Laser vs optical + mousepad for graphical precision (pixel art) work

[iLLucionist]

Currently, I am trying to optimize my workflow for high precision pixel art work. For my webdev endeavours, I design user interfaces and icons for which I need high precision tracking (alignment of pixels, pixel hinting, 1-2px thick lines, anti-aliasing, pixel-perfect alignment, etc.).

My current main driver is a g400s and NO mousepad. Recently, I have noticed how much my wooden desk sucks. I have disabled acceleration in OS X (for as far as it is possible), set my mouse to 3200 dpi, 1000hz interpolling rate. But still I lack some precision. I always feel that I am going left-right-left-right around some pixels and that I have to really claw my mouse with force to get that mouse to that d**mn pixel.

So my question is:
- laser vs optical for precision pixel work? I read that some say that laser is more accurate close range, and optical more precise long range. What's true?
- also, if laser: what laser mouse? I am currently considering the Roccat Kone XTD as most people find it the most 'usable' laser sensor implementation.
– what mousepad for high precision? I am currently considering the Roccat Hiro. Any thoughts?

Thanks! My current set-up gives me RSI-like symptoms when I do long stretches of pixel work which really annoys me. I really need to change either my mouse or mousepad or both.

[Grim Fandango]

You may want to look into pens and pads available for use with this kind of work. Take a look at the products by Wacom for example.

You can read a little bit more about laser vs optical here : http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=56240.0 (sorry for plugging my own thread). There are also some other recommendations in that guide that will benefit you if you are going for accuracy. I have never heard about the close and long range thing. I am not sure what it even means. When it comes to the cursor on your screen accurately reflecting your movement with the mouse, current generation optical sensor are superior.

That said, your  G400s is one of the better mice out there and will outperform almost anything you would replace it with. If you want to increase precision, I would suggest to play around with the DPI settings. Higher DPI is not always a good thing. In some mice this can cause excessive jitter. In addition to that, it raises your mouse sensitivity. A very high sensitivity makes it hard to be accurate. If you need to offset mouse sensitivity by lowering the sensitivity settings in windows, this is accompanied by a loss of accuracy. You can find more information about this in the same link.

Which mousepad works best depends on the sensor that you use. For the G400s, there are a lot of mousepads that will do the job. As long as the sensor works well on it, which mouse pad is best is kind of subjective. Some people want a rough textured mousepad that offers a lot of resistance, others want mousepads to be as smooth as possible for optimal glide. I like to go for something inbetween. I feel it gives me the best control over where I want the cursor to go. There are some very expensive options out there, but I am very skeptical about their improvement over something decent but fairly priced, like the Qck heavy.

[iLLucionist]

You may want to look into pens and pads available for use with this kind of work. Take a look at the products by Wacom for example.

You can read a little bit more about laser vs optical here : http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=56240.0 (sorry for plugging my own thread). There are also some other recommendations in that guide that will benefit you if you are going for accuracy. I have never heard about the close and long range thing. I am not sure what it even means. When it comes to the cursor on your screen accurately reflecting your movement with the mouse, current generation optical sensor are superior.

That said, your  G400s is one of the better mice out there and will outperform almost anything you would replace it with. If you want to increase precision, I would suggest to play around with the DPI settings. Higher DPI is not always a good thing. In some mice this can cause excessive jitter. In addition to that, it raises your mouse sensitivity. A very high sensitivity makes it hard to be accurate. If you need to offset mouse sensitivity by lowering the sensitivity settings in windows, this is accompanied by a loss of accuracy. You can find more information about this in the same link.

Which mousepad works best depends on the sensor that you use. For the G400s, there are a lot of mousepads that will do the job. I would personally use something like the Qck heavy. As long as the sensor works well on it, which mouse pad is best is kind of subjective. Some people want a rough textured mousepad that offers a lot of resistance, others want mousepads to be as smooth as possible for optimal glide. I like to go for something inbetween. I feel it gives me the best control over where I want the cursor to go.

Thanks! Why would the g400s outperform the rest? Also the Mionix Avior / Naos 7000 you think?

