First mechanical for coding and gaming - Need some help

[TomBodet]

Hey, new guy here.  Found this place after searching endlessly trying to come to terms with what I should get.  There is a high probability that whatever I get, I'll get two; one for home one for office.

I'm horribly indecisive and to complicate things, I'm cheap too.  So dropping hundreds on a keyboard without even being able to take it for a test drive for a few days is really hard for me to get over.

With that said now I'm going to randomly ramble what's on my mind and see if I can get some help/guidance...

I've got a Microsoft Natural Pro I've been on for the last 10 years.  Everything was fine until I tore a muscle in my back and now I'm fighting RSI on my left hand.  What is making matters worse is my gaming habit.  Keeping W jammed down constantly for hours is havoc on my middle finger then all the pinky work with shift and such.  Some games I can remap to use a different more straight handed layout, others have so many controls going on it's a PITA to remap everything or using mods with them cause mapping conflicts so it's simpler to leave in WASD.  Then there's my day job as a Sysadmin where I'm on a command line all day and working in a text editor.

What I find is killing me is the constant pressing and having to do so pretty heavily to get actuation.  It's quite probable half the issue is the keyboard is worn out.  It is my understanding that a non-linear switch will require significantly less force to keep in a pressed state, right?  So I've been looking at anything with a light force rating, preferably non-clicky.

I'm about a 70-80 wpm for standard stuff, but numbers and when coding/scripting I'm always looking.  I know where to go, but a lot of the time miss so printed keycaps are a must at least for the main layer.  I do enjoy the split/ergo design of what I have now so I've been leaning heavily in that direction.

I've had my eye on a Razer Orbweaver Stealth, but the cost seems high.  My interest is the fact it has the thumbpad.  I have a Saitek flight stick that for a while I was using the hat for movement, but the weight of the stick, trying to keep it in a good position and not having enough buttons to map makes it a hard sell.  Using my thumb however was working which is what drew me to the Orbweaver.  I missed out on the CES sale since they were sold out since Christmas.

I looked around some more and since there are no other mechanical gamepads, I started looking at keyboards.  Ergodox went to the top of the list but I've also become quite interested in AcidFire's Axios.  Lastly is the Matias Ergo Pro.  If there are others I have either not found them or simply disliked them for either the layout and/or cost.  I also question they key layout factor.  Meaning, I've never typed on a columned keyset, only staggered.  So while I'm sure I'll figure it out, I don't know or understand what the benefits might be.  I was almost ready to settle for the Matias Ergo Pro but no programmability so I can't adjust some things I dislike about the layout.  They're all minor but again I sweat the details.  When I found the threads about the Axios I got really excited as it looked like something I'd really go for but AF looks like he's still a year out from any kind of run since he's still tweaking.

That takes me to switches; a whole other world of options and questions.  One being what's the real force difference between the actuation point vs. keeping it pressed?  I've had a hard look at Matias' switches, even had a really nice email conversation with Steve about a few things.  If I'm understanding, a Matias quiet has a 60g force but it's only 35 to keep it pressed.  I've typed on a standard 104 keyboard a guy in the office has from CoolerMaster made with MX Browns.  It wasn't bad but still have the feeling I need lighter.  I certainly felt the difference after going back to the POS membrane I sit with.

So now what?  I'm no closer to making a choice and really really hate the idea of having a pile of $200+ keyboards I couldn't stand being on.

Thanks in advance for helping me figure this out.

[Firebolt1914]

If you find a store with a good return policy you could buy a keyboard to test, and return it. If not, you could sell it on eBay or here if you have enough posts.

For MX switches, you can switch out the springs to lower the force required to push down the key.

[Defect]

So we could go on and on for days about switches.  Do you already know about the options available?  If not, I can go into detail

For layouts I would recommend going for a split keyboard layout.  Keeps your shoulders more relaxed and would be good for long typing sessions.  Also great for gaming because you can just move the right half and have your mouse hand in all sorts of comfy places.

