Author Topic: gaydar tech and religious laws  (Read 7456 times)

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Offline Melvang

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Re: gaydar tech and religious laws
« Reply #50 on: Fri, 27 March 2015, 11:24:52 »
Business owners should be able to do business with whomever they want. If they don't want to serve Christians, or gays, or whites, that's fine.
sure. but they will lose money this way...

Heedpantsnow subscribes to the theory that the government should stay out of the businesses and let the free market decide the fate of these businesses. So if the business refuses to deal with a certain group, that group shouldn't deal with those businesses and the people who support those group should follow suit - thereby either the business loses enough money (to their rivals that serve said groups) to rectify their ways (or they don't, but no one cares because the group doesn't deal with the business anyways).

Some of the others subscribe to the theory that there are locations where such businesses are the only said businesses in town, and to deny a group the ability to access those businesses (let's say, a funeral casket business in a town where the next nearest casket store is several hundred miles away) would be unfair to that group. And the argument that said groups should create a competing business is an unreasonable request because of the complications and cost of creating a business to compete with one that is already in place.
no problem, the world is generally unfair.

Right, but this is in the United States, where equality gets just as much airtime as freedom. Hence the whole discussion - does equality trump freedom (businesses must serve all customers equally), or does freedom trump equality (businesses are free to deny certain customers)?

Business do have a choice, but not total freedom of choice. 

I remember reading of a story here in the US about cake shop that refused to do a wedding cake for a gay couples wedding because of religion.  They took the place to court and the court said they had to make the cake, that sexual preferece of the client was not a valid reason to refuse service.  The cake shop just said screw it and closed shop. 

Had the couple come in drunk, no clothes on, disruptive, rude, etc, then the shop would have had legal grounds to refuse service.  But their reasons were not legal.  I say good on the court for standing up to the bigotry.

If you are that narrow minded that you wouldn't service clients for those reasons, then I don't feel a bit sorry when courts make these decisions.

I really hope that the law suit for that indoor gun range owner in South West US gets hammered by the courts.  She has publicly stated that she will refuse service to Muslims.  This is outright illegal for a public business.  Her reasoning is she doesn't want terrorists in here range.  If she is that worried about it, then she needs to make it a private club and preform background checks based on the results.  And then she can refuse membership based on that.  Though I am not sure if a private club can legally refuse membership based on religion, race, sex, creed, and the other terms of illegal discrimination. 

For what its worth, in 2014 you had better chances of being killed by a toddler than a terrorist in the USA.  There were 3 deaths from terrorists on US soil, and 5 deaths from toddlers on US soil.
I still believe a company is in his right to refuse a customer/business.
If a client were to come and ask a website on a thing that's against my principles (but legal in term of the law), I should be able to refuse it.
Same goes for the cake story, you have to agree that if you were religious, doing a gay wedding cake, would not be something you want to do.

Actually no I wouldn't agree.  I don't agree with any organized religion, does that mean I should refuse to do any keyboard/fabrication work here to anyone that has any sort of religious belief?  No, because my beliefs have no bearing on a business relationship. 
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Offline heedpantsnow

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Re: gaydar tech and religious laws
« Reply #51 on: Fri, 27 March 2015, 11:26:50 »

Business owners should be able to do business with whomever they want. If they don't want to serve Christians, or gays, or whites, that's fine.

If that is the way a business owner feels, then they either need to get with the times, or move somewhere that practice is legal.

I hear Tunisia, Somalia, and Afghanistan are pleasant places to do business if you like to be able to discriminate on religion, gender, and color.
Tunisia, really? Have you just randomly picked a country with brown people?

Bro that wasn't me. Nubs posted that basically telling me to GTFO since I don't agree with him.
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Offline baldgye

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Re: gaydar tech and religious laws
« Reply #52 on: Fri, 27 March 2015, 11:27:24 »
Business owners should be able to do business with whomever they want. If they don't want to serve Christians, or gays, or whites, that's fine.
sure. but they will lose money this way...

Heedpantsnow subscribes to the theory that the government should stay out of the businesses and let the free market decide the fate of these businesses. So if the business refuses to deal with a certain group, that group shouldn't deal with those businesses and the people who support those group should follow suit - thereby either the business loses enough money (to their rivals that serve said groups) to rectify their ways (or they don't, but no one cares because the group doesn't deal with the business anyways).

Some of the others subscribe to the theory that there are locations where such businesses are the only said businesses in town, and to deny a group the ability to access those businesses (let's say, a funeral casket business in a town where the next nearest casket store is several hundred miles away) would be unfair to that group. And the argument that said groups should create a competing business is an unreasonable request because of the complications and cost of creating a business to compete with one that is already in place.
no problem, the world is generally unfair.