[Grim Fandango]

You may want to look into pens and pads available for use with this kind of work. Take a look at the products by Wacom for example.

You can read a little bit more about laser vs optical here : http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=56240.0 (sorry for plugging my own thread). There are also some other recommendations in that guide that will benefit you if you are going for accuracy. I have never heard about the close and long range thing. I am not sure what it even means. When it comes to the cursor on your screen accurately reflecting your movement with the mouse, current generation optical sensor are superior.

That said, your  G400s is one of the better mice out there and will outperform almost anything you would replace it with. If you want to increase precision, I would suggest to play around with the DPI settings. Higher DPI is not always a good thing. In some mice this can cause excessive jitter. In addition to that, it raises your mouse sensitivity. A very high sensitivity makes it hard to be accurate. If you need to offset mouse sensitivity by lowering the sensitivity settings in windows, this is accompanied by a loss of accuracy. You can find more information about this in the same link.

Which mousepad works best depends on the sensor that you use. For the G400s, there are a lot of mousepads that will do the job. I would personally use something like the Qck heavy. As long as the sensor works well on it, which mouse pad is best is kind of subjective. Some people want a rough textured mousepad that offers a lot of resistance, others want mousepads to be as smooth as possible for optimal glide. I like to go for something inbetween. I feel it gives me the best control over where I want the cursor to go.

Thanks! Why would the g400s outperform the rest? Also the Mionix Avior / Naos 7000 you think?

The G400s would outperform a lot of mice, because a lot of them use sensors that are not as good as the one implemented in the G400s. The 3310 sensor in the Avior 7000 is also very good. The performance of both these mice is close enough that which one you would like more probably depends on other factors. Like, which mouse fits best in your hand, etc.

[munch]

question 1: neither, really. optical works better in every aspect currently, unless really high DPI.
question 2: not laser
question 3: anything with really low friction should be good. I have yet to find one that offers better minimal movement than the fUnc F10s/F30r. but the control is really low. takes a while to get used to.
but comfort might be key here, a large cloth pad could be a lot more comfortable. for precision cloth, the Artisan HIEN MID is a true winner for me. very good precision and control, just not the fastest of their lineup.
another BUT: the G400s feet are not great for cloth pads. the small foot on the side just scratches against cloth pads in a very uncomfortable way when you rest your hands weight on it

though, with 3200dpi, you're bound to have a few precision issues.

for a new mouse and pad setup, I would recommend: Mionix Naos 7000 and the Artisan HIEN (mid or soft, depending on comfort level you want. indicates thickness of pad. thicker = more comfortable on the wrist). ergonomy is top notch on this combination, precision should be really high, and likely works better on higher DPI than the G400s. you could try setting it to around 2000 and see if you can get used to that.

comfort and ergonomics is very very important when choosing a setup - I believe everyone here on geekhack sits by the computer for a long time every day

[iLLucionist]

question 1: neither, really. optical works better in every aspect currently, unless really high DPI.
question 2: not laser
question 3: anything with really low friction should be good. I have yet to find one that offers better minimal movement than the fUnc F10s/F30r. but the control is really low. takes a while to get used to.
but comfort might be key here, a large cloth pad could be a lot more comfortable. for precision cloth, the Artisan HIEN MID is a true winner for me. very good precision and control, just not the fastest of their lineup.
another BUT: the G400s feet are not great for cloth pads. the small foot on the side just scratches against cloth pads in a very uncomfortable way when you rest your hands weight on it

though, with 3200dpi, you're bound to have a few precision issues.

for a new mouse and pad setup, I would recommend: Mionix Naos 7000 and the Artisan HIEN (mid or soft, depending on comfort level you want. indicates thickness of pad. thicker = more comfortable on the wrist). ergonomy is top notch on this combination, precision should be really high, and likely works better on higher DPI than the G400s. you could try setting it to around 2000 and see if you can get used to that.

comfort and ergonomics is very very important when choosing a setup - I believe everyone here on geekhack sits by the computer for a long time every day

Thanks! Yeah, I really need to watch my ergonomics. All is good now, but I want to keep it like that. Started using mech keyboards 2 years ago.

