Why doesn't Unicomp make a modern version of the Model F?

[Special K]

I have read that Unicomp now controls all of the IP and manufacturing equipment associated with the buckling spring design and is therefore the sole producer of modern buckling spring keyboards, i.e. the Customizer.  I have also read that the original IBM model F is even better than the model M.  I have never tried a model F myself, but have seen that they command a large price premium over the model M.

Given the above, why doesn't Unicomp release a modern keyboard that uses the capacitive buckling spring switches used in the original model F?

[Heliosphere]

The way I've read is that the Model F was expensive to produce, which led to the invention of the Model M. It's probably a risky business proposition to tool up to produce an older and more costly device when the market is so niche.

[chyros]

Probably for the same reason Unicomp only makes the last, arguably lowest-build-quality type of Model M - they only have the machines IBM left them, and IBM ended up making that model because everything else before was just too expensive to maintain. From what I understood, a new Model F would've cost $900 to buy now in adjusted dollars. Especially considering how flooded the market now is with $10 keyboards, the market for a keyboard that expensive would be absolutely tiny. 

[fohat.digs]

As soon as you have taken a Model M and a Model F apart, you will understand completely.

[limitz]

As soon as you have taken a Model M and a Model F apart, you will understand completely.

As someone who doesn't own either, can you elaborate a bit?

[Touch_It]

There is a full captivate pcb housed on a metal plate.  Then Insdead of 1 plastic barrel plate you have 100+ individual barrels that fit into a top metal housing that connects with a bottom plate to sandwitch the whole bugger together.  On top of everything else  IBM F keyboards are not native ps2/usb so at the very least (if we are talking about the AT) there would need to be a at to ps2 converter or new cable.  Other model F keybords would need to have a new controller made witch wouldn't be cheap.  If they didn't make a new controller,  it would be a very interesting indeavor to sell a brand new keyboard that relies on a 3rd party to make work out of the box.    This was a rushed summary of some of the many reasons this would be cost prohibitive for Unicomp.

[ideus]

It is obsolete and expensive technology.

[Special K]

It is obsolete and expensive technology.

In what way is it obsolete?  Other types of mechanical keyboard switches have been around for decades now yet aren't considered obsolete.

[fohat.digs]

It is obsole(scent) and insanely expensive steampunk technology.

[fohat.digs]

can you elaborate a bit?

No.

That was the entire point of my comment.

[intelli78]

It is obsole(scent) and insanely expensive steampunk technology.

can you elaborate a bit?

No.

LOLZ

[Touch_It]

It is obsolete and expensive technology.

In what way is it obsolete?  Other types of mechanical keyboard switches have been around for decades now yet aren't considered obsolete.

Yes but most keyboards don't have 3 thick steel plates along with specialized conductive plastic flippers and tons of parts.  All high quality materials.   There is just no feasible way for unicomp to make money.  With that being said,  if somehow they did make them I would immediately buy at least one.

[Melvang]

It is obsolete and expensive technology.

In what way is it obsolete?  Other types of mechanical keyboard switches have been around for decades now yet aren't considered obsolete.

Obsolete wouldn't really be the word that I would use to describe it, I would go more with cost prohibitive.

[chyros]

It is obsolete and expensive technology.

In what way is it obsolete?  Other types of mechanical keyboard switches have been around for decades now yet aren't considered obsolete.

Obsolete wouldn't really be the word that I would use to describe it, I would go more with cost prohibitive.

Indeed. The only reason IBM could afford to make these at the time is because they came with a computer you'd shell out $4000-$10000 for. Suppose you bought a computer for that money, I think you'd demand a good keyboard to go with it, thoug .

[fohat.digs]

Suppose you bought a computer for that money, I think you'd demand a good keyboard to go with it, though.

What? You bought a keyboard as a $300 accessory, like a monitor.

[jacobolus]

When XTs and ATs were current, in the mid-80s, all the “cheap” alternative keyboards cost like $150. Adjusted for inflation, that’s like $350 today. I’m not sure if XT or AT keyboards were for sale separately (I can’t find any ads for them in old magazines indexed by google book search), but I suspect they were >$200.

If someone thought they could sell hundreds of thousands of Model F keyboards at $400 each today, I’m sure there would be plenty of interest from manufacturers. I don’t see it happening.

[Snowdog993]

What? You bought a keyboard as a $300 accessory, like a monitor.

That is very true.  Most "bargain" keyboards from that era usually started around  $70-80.  The really good ones were upwards of $200. Some were even costlier! A 21" monitor was a rarity, and they were very expensive.  Heck, I remember buying a RAM upgrade for my Atari 520ST that (if I remember right) cost almost as much as the computer did.  (Of course I had to have toggle TOS) That is just one example.
I think my first 386 machine (A DX!) was almost $3000 complete!  (I believe it had an EGA monitor too, with a Paradise video card! It also had a 30MB RLL drive!  Unheard of at that time!)  It's actually amazing how far technology has come, but the keyboard remains virtually unchanged and other computer components have significantly dropped in value.
Enough reminiscing for now.