Right, but this is in the United States, where equality gets just as much airtime as freedom. Hence the whole discussion - does equality trump freedom (businesses must serve all customers equally), or does freedom trump equality (businesses are free to deny certain customers)?

Business do have a choice, but not total freedom of choice. 

I remember reading of a story here in the US about cake shop that refused to do a wedding cake for a gay couples wedding because of religion.  They took the place to court and the court said they had to make the cake, that sexual preferece of the client was not a valid reason to refuse service.  The cake shop just said screw it and closed shop. 

Had the couple come in drunk, no clothes on, disruptive, rude, etc, then the shop would have had legal grounds to refuse service.  But their reasons were not legal.  I say good on the court for standing up to the bigotry.

If you are that narrow minded that you wouldn't service clients for those reasons, then I don't feel a bit sorry when courts make these decisions.

I really hope that the law suit for that indoor gun range owner in South West US gets hammered by the courts.  She has publicly stated that she will refuse service to Muslims.  This is outright illegal for a public business.  Her reasoning is she doesn't want terrorists in here range.  If she is that worried about it, then she needs to make it a private club and preform background checks based on the results.  And then she can refuse membership based on that.  Though I am not sure if a private club can legally refuse membership based on religion, race, sex, creed, and the other terms of illegal discrimination. 

For what its worth, in 2014 you had better chances of being killed by a toddler than a terrorist in the USA.  There were 3 deaths from terrorists on US soil, and 5 deaths from toddlers on US soil.
I still believe a company is in his right to refuse a customer/business.
If a client were to come and ask a website on a thing that's against my principles (but legal in term of the law), I should be able to refuse it.
Same goes for the cake story, you have to agree that if you were religious, doing a gay wedding cake, would not be something you want to do.

I don't really agree... being gay or straight isn't something you can choose to be... being religious is a choice you have made, as such you then can't expect to be able to force your view of the world on other people.

While idk the details of that exact example I think it's pretty fair the couple took them to court.

Offline Melvang

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Re: gaydar tech and religious laws
« Reply #53 on: Fri, 27 March 2015, 11:33:53 »
Business owners should be able to do business with whomever they want. If they don't want to serve Christians, or gays, or whites, that's fine.
sure. but they will lose money this way...

Heedpantsnow subscribes to the theory that the government should stay out of the businesses and let the free market decide the fate of these businesses. So if the business refuses to deal with a certain group, that group shouldn't deal with those businesses and the people who support those group should follow suit - thereby either the business loses enough money (to their rivals that serve said groups) to rectify their ways (or they don't, but no one cares because the group doesn't deal with the business anyways).

Some of the others subscribe to the theory that there are locations where such businesses are the only said businesses in town, and to deny a group the ability to access those businesses (let's say, a funeral casket business in a town where the next nearest casket store is several hundred miles away) would be unfair to that group. And the argument that said groups should create a competing business is an unreasonable request because of the complications and cost of creating a business to compete with one that is already in place.
no problem, the world is generally unfair.

Right, but this is in the United States, where equality gets just as much airtime as freedom. Hence the whole discussion - does equality trump freedom (businesses must serve all customers equally), or does freedom trump equality (businesses are free to deny certain customers)?

Business do have a choice, but not total freedom of choice. 

I remember reading of a story here in the US about cake shop that refused to do a wedding cake for a gay couples wedding because of religion.  They took the place to court and the court said they had to make the cake, that sexual preferece of the client was not a valid reason to refuse service.  The cake shop just said screw it and closed shop. 

Had the couple come in drunk, no clothes on, disruptive, rude, etc, then the shop would have had legal grounds to refuse service.  But their reasons were not legal.  I say good on the court for standing up to the bigotry.

If you are that narrow minded that you wouldn't service clients for those reasons, then I don't feel a bit sorry when courts make these decisions.

I really hope that the law suit for that indoor gun range owner in South West US gets hammered by the courts.  She has publicly stated that she will refuse service to Muslims.  This is outright illegal for a public business.  Her reasoning is she doesn't want terrorists in here range.  If she is that worried about it, then she needs to make it a private club and preform background checks based on the results.  And then she can refuse membership based on that.  Though I am not sure if a private club can legally refuse membership based on religion, race, sex, creed, and the other terms of illegal discrimination. 