Did you hesitate between the Naos 7000 or the Avior 7000? I notice that I switch between palm grip and claw grip and I am not sure whether I could 'palm a little' on the avior or 'claw a little' on the Naos. Usually, I start out in palm grip. But when stuff gets intense (e.g., fragging in a fps or close pixel work), I find myself moving towards a claw grip.

And why that Artisan? Is it silky smooth? Why that one particular (just curious, learning a bunch new stuff)

[iLLucionist]

What about the Roccat Kone XTD Optical? Is that sensor as good as the ADNS 3310 in the Mionix Avior / Naos 7000?

[munch]

question 1: neither, really. optical works better in every aspect currently, unless really high DPI.
question 2: not laser
question 3: anything with really low friction should be good. I have yet to find one that offers better minimal movement than the fUnc F10s/F30r. but the control is really low. takes a while to get used to.
but comfort might be key here, a large cloth pad could be a lot more comfortable. for precision cloth, the Artisan HIEN MID is a true winner for me. very good precision and control, just not the fastest of their lineup.
another BUT: the G400s feet are not great for cloth pads. the small foot on the side just scratches against cloth pads in a very uncomfortable way when you rest your hands weight on it

though, with 3200dpi, you're bound to have a few precision issues.

for a new mouse and pad setup, I would recommend: Mionix Naos 7000 and the Artisan HIEN (mid or soft, depending on comfort level you want. indicates thickness of pad. thicker = more comfortable on the wrist). ergonomy is top notch on this combination, precision should be really high, and likely works better on higher DPI than the G400s. you could try setting it to around 2000 and see if you can get used to that.

comfort and ergonomics is very very important when choosing a setup - I believe everyone here on geekhack sits by the computer for a long time every day

Thanks! Yeah, I really need to watch my ergonomics. All is good now, but I want to keep it like that. Started using mech keyboards 2 years ago.

Did you hesitate between the Naos 7000 or the Avior 7000? I notice that I switch between palm grip and claw grip and I am not sure whether I could 'palm a little' on the avior or 'claw a little' on the Naos. Usually, I start out in palm grip. But when stuff gets intense (e.g., fragging in a fps or close pixel work), I find myself moving towards a claw grip.

And why that Artisan? Is it silky smooth? Why that one particular (just curious, learning a bunch new stuff)

I actually don't use the Avior or the Naos, but I would've gotten the Naos if I was a palm grip user. I actually use fingers only to control my mouse, and I use a Zowie FK for that.
the Avior is a bit awkward for me personally, but it's a great performer if you like the grip.

I know how that is been trying to get used to palm grip for ergonomics but it just isn't working for me. I actually realized my hands hurt more from that due to clenching differently. with finger grip I am a lot more relaxed, and actually play better. well, I understand your concerns - I don't think the Naos is very claw friendly, unfortunately.

as for why the Artisan: the Hien is not silky smooth, it is actually a bumpy surface, and with large mouse feet, it glides really well. you get very good minimal movement precision and moving/stopping control. I don't really know why or how that works, but I've tried almost all the Artisan now and it's IMO the best precision/control pad they offer. plus it gets smoother with time, which feels nicer.
if you want something close in performance, but silky smooth, the Hayate is super good too. but it feels a bit more "sticky", meaning less minimal pixel precise movements. but it is still really good. just not AS good.

and for the Kone XTD Optical - the sensor is the same as the Deathadder 2013. if the firmware is any different, I can't say. but the DA2013 has a slight problem which is a lot of smoothing, that causes input lag, but makes for a smoother mouse movement feel. I personally think it feels a bit less responsive and a bit too "smoothed". still, it isn't bad, just that there are better options.

the Kone Pure Military uses the 3310, and is suited for claw/palm grip for medium/smaller hands though. I do like the shape, and it is somewhat reminiscent of the G400s, but a little bit smaller. tech-wise, it's one of the best ones out there it seems.