[TomBodet]

So we could go on and on for days about switches.  Do you already know about the options available?  If not, I can go into detail

For layouts I would recommend going for a split keyboard layout.  Keeps your shoulders more relaxed and would be good for long typing sessions.  Also great for gaming because you can just move the right half and have your mouse hand in all sorts of comfy places.

I guess for switches I just need to clarify/confirm my findings, mostly regarding actuation force vs. keeping it held and then comparing what's available in what keyboards or compatible with which kits.

While the MX Brown gets a lot of hate around here, it's also (on paper) the lightest to use.  Firebolt suggested something I've been considering too which is swapping out the springs with something lighter.  Heck I was very close to getting in on the massdrop spring buy "just in case" but it seemed silly.  The Matias quiet switch is also of interest but I'm not sure I've seen that much talk about it besides the Ergo Pro test drive at CES.  That's really as far as I've gotten as I believe (again if I've comprehended what I've read) that I want something non-linear to take the ease off key holding.  So if I've missed an option or mis-read something with the above, please fill me in or correct me.

I agree with you on split.  It's why my interest list is all in that group.  I've looked at the TEMK and don't like some of the layout choices at all and it's not split, same with the Kinesis or their split is membrane.  More questions loom regarding the column vs. staggered layout.

[Merranza]

So we could go on and on for days about switches.  Do you already know about the options available?  If not, I can go into detail

For layouts I would recommend going for a split keyboard layout.  Keeps your shoulders more relaxed and would be good for long typing sessions.  Also great for gaming because you can just move the right half and have your mouse hand in all sorts of comfy places.

I guess for switches I just need to clarify/confirm my findings, mostly regarding actuation force vs. keeping it held and then comparing what's available in what keyboards or compatible with which kits.

While the MX Brown gets a lot of hate around here, it's also (on paper) the lightest to use.  Firebolt suggested something I've been considering too which is swapping out the springs with something lighter.  Heck I was very close to getting in on the massdrop spring buy "just in case" but it seemed silly.  The Matias quiet switch is also of interest but I'm not sure I've seen that much talk about it besides the Ergo Pro test drive at CES.  That's really as far as I've gotten as I believe (again if I've comprehended what I've read) that I want something non-linear to take the ease off key holding.  So if I've missed an option or mis-read something with the above, please fill me in or correct me.

I agree with you on split.  It's why my interest list is all in that group.  I've looked at the TEMK and don't like some of the layout choices at all and it's not split, same with the Kinesis or their split is membrane.  More questions loom regarding the column vs. staggered layout.

For Cherry MX switches, brown is the lightest in the linear portion of the downstroke but the tactile bump raise the necessary force to 55 giving it a slightly heavier feel compared to a linear switch like red.

Brown force diagram:



Red force diagram:



As you can see, all the way down, they need the same force to be pressed down (actuation point too) but the bump plays a role in giving them a heavier feel while downstroking.

Do you need that tactile bump? The answer to this question is an absolute personal preference and unfortunately for this, even if you read hundreds of online opinions on the matter, you will never really know without trying it yourself. Based on what I read online, I went for browns and after a few days I went back to the store to get reds which I really prefer. Most reviews online will state it's much easier to type on browns but my own experience is the exact opposite and I think it's easier to type on reds. For both gaming and typing, reds feel amazing to me and I get absolutely no finger fatigue from using them over long periods of tiime.

[Defect]

I'm sorry, I am having trouble understanding why you do not like linear.

Reds are amazing for gaming.  Probably my favorite stock switch for gaming.  You will not need to spring mod this IMO.  It is light enough.

Most people here don't like browns because without lubrication they feel like dirty reds.  The bump is so small it fails to deliver on its promise of tactility.  Clears with modded spring (to same weight as red/brown) are popular.  I prefer unlubed, most want their clears lubed.