For what its worth, in 2014 you had better chances of being killed by a toddler than a terrorist in the USA.  There were 3 deaths from terrorists on US soil, and 5 deaths from toddlers on US soil.
I still believe a company is in his right to refuse a customer/business.
If a client were to come and ask a website on a thing that's against my principles (but legal in term of the law), I should be able to refuse it.
Same goes for the cake story, you have to agree that if you were religious, doing a gay wedding cake, would not be something you want to do.

I don't really agree... being gay or straight isn't something you can choose to be... being religious is a choice you have made, as such you then can't expect to be able to force your view of the world on other people.

While idk the details of that exact example I think it's pretty fair the couple took them to court.

Just did a little digging and apparently they would bake cakes and such for gay couples, just not the wedding cake.  After the ruling they quit doing wedding cakes and not closing doors.  Though according to one article they did do a wedding cake for a pair of dogs.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/06/03/jack-phillips-masterpiece-cakeshop-_n_5438726.html

http://aclu-co.org/court-rules-bakery-illegally-discriminated-against-gay-couple/
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Offline azhdar

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Re: gaydar tech and religious laws
« Reply #54 on: Fri, 27 March 2015, 11:34:49 »
Business owners should be able to do business with whomever they want. If they don't want to serve Christians, or gays, or whites, that's fine.
sure. but they will lose money this way...

Heedpantsnow subscribes to the theory that the government should stay out of the businesses and let the free market decide the fate of these businesses. So if the business refuses to deal with a certain group, that group shouldn't deal with those businesses and the people who support those group should follow suit - thereby either the business loses enough money (to their rivals that serve said groups) to rectify their ways (or they don't, but no one cares because the group doesn't deal with the business anyways).

Some of the others subscribe to the theory that there are locations where such businesses are the only said businesses in town, and to deny a group the ability to access those businesses (let's say, a funeral casket business in a town where the next nearest casket store is several hundred miles away) would be unfair to that group. And the argument that said groups should create a competing business is an unreasonable request because of the complications and cost of creating a business to compete with one that is already in place.
no problem, the world is generally unfair.

Right, but this is in the United States, where equality gets just as much airtime as freedom. Hence the whole discussion - does equality trump freedom (businesses must serve all customers equally), or does freedom trump equality (businesses are free to deny certain customers)?

Business do have a choice, but not total freedom of choice. 

I remember reading of a story here in the US about cake shop that refused to do a wedding cake for a gay couples wedding because of religion.  They took the place to court and the court said they had to make the cake, that sexual preferece of the client was not a valid reason to refuse service.  The cake shop just said screw it and closed shop. 

Had the couple come in drunk, no clothes on, disruptive, rude, etc, then the shop would have had legal grounds to refuse service.  But their reasons were not legal.  I say good on the court for standing up to the bigotry.

If you are that narrow minded that you wouldn't service clients for those reasons, then I don't feel a bit sorry when courts make these decisions.

I really hope that the law suit for that indoor gun range owner in South West US gets hammered by the courts.  She has publicly stated that she will refuse service to Muslims.  This is outright illegal for a public business.  Her reasoning is she doesn't want terrorists in here range.  If she is that worried about it, then she needs to make it a private club and preform background checks based on the results.  And then she can refuse membership based on that.  Though I am not sure if a private club can legally refuse membership based on religion, race, sex, creed, and the other terms of illegal discrimination. 

For what its worth, in 2014 you had better chances of being killed by a toddler than a terrorist in the USA.  There were 3 deaths from terrorists on US soil, and 5 deaths from toddlers on US soil.
I still believe a company is in his right to refuse a customer/business.
If a client were to come and ask a website on a thing that's against my principles (but legal in term of the law), I should be able to refuse it.
Same goes for the cake story, you have to agree that if you were religious, doing a gay wedding cake, would not be something you want to do.

Actually no I wouldn't agree.  I don't agree with any organized religion, does that mean I should refuse to do any keyboard/fabrication work here to anyone that has any sort of religious belief?  No, because my beliefs have no bearing on a business relationship.

It is to be noted that I'm strongly anti religion aswell.

Then you're much stronger than I about making a distinction of your personnal life and your work life.
Of course if I'm not part of the decision I'd do the job regardless of my principles but if I had a word to say, I will never do something I don't believe in.



I don't really agree... being gay or straight isn't something you can choose to be... being religious is a choice you have made, as such you then can't expect to be able to force your view of the world on other people.