[iLLucionist]

question 1: neither, really. optical works better in every aspect currently, unless really high DPI.
question 2: not laser
question 3: anything with really low friction should be good. I have yet to find one that offers better minimal movement than the fUnc F10s/F30r. but the control is really low. takes a while to get used to.
but comfort might be key here, a large cloth pad could be a lot more comfortable. for precision cloth, the Artisan HIEN MID is a true winner for me. very good precision and control, just not the fastest of their lineup.
another BUT: the G400s feet are not great for cloth pads. the small foot on the side just scratches against cloth pads in a very uncomfortable way when you rest your hands weight on it

though, with 3200dpi, you're bound to have a few precision issues.

for a new mouse and pad setup, I would recommend: Mionix Naos 7000 and the Artisan HIEN (mid or soft, depending on comfort level you want. indicates thickness of pad. thicker = more comfortable on the wrist). ergonomy is top notch on this combination, precision should be really high, and likely works better on higher DPI than the G400s. you could try setting it to around 2000 and see if you can get used to that.

comfort and ergonomics is very very important when choosing a setup - I believe everyone here on geekhack sits by the computer for a long time every day

Thanks! Yeah, I really need to watch my ergonomics. All is good now, but I want to keep it like that. Started using mech keyboards 2 years ago.

Did you hesitate between the Naos 7000 or the Avior 7000? I notice that I switch between palm grip and claw grip and I am not sure whether I could 'palm a little' on the avior or 'claw a little' on the Naos. Usually, I start out in palm grip. But when stuff gets intense (e.g., fragging in a fps or close pixel work), I find myself moving towards a claw grip.

And why that Artisan? Is it silky smooth? Why that one particular (just curious, learning a bunch new stuff)

I actually don't use the Avior or the Naos, but I would've gotten the Naos if I was a palm grip user. I actually use fingers only to control my mouse, and I use a Zowie FK for that.
the Avior is a bit awkward for me personally, but it's a great performer if you like the grip.

I know how that is been trying to get used to palm grip for ergonomics but it just isn't working for me. I actually realized my hands hurt more from that due to clenching differently. with finger grip I am a lot more relaxed, and actually play better. well, I understand your concerns - I don't think the Naos is very claw friendly, unfortunately.

as for why the Artisan: the Hien is not silky smooth, it is actually a bumpy surface, and with large mouse feet, it glides really well. you get very good minimal movement precision and moving/stopping control. I don't really know why or how that works, but I've tried almost all the Artisan now and it's IMO the best precision/control pad they offer. plus it gets smoother with time, which feels nicer.
if you want something close in performance, but silky smooth, the Hayate is super good too. but it feels a bit more "sticky", meaning less minimal pixel precise movements. but it is still really good. just not AS good.

and for the Kone XTD Optical - the sensor is the same as the Deathadder 2013. if the firmware is any different, I can't say. but the DA2013 has a slight problem which is a lot of smoothing, that causes input lag, but makes for a smoother mouse movement feel. I personally think it feels a bit less responsive and a bit too "smoothed". still, it isn't bad, just that there are better options.

the Kone Pure Military uses the 3310, and is suited for claw/palm grip for medium/smaller hands though. I do like the shape, and it is somewhat reminiscent of the G400s, but a little bit smaller. tech-wise, it's one of the best ones out there it seems.

Thanks! Yeah we have to see if the smoothing is as pronounced as on the DA2013. Then it would indeed be sensor specific and a waste of money. But it lies so well in my hands.

Oh well, that's my problem with all these mice. None seem to have it all. Mionix still seems to be the best option then, but still hesitating between the Avior and Naos. Not sure whether I would palm or claw more.

About those Artisan mousepads.. Do they ravel? I am seriously considering the Roccat Hiro or the MM400 but haven't decided yet between hard or cloth. I like something comfortable to my wrist but I would also like smooth movement and high precision. Blegh and there is no shop where I can test pads here.

[munch]

the Artisan fray a little, unfortunately but you can use a scissor and a lighter to re-activate the glue and clean up the edges, if you're still curious about the pads. it doesn't happen fast, but for a lot of people who use low sensitivity and their whole arms, it appears to happen. personally never had the issue but it happens to a lot of people, so I'm not a good statistic.
they actually did make a stitched edges one, not sure why they stopped. those would've been amazing.

unfortunately I can't really think of any hard pads that are particularly comfortable... the thinner the better for that though, in my experience. most just haven't been durable enough. I managed to wear out a lot of them in just 1-3 months. I think fUnc F30r and F10s are the ones that survived. and they're nice and thin too. well, the F30r doesn't exist anymore as a standalone pad though. but the F10s is a lot smoother anyway.

can't really help you on the Mionix mice, unfortunately. I don't palm or claw- tough decision ahead of you!