I prefer ALPS over MX (many who try ALPS agree).  Matias makes great clones.  The only concern is there hasn't been enough tests for longevity.  But let's be honest, it will last "long enough."

I would vote for the quiet click Matias in a split layout...but these are heavier than Reds.  Reds bottom out at 60g and actuate at 45-50g.

[TomBodet]

I'm sorry, I am having trouble understanding why you do not like linear.

Reds are amazing for gaming.  Probably my favorite stock switch for gaming.  You will not need to spring mod this IMO.  It is light enough.

Most people here don't like browns because without lubrication they feel like dirty reds.  The bump is so small it fails to deliver on its promise of tactility.  Clears with modded spring (to same weight as red/brown) are popular.  I prefer unlubed, most want their clears lubed.


I prefer ALPS over MX (many who try ALPS agree).  Matias makes great clones.  The only concern is there hasn't been enough tests for longevity.  But let's be honest, it will last "long enough."

I would vote for the quiet click Matias in a split layout...but these are heavier than Reds.  Reds bottom out at 60g and actuate at 45-50g.

Defect this is why I'm asking, I'm trying to figure out what I'm mis-understanding.  I also tend to ask questions poorly so please stick with me.  It's not that I don't like linear, it's that from my reading, I see non-linear as being lighter in the post-actuation phase, ie - the hold down force I keep referring to.  Now from what Merranza just pointed out, even though I've looked at that force chart dozens of times, I believe I'm overlooking something.  Is it that non-linear is that way specifically due to the feedback they are trying to provide?  So a red requires the same force to keep a key held as a brown does?

I'm fixated on the hold down as running around in games is the thing that's stressing my hand the most.  I just swapped out my keyboard again for the coworker's one with browns.  That little bit of feedback is interesting, but I don't know if I'm relying on it.  It goes back to another point Merranza makes, without some trigger time on different setups, I'm never going to figure this out as it's about personal preference. 

Maybe reds with some low g replacements is what I want.  I've also had my eye on the O ring dampeners to lighten the impact stress.  I do find myself hammering away as I type on this thing.  Also I do feel a tad sore already.  I can't tell if that's the hammering, the overall change of the different board or my hand just hurting in general.

What has me worried about the Matias is the heavier initial force even though the hold down is lighter.  If I'm getting fatigued on browns, I'd think it would be worse on those.

[Defect]

So browns, reds, and blues (stock MX) use the same spring.  Like I said, 45g actuation and 60g bottom out.

The brown will have a snag in its force curve due to the tactile bump, which requires additional force to "break" (like a dam)

If brown are fatiguing, Matias will be as well.  Spring modded reds could work but they're already so light.  any lighter and you'll get frustrated with accidental keypresses or stabilizer keys not popping up enough.

The thing about reds is that they actuate about half way.  So if you can learn to hover, they are extremely light and easy to use.  This will require practice.

As for gaming... "Running around" makes me think you're talking FPS.  In which case....you will love me for recommending linear switches.

Let's figure out a good weight for you.

[Merranza]

I'm sorry, I am having trouble understanding why you do not like linear.

Reds are amazing for gaming.  Probably my favorite stock switch for gaming.  You will not need to spring mod this IMO.  It is light enough.

Most people here don't like browns because without lubrication they feel like dirty reds.  The bump is so small it fails to deliver on its promise of tactility.  Clears with modded spring (to same weight as red/brown) are popular.  I prefer unlubed, most want their clears lubed.


I prefer ALPS over MX (many who try ALPS agree).  Matias makes great clones.  The only concern is there hasn't been enough tests for longevity.  But let's be honest, it will last "long enough."

I would vote for the quiet click Matias in a split layout...but these are heavier than Reds.  Reds bottom out at 60g and actuate at 45-50g.