While idk the details of that exact example I think it's pretty fair the couple took them to court.
You're not forcing your "view of the world" on them, you're refusing to do something that make you uncomfortable. Refusing to do a cake, is such a minor event. It's not like they harmed them or make their life miserable. They had to go to another bakery to get a cake.
And more over they forced them to do a cake through tribunal ? Don't know who's the most messed up, the couple or the bakery?
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Offline baldgye

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Re: gaydar tech and religious laws
« Reply #55 on: Fri, 27 March 2015, 11:35:47 »
I knew they were going to be Christian... haha as always upholding Christian values hahaha!

You're not forcing your "view of the world" on them, you're refusing to do something that make you uncomfortable. Refusing to do a cake, is such a minor event. It's not like they harmed them or make their life miserable. They had to go to another bakery to get a cake.
And more over they forced them to do a cake through tribunal ? Don't know who's the most messed up, the couple or the bakery?

How can making a cake make you feel uncomfortable?
They (apparently) held the opinion that there was something wrong with two men being married (or together idk the details like I've said). This opinion they then used as a reason to single out and refuse to serve these people, that would be them forcing there opinion on others.
« Last Edit: Fri, 27 March 2015, 11:38:54 by baldgye »

Offline heedpantsnow

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Re: gaydar tech and religious laws
« Reply #56 on: Fri, 27 March 2015, 11:37:49 »

I knew they were going to be Christian... haha as always upholding Christian values hahaha!

I thought this was an anti-bigotry thread.
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Offline baldgye

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Re: gaydar tech and religious laws
« Reply #57 on: Fri, 27 March 2015, 11:40:36 »

I knew they were going to be Christian... haha as always upholding Christian values hahaha!

I thought this was an anti-bigotry thread.

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Offline nubbinator

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Re: gaydar tech and religious laws
« Reply #58 on: Fri, 27 March 2015, 11:44:31 »
Business owners should be able to do business with whomever they want. If they don't want to serve Christians, or gays, or whites, that's fine.

If that is the way a business owner feels, then they either need to get with the times, or move somewhere that practice is legal.

I hear Tunisia, Somalia, and Afghanistan are pleasant places to do business if you like to be able to discriminate on religion, gender, and color.
Tunisia, really? Have you just randomly picked a country with brown people?

Check the news bro.  Tunisia is all kinds of fun right now.  If you want, I can add Venezuela, Russia, Saudi Arabia, and some Asian countries to the list.  I was picking war torn places where the war is based around those kinds of radical hatred you see increasingly in some of the radical Christians in the mid-Eest.  It doesn't hurt that two of the countries are places where there has been a history of abuse and even murder and war based on differences of belief and oppression based upon gender and sexuality.

And heedpantsnow, I want telling you to GTFO, I was saying there's no place for that kind of oppression in civil society and giving absurd examples of places where that might be acceptable.  Religious beliefs are to be internalized, there are not to be foisted on others.  The law in question is one of bigoted belief by a group of people who pick and choose what to believe and what to take literally from the Bible, forgetting that Jesus hung out with tax collectors, prostitutes, lepers, and so on.  He hung out with the lowest if the low, the worst of the worst and didn't judge.  He even forgave the one who would betray him before he did so.  It's people like that that made me agnostic.

I also disagree with your political logic, but that's something that could go all day.

Offline iri

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Re: gaydar tech and religious laws
« Reply #59 on: Fri, 27 March 2015, 11:54:45 »
Check the news bro.  Tunisia is all kinds of fun right now.  If you want, I can add Venezuela, Russia, Saudi Arabia, and some Asian countries to the list.  I was picking war torn places where the war is based around those kinds of radical hatred you see increasingly in some of the radical Christians in the mid-Eest.
Ah, it's because of the terrorist attacks. You can surely add Russia to the list. Or France. It has a problem with hateful muslim terrorists too.
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Offline vivalarevolución

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Re: gaydar tech and religious laws
« Reply #60 on: Fri, 27 March 2015, 12:08:02 »
Hey guys.  I work for the Indiana state government, and write regulations.  I live the neighborhood of the cake bakery business where this all got started.  I've looked at the law multiple times and have my interpretations.   I routinely write the governor emails about all the dumb stuff that he does and says.  I have more to say and I'll violate my writing tip #1.  Be back later.
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Offline vivalarevolución

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Re: gaydar tech and religious laws
« Reply #61 on: Fri, 27 March 2015, 21:37:03 »
So here is a rant filled with my amateur legal opinions.

To understand this law and the people that passed, you should understand a little bit about the Indiana state legislature.  First of all, they don't represent every citizen.  Next, I consider Indiana to be a one-party state at this point.  Even the Democrats have to be Conservative Light in order to elected to state-wide office.  The Republicans have gerrymandered the districts so effectively, that they basically