[iLLucionist]

Thanks again! Just ordered the Mionix Avior 7000... let's see how that will turn out. If I don't like the shape, my GF will as she is devoted to claw grip.

What about the Roccat Hiro? It seems to be really 'fray-resistent', although only time will tell..

[munch]

I think the Roccat Hiro has gotten some great reviews, but as I haven't tried it, I can't say. seems a bit smaller than I prefer, so I never bothered.
but from what I can tell, it's a fantastic, durable surface. and the Avior doesn't have a lot of problems with surface differences IME. if you want to take a chance, I'd love to hear what you think!
though you could wait and see if anyone on here has anything to say about it.

congrats on the purchase, your GF will probably steal it anyway though. looking forward to hearing your first impressions!

[iLLucionist]

Thanks! I've just ordered the Hiro, I am really curious what the fuzz is all about. I'll let you know when I've tested it!

[munch]

Thanks! I've just ordered the Hiro, I am really curious what the fuzz is all about. I'll let you know when I've tested it!

awesome, I have no doubts you'll be happy! and hopefully you can experiment a little with the DPI settings, to see if you notice a difference.

[iLLucionist]

Thanks! I've just ordered the Hiro, I am really curious what the fuzz is all about. I'll let you know when I've tested it!

awesome, I have no doubts you'll be happy! and hopefully you can experiment a little with the DPI settings, to see if you notice a difference.

I will! As well as with close range and long range movements. Really curious how precise it will be. And whether my G400s will like it for now.. some people say the G400s sensor doesn't really like the Hiro. But we'll see!

For now, I am using a thin O'Reilly book as a mousepad A poor man's solution.. hehe

[iLLucionist]

So, I have the Roccat Hiro mousepad for 3 days now. It is awesome. It is very even, very precies. I've tried my G400s at 400, 800, 1200, 1600, 2000, 2200, 3000, and 3200 dpi. Will post a review later. If you have questions, please ask. I'd be happy to comment on this behemoth of a mousepad.

Further, my Avior 7000 is JUST in (literally 15m ago). It is awesome. So far, it is much MUCH more precise than my G400s. Some people noted smoothing with the G400s, resulting in some lag. I can definitely approve this. At the same dpi, when I move the G400s, it will take 1 sec before the cursor moves. But with the Avior, it moves instantaneously. Also, it seems that the g400s skips pixels a little bit when I exact the same force to move it around, whereas the avior is nice and smooth and constant across the whole screen / mousepad.

But anyway, those are just my first thoughts. Will scrutinize later on.

[munch]

good to hear!

I hope the shape works out for you, it is quite nice! the technical aspects of the Mionix 7000 mice are fantastic though.

a quick question about minimal movements and "initial motion" ease - how easy is it to make tiny precise movements with it from a still-standing position of the mouse?
like first movement you do after it is standing still, and doing minimal micro-movements. how much effort does it take to move it "one pixel"? do you need to lift it a little? or strains your fingers a little?
depends a little on your DPI as well though. I use 1150 on my Zowie mouse, so around that would be cool if you could try it.

cheers!

[iLLucionist]

good to hear!

I hope the shape works out for you, it is quite nice! the technical aspects of the Mionix 7000 mice are fantastic though.

a quick question about minimal movements and "initial motion" ease - how easy is it to make tiny precise movements with it from a still-standing position of the mouse?
like first movement you do after it is standing still, and doing minimal micro-movements. how much effort does it take to move it "one pixel"? do you need to lift it a little? or strains your fingers a little?
depends a little on your DPI as well though. I use 1150 on my Zowie mouse, so around that would be cool if you could try it.

cheers!