Defect this is why I'm asking, I'm trying to figure out what I'm mis-understanding.  I also tend to ask questions poorly so please stick with me.  It's not that I don't like linear, it's that from my reading, I see non-linear as being lighter in the post-actuation phase, ie - the hold down force I keep referring to.  Now from what Merranza just pointed out, even though I've looked at that force chart dozens of times, I believe I'm overlooking something.  Is it that non-linear is that way specifically due to the feedback they are trying to provide?  So a red requires the same force to keep a key held as a brown does?

I'm fixated on the hold down as running around in games is the thing that's stressing my hand the most.  I just swapped out my keyboard again for the coworker's one with browns.  That little bit of feedback is interesting, but I don't know if I'm relying on it.  It goes back to another point Merranza makes, without some trigger time on different setups, I'm never going to figure this out as it's about personal preference. 

Maybe reds with some low g replacements is what I want.  I've also had my eye on the O ring dampeners to lighten the impact stress.  I do find myself hammering away as I type on this thing.  Also I do feel a tad sore already.  I can't tell if that's the hammering, the overall change of the different board or my hand just hurting in general.

What has me worried about the Matias is the heavier initial force even though the hold down is lighter.  If I'm getting fatigued on browns, I'd think it would be worse on those.

Please notice I was referring only to MX switches and not other types of switches. I'll let others on this board talk about them as I have no experience with them.

Basically, O rings on reds could be an interesting alternative as it will lighten a bit the impact of bottoming out and reduce travel (which means you will bottom out earlier on the force diagram resulting in a bit less force required to hold down the key... Not really sure it will make that much of a difference in real world usage since the switch is already pretty light.

People say they mash keys a bit more on reds compared to browns because they have no reference to actuation point and tend to bottom out. For me, it was once again the opposite (reinforcing my point nothing beats trying it out yourself). I was subconsciously anticipating the bump (raise in required force) making me press harder on the key. On reds, my fingers fly and I do not bottom out that much. Some will prefer the browns tactile feedback as they tend to release the key right when feeling the bump.

I don't know how badly you are affected by RSI and injuries but honestly, reds switches are ultra light (even too light for certain people) and 60g to hold a key is really easy on your hands.

A few years ago, red switches were not that easy to find and were pretty expensive. Today, they are pretty easy to find and some boards have them at a very decent price.

[Merranza]

So browns, reds, and blues (stock MX) use the same spring.  Like I said, 45g actuation and 60g bottom out.

The brown will have a snag in its force curve due to the tactile bump, which requires additional force to "break" (like a dam)

If brown are fatiguing, Matias will be as well.  Spring modded reds could work but they're already so light.  any lighter and you'll get frustrated with accidental keypresses or stabilizer keys not popping up enough.

The thing about reds is that they actuate about half way.  So if you can learn to hover, they are extremely light and easy to use.  This will require practice.

As for gaming... "Running around" makes me think you're talking FPS.  In which case....you will love me for recommending linear switches.

Let's figure out a good weight for you.

Hehe, I see me and Defect are petty much agreeing on everything considering our respective posts

You might need a bit of adaptation but linear switches are amazing, really.

edit: Correct me if I'm wrong but all cherry mx switches actuate halfway.

[Huxley2500]

Cherry blue!

[Defect]

Cherry blue!

He posted that he doesn't want clicky

Also he said he wants it for gaming

[TomBodet]

So browns, reds, and blues (stock MX) use the same spring.  Like I said, 45g actuation and 60g bottom out.

The brown will have a snag in its force curve due to the tactile bump, which requires additional force to "break" (like a dam)

If brown are fatiguing, Matias will be as well.  Spring modded reds could work but they're already so light.  any lighter and you'll get frustrated with accidental keypresses or stabilizer keys not popping up enough.

The thing about reds is that they actuate about half way.  So if you can learn to hover, they are extremely light and easy to use.  This will require practice.

As for gaming... "Running around" makes me think you're talking FPS.  In which case....you will love me for recommending linear switches.