[ideus]

It is obsolete and expensive technology.

In what way is it obsolete?  Other types of mechanical keyboard switches have been around for decades now yet aren't considered obsolete.

Obsolete wouldn't really be the word that I would use to describe it, I would go more with cost prohibitive.

Indeed. The only reason IBM could afford to make these at the time is because they came with a computer you'd shell out $4000-$10000 for. Suppose you bought a computer for that money, I think you'd demand a good keyboard to go with it, thoug .

Obsolete means the tooling and manufacturing processes are outdated, with no maintenance and therefore there is no way to produce these keyboards in an efficient way. MX switches are being manufactured, and even some new producers are entering the market with brand new molds, tools and even small design variations.

Obsolescence is an actual condition of the manufacturing system or the design, not an adjective. It is not related with the merits of the original design.

[FrostyToast]

Making these boards would just be too much of an investment for an already niche market.
Even the ones who know of the glory of buckling springs aren't even aware of the difference between F and M switches.

[jacobolus]

Obsolete means the tooling and manufacturing processes are outdated, with no maintenance and therefore there is no way to produce these keyboards in an efficient way. [...] Obsolescence is an actual condition of the manufacturing system or the design, not an adjective. It is not related with the merits of the original design.

Are you telling us what you personally mean by these words, or are you trying to define them generically? As usually understood in regular conversational English, “obsolescence” is a noun, the process by which something becomes obsolete, and “obsolescent” is an adjective, describing something which is in the middle of that process, i.e. which is becoming obsolete, but not obsolete yet.

[Snowdog993]

Obsolete means the tooling and manufacturing processes are outdated, with no maintenance and therefore there is no way to produce these keyboards in an efficient way. [...] Obsolescence is an actual condition of the manufacturing system or the design, not an adjective. It is not related with the merits of the original design.

Are you telling us what you personally mean by these words, or are you trying to define them generically? As usually understood in regular conversational English, “obsolescence” is a noun, the process by which something becomes obsolete, and “obsolescent” is an adjective, describing something which is in the middle of that process, i.e. which is becoming obsolete, but not obsolete yet.

All of this talk makes me feel a bit older now.  I feel like I am obsolete.  The new generation is here and they take it from here.  What happens in the future is in their hands.  The buckling spring can survive only if there is still a demand for them.  As much as I want to say it will survive, it could die too.

[ideus]

It is only what I meant in my original comment. However, this thread is now more about how we feel about BS boards, and no more about the original question.

We love keyboard technologies without regarding if they are currently available or not, so for us defining obsolescence about what we like could lead to never ending discussions, thus, trying to define that is futile. However this thread asked a particular question whose answer has to do with technical and economical feasibility that only a few comments addressed.

[Snowdog993]

Okay seriously.
I think this question has more to do with NKRO rather than model F or M.
If that is the case, they would have to redesign the membrane and controller for NKRO over model M 2KRO.
I think the Soarer adapter for PS/2 or even USB to USB can do that now?
Is that the actual question?

Edit.

[Chromako]

From someone who is working on restoring an old Model F to its potential glory:

These things are insanely complicated and overengineered (which I love)- and would be very expensive to produce. The final assembly involves over 200 parts (without counting keycaps), and the assembly process is unforgiving and takes quite a long time-


My current best record is 90 minutes to re-assemble my AT Model F. Compare that to something like 15 minutes to field-strip AND reassemble my Topre board. That's a lot of labor costs for a company like Unicomp that manufacturers in the US. I suppose they could automate the assembly, but that'd be expensive, too. Who is willing to buy a $400 keyboard in this day and age? Not many. Not enough to make it commercially worth it.


I love that IBM made a product that is still good 30 years after it was made- I really wish more things were made to last, but the days of that being a common thing (and $6000 computers in 2015 money) are over. There are both good and bad things about the progression towards cheaper and more affordable computers and peripherals.

[Special K]

From someone who is working on restoring an old Model F to its potential glory:

These things are insanely complicated and overengineered (which I love)- and would be very expensive to produce. The final assembly involves over 200 parts (without counting keycaps), and the assembly process is unforgiving and takes quite a long time-


My current best record is 90 minutes to re-assemble my AT Model F. Compare that to something like 15 minutes to field-strip AND reassemble my Topre board. That's a lot of labor costs for a company like Unicomp that manufacturers in the US. I suppose they could automate the assembly, but that'd be expensive, too. Who is willing to buy a $400 keyboard in this day and age? Not many. Not enough to make it commercially worth it.


I love that IBM made a product that is still good 30 years after it was made- I really wish more things were made to last, but the days of that being a common thing (and $6000 computers in 2015 money) are over. There are both good and bad things about the progression towards cheaper and more affordable computers and peripherals.