I fell in love with it, but I will ALSO be ordering the Naos, just to test and have them both. The mouse is really the best I have ever had, in every way. The rubber scroll wheel has the perfect click, grip, and tactility. The mouse clicks feel spot on, as well as the side buttons. The rubber coat, man. It's awesome .

For me, it takes literally zero to very very veeeerry little effort to move the mouse one pixel. Especially compared to my G400s, which seems like a genuine POC now I have the Avior (seriously). I do not need to strain my fingers or lift the mouse at all. When I loosely claw / palm (it is possible, but not as comfortable as a G400s or Kone XTD) it takes no effort at all. Even less so when you have the mouse in a real claw or fingertip grip. I've used my mouse around 1200 DPI and it is still awesome. I tested the mouse at 400, 800, 1000, 1200, 1600, 2000, 2400, 3600, and 7000 (> 5000 is argued to be interpolated as the sensor would only go upto 5000) and it feels great, slow and fast movements, across the whole range. But I have not played competitive CS:GO or Quake with it. Only casual Unreal Tournament 2k4 and Quake 3. And it feels accurate. I use Illustrator and Photoshop on a daily basis and, combined with my Roccat Hiro (but also on my wooden desk, which is horrible for tracking), it feels awesome.

Is this answer specific enough for you? Or do you need more / specific details?

[Oobly]

I would use a Wacom pad and pen for precision graphics work. Most accurate and good ergonomics for that type of work. A lot better than a mouse. More intuitive and natural feeling, IMO, too.

[geekhackforumaccount]

Since you are using Mac Os, remember that you have to disable Acceleration by external means (App).
The Acceleration implemented in iOs behaves differently that the Windows accel.

Usb Overdrive is a good solution, there are others too, since there is no native way to disable Acceleration in iOs as of yet.

[demik]

I love your username lol

[Quardah]

Maybe i'm a little late to the party

I am using an Ikari Lazer for precision working. I also do pixel-perfect work, layouts and logo designs, and some drawings overall using multiple software.

I would say Laser versus Optical there is very little to no difference, especially if you're not gaming... it's marketting stuff really. All tests are obviously flawed (Yeah most probably you have seen that moron spraying with an AK in CS:GO and mesuring the distances with his ruler; the dumbest thing cause the AK is the worst reliable spray in game, obviously bad results it's randomly generated...) and those preaching over one another are either fanatics that "heard" the truth or marketters or "scientists". That whole arguing is just silly.

I had a deal for the Ikari lazer at same price as optical so i went for Lazer having more DPI versatility as far as my readings could tell, but it's neither a step up or a step down; Lazer Ikari is black versus Optical Ikari is Silver, i went for the black one. #swag and #worksfinewithCS

Anyway i will tell you straight what you are doing wrong; your mouse speed. Please note that the mouse speed depends on three variables : the OS mouse speed settings, the DPI and the in-app mouse sensitivity. On windowed programms, only OS and DPI applies.

I am currently running Dual DPI configuration (get a mouse with a button cycling through 2 DPI settings, more is just silly) and i am running with default OS speed (windows 6th notch in mouse settings) using 500 DPI as slow and 1000 DPI as fast. Fast setting will mostly depends on your screen resolution, because you may believe 1000 DPI is slow if you have an iMac 1440p screen or a MBP Retina 2560 x 1600 or 2880 x 1800.

The thing is, for precision working, you need to be able to comfortably move your cursor pixels-by-pixels perfectly using your mouse. If that means 800 DPI for you that's fine. Take sh1ts from no one; if pros be pros playing CS at 600 that's fine it's there business, you don't have to do like them. Just be comfortable, that's the keyword. Check out Grim's Mouse guide if you want to switch your mouse ASAP, afterwards anything else is just silly imo.

[iLLucionist]

Ok thanks all for the comments. I've bought a Mionix Avior 7000 (Intellimouse-like design and feel ––> awesome) with a proper sensor (had the G400s and was horrible compared to this one) and I have the Roccat Hiro mousepad. All my problems vanished: I have a 800 dpi setting and a more speedy 1600dpi setting, I've disabled OS X's mouse acceleration and now I can finally do some good pixel-precision work.