i'd been using my realforce 55g for the past week while the model f is being worked on and i realized how much i miss its clicky keys. topres are great and i will also be converting my hhkb to 55g for office work. and the ibm will remain at home where the clicks won't disturb others. but i also realized that my mouse hand was happier with a tkl. so my ideal would be a tkl ibm model f for home. i think i might end up duplicating the mod done by e29.

would this model f at be a good candidate for the tkl mod? http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-IBM-Personal-Computer-PC-AT-keyboard-For-Parts-Only-/221603865215

[0100010]

Yes, it is a Model F XT.  Great candidate - especially with wcass's XTant Project - http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=51767.0

[Hypersphere]

I have been pondering a similar question. Would it be possible to convert an IBM Model M SSK to an IBM Model F SSK?

I have not thought this through in any detail, but it seems that it would require a new PCB. There is also the problem that the pivot plates must be capacitive, and those in Model F keyboards are larger than the non-capacitive flippers in a Model M.

Even so, if this could be done, it would be great. I really like the SSK layout and case, but I much prefer the sound and feel of capacitive buckling spring switches over the membrane buckling springs in a Model M.

[Vizir]

you'd need to scavenge the model f plastic sheets too. which are different from the model m ones. and even then from what i understand, the controller will refuse to work since the length of the traces etc would be different and therefore the capacitive changes would not fall within the lookup table's thresholds.

[0100010]

Model M SSK into Model F?  Not directly.  Would need to either purchase a Model F Space Unsaver (which is 'TKL'), or extend wcass' work with the XTant, into a new plate design, new capacitive PCB, a DPH or xwhatsit capsense controller and harvesting Model F barrels / hammers from other boards.

[Vizir]

so i'm now torn between these 2:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/161466379352
1+ keyboards possible with this. the xt and xt bigfoot. might have some missing parts but should make at least 1 keyboard. unknown working condition. the rest give me spares for my 122 and the new xt. and "There is an additional mystery item (122 key related)"
and
http://www.ebay.com/itm/221603865215
1 keyboard of unknown working condition. cheaper and i can buy a teensy++ 2.0 while still being less than the above.

i'd like to make a tkl, so xtant mod should work on either.

[fohat.digs]

Doing an ANSI mod on an F AT is the easier and more straightforward way.

The XTant (if it really, truly, happens) will be closer, but a lot more work.

[0100010]

Keep in mind the XT barrels have a different indexing pin than the F 122s (referring to your comment about having spares for the F 122).  XT on the left, 122 on the right.

[fohat.digs]

Keep in mind the XT barrels have a different indexing pin than the F 122s (referring to your comment about having spares for the F 122).  XT on the left, 122 on the right.

Show Image

And somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but the AT uses the "side buttress" style like the 122-key terminal.

[Vizir]

both those i linked on ebay are XT's. the seller has unknowingly entered AT.

[0100010]

Yup, AT, 122 and 4704 barrels are the same.  3178 and XT barrels are the same.

[Vizir]

so give me a reason to buy one of those 2 listings! or maybe i should just wait for a decent AT?

[0100010]

If you want a TKL Model F, I say get the $39 XT that is marked as an AT, and then contact wcass for an XTant kit.

[E TwentyNine]

so give me a reason to buy one of those 2 listings! or maybe i should just wait for a decent AT?

Of the listing you linked, the first one is ridiculously high priced.   Forget it.  The other is decent for an XT, but you'll have to put a lot of work into it.

Here's an AT: http://www.ebay.com/itm/IBM-Model-F-AT-84-key-Clicky-Keyboard-/331373715923

A bit on the high side, you could make an offer.  Would save you a lot of work.  Modifying it for the ALT modifiers is straightforward, and getting a TKL layout out of that is just rearranging keys.

[fohat.digs]

Of the listing you linked, the first one is ridiculously high priced.

What! That is a lot of good stuff at a reasonable price.

If I needed or wanted it, I would pounce on it.

[Vizir]

so give me a reason to buy one of those 2 listings! or maybe i should just wait for a decent AT?

Of the listing you linked, the first one is ridiculously high priced.   Forget it.  The other is decent for an XT, but you'll have to put a lot of work into it.

Here's an AT: http://www.ebay.com/itm/IBM-Model-F-AT-84-key-Clicky-Keyboard-/331373715923

A bit on the high side, you could make an offer.  Would save you a lot of work.  Modifying it for the ALT modifiers is straightforward, and getting a TKL layout out of that is just rearranging keys.

i like this idea... and the AT barrels etc would fit my 122. i should be able to get a teensy and do soarers with AT right?

[0100010]

Yup.

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=48288.0

[dorkvader]

Of the listing you linked, the first one is ridiculously high priced.

What! That is a lot of good stuff at a reasonable price.

If I needed or wanted it, I would pounce on it.

I live right next to waltham, if I had $40 I'd have picked up up already. The seller is a GH'er.

[Vizir]

Of the listing you linked, the first one is ridiculously high priced.

What! That is a lot of good stuff at a reasonable price.

If I needed or wanted it, I would pounce on it.

I live right next to waltham, if I had $40 I'd have picked up up already. The seller is a GH'er.

yep. i had exchanged a couple of messages with the seller earlier and he cleared up my questions right away. also, its $50 sale and $40 shipping (which kills it for me ). but these things are heavy and shipping is understandably expensive.

[Vizir]

i was interested in those 2 auctions coz of their price. but I think due to the incompatibilities between the barrels and the ease of ansi conversion, i'll wait until i'm done with my f 122 mod to go for the AT model f.

thanks for all the input, guys!