Let's figure out a good weight for you.

I'll hold off on judgement on the fatigue until I've run this thing a little longer.  It's a different sensation than my injury.  That's mostly due to not having PT'ed correctly after I screwed it.  I'm working on it but it's slow going.  Most of the trouble is my ulner nerve and stress at the top of my shoulder which translates down to my hand.  So middle finger W mashing combined with sprint/sneak pinky work inflames things nicely.  Then I go code and alt-tab, copy/paste work all day and I never get a good rest.

I'm also in an off position as I've never ever been able to get a desk/keyboard/monitor height that doesn't compromise in some way since I'm 6' and everything in an office is built to average at 5'8" or so.  I've seriously looked at what it would take to lift the desk height in my cube so I can get a better sitting position.

When I'm at home, I literally sit with the keyboard in my lap.  It's most comfortable there.  I use a Logitech M570 so no issues with mouse movement either. 

So (assuming the brown bump is bugging me) it sounds like my best option would be reds.  There's nothing available in a split with reds until the next Ergodox drop so that looks like where I'm headed or I've missed another option.

[Defect]

There might be Ergodox items available on mechanicalkeyboards.com

Of course you would have to assemble yourself, but the same is true for the MD ones.

You could also run with a programmable numpad, or even two 60% boards (silly IMO)

There aren't too many split choices available these days.  The struggle is real.

If you want a temporary board you can find used good quality mwch boards for under $50 shipped.  Just gotta search around and know where to look.

[Firebolt1914]

I also feel that something like o-rings could help lower the distance the finger has to travel, and to soften the landing of the key if mashing is necessary for video games.

[Snowdog993]

Just out of curiosity, have you seen the Logitech G13?  I was wondering if that is something that might be helpful to you too?

[TomBodet]

Just out of curiosity, have you seen the Logitech G13?  I was wondering if that is something that might be helpful to you too?

I have.  I was under the impression that was a membrane keyboard.  After typing all day on the neighbor's mechanical, I'm kinda getting spoiled.

and to soften the landing of the key if mashing is necessary for video games.

Yeah FB that was my hope as well.  It's less about mashing being necessary, it's stress/excitement and what happens normally in my current situation.  I've also played with watching how much pressure it takes on my kb and that's what leads me to believe it's worn out.  So I'm not sure it will happen, I just know I'm a bit ham-fisted. 


Defect, I've priced out a dox on mechanicalkeyboards.com before.  Their case is ridiculously pricey so I've been hunting for someone doing a run of just acrylic or calling a local plastics place.  Otherwise, yeah I've had my eye on the fact they have boards and switches.  No diodes but that's relatively easy to get.  I may do that just to get going even if it'll be a few bucks more in the end.

[Defect]

The MD cases have aluminium tops compared to the usual full acrylic that you see (cheaper).

You could try an orbweaver for strict gaming purposes and toss some reds in there.  They can be kind of expensive for what they are (as is Razers habit).

For coding you may consider a modded clear board or yet again go with reds for consistency sake (become a linear god)

[TomBodet]

The MD cases have aluminium tops compared to the usual full acrylic that you see (cheaper).

You could try an orbweaver for strict gaming purposes and toss some reds in there.  They can be kind of expensive for what they are (as is Razers habit).

For coding you may consider a modded clear board or yet again go with reds for consistency sake (become a linear god)

Oh I know WHY they're more expensive; It don't mean I'm game for spending an extra $50 just to look pretty.  heh

If I could have gotten the razer with the CES sale then it would have been just fine.  But yeah, $140 for less than half a board with a Dpad...sheesh.

I figure if I get the Edox and am happy I'll double up.  I can always add on a keypad for it.  People already hate sitting at my desk because of the M570.  It's fun watching them grab the whole thing and try to drag it around.

[Defect]

Best part about the dox is people stop asking to "drive" when they stop by my desk for excel help.