I apparently didn't have a full understanding of just how much more complex a model F is compared to a model M when I created this thread.  That said, now that I've read so much about them I'm intrigued enough to want to try one.  Unfortunately the restored ones are quite expensive.  Given the way things have gone since I've found GH, I suspect I'll end up getting one eventually.  If nothing else I could probably resell it for close to what I paid for it.  Mechanical keyboards seem to hold their value surprisingly well.

[Parak]

Fs were very much produced in an automated manner, as otherwise the costs would have been truly astronomical. However the required tooling and material costs were, and still are, just way too much. Well.. cost reductions can definitely happen without adversely impacting the feel, but it'd still be way too much money to try and set up production for them, especially given the limited market space.

[jacobolus]

I just found some prices from a 1984 PC Mag:

keyboard	1984 price	2014 $
Key Tronic 5150	$209	$476
Key Tronic 5151	$255	$581
Cherry Wireless	$275	$627
Cherry OEM	$199	$453
Colby Key 2	$260	$592
IBM PC (XT)	$243	$554
IBM PCjr	$97	$221
Display Telecommunications	$150	$342
IBM Selectric typewriter	$998	$2,274

(Selectric price is for the full typewriter)

People used to really pay for keyboard quality. I can’t imagine someone spending $550 today for an XT keyboard. :-)

[Oobly]

I just found some prices from a 1984 PC Mag:

keyboard	1984 price	2014 $
Key Tronic 5150	$209	$476
Key Tronic 5151	$255	$581
Cherry Wireless	$275	$627
Cherry OEM	$199	$453
Colby Key 2	$260	$592
IBM PC (XT)	$243	$554
IBM PCjr	$97	$221
Display Telecommunications	$150	$342
IBM Selectric typewriter	$998	$2,274

(Selectric price is for the full typewriter)

People used to really pay for keyboard quality. I can’t imagine someone spending $550 today for an XT keyboard. :-)

But computer system prices are also lower now, so it doesn't really match anyway. If you're buying a 10,000 dollar machine it's okay to spend 550 on a keyboard since it matches the perceived value and is critical to the use of the machine.

[jacobolus]

But computer system prices are also lower now,

That’s an understatement!

The point though is that there are many keyboard designs that are feasible at a $500 price point but no longer feasible at a $100 price point. Which explains why Unicomp (or anyone else) doesn’t produce a Model F in 2015.

[Hyde]

Guys don't worry, once Unicomp finish their 60% buckling spring in 2035 then they'll have time to move onto model F which will debut in 2089.

[Computer-Lab in Basement]

Guys don't worry, once Unicomp finish their 60% buckling spring in 2035 then they'll have time to move onto model F which will debut in 2089.

but they haven't even finished their TKL... and that won't be ready until 2024

[Tempest790]

You won't have to wait that long.

I hereby pledge, upon winning the $500 million Powerball, that I will invest a portion of that money to bring back a modern version of the Type F keyboard.  Yes, I'll be first to get one, then put them on sale for a reasonable price for others.  Depending on the cost, it may be a limited run, but we'll see.

That said, would it be more feasible to have strict quality control and possible manufacture this in China or Taiwan, or try to keep it here in the U.S where it may be more expensive?

[Melvang]

You won't have to wait that long.

I hereby pledge, upon winning the $500 million Powerball, that I will invest a portion of that money to bring back a modern version of the Type F keyboard.  Yes, I'll be first to get one, then put them on sale for a reasonable price for others.  Depending on the cost, it may be a limited run, but we'll see.

That said, would it be more feasible to have strict quality control and possible manufacture this in China or Taiwan, or try to keep it here in the U.S where it may be more expensive?

Keep it here in the US.  I feel you would be able to get tighter on the QC, plus shipping time is drastically reduced, and little to no language barrier.

[Lu_e]

You won't have to wait that long.

I hereby pledge, upon winning the $500 million Powerball, that I will invest a portion of that money to bring back a modern version of the Type F keyboard.  Yes, I'll be first to get one, then put them on sale for a reasonable price for others.  Depending on the cost, it may be a limited run, but we'll see.

That said, would it be more feasible to have strict quality control and possible manufacture this in China or Taiwan, or try to keep it here in the U.S where it may be more expensive?

So like this guy

 

But it would be a capacative buckling spring keyboard?

[fohat.digs]

I hereby pledge, upon winning the $500 million Powerball, that I will invest a portion of that money to bring back a modern version of the Type F keyboard.  Yes, I'll be first to get one, then put them on sale for a reasonable price for others.  Depending on the cost, it may be a limited run, but we'll see.

I bought a Powerball ticket today, and, if it is the winner, I will do the same.

[Chromako]

Guys don't worry, once Unicomp finish their 60% buckling spring in 2035 then they'll have time to move onto model F which will debut in 2089.

 

but they haven't even finished their TKL... and that won't be ready until 2024

Capacitive Buckling Spring Ergodox... coming to you in 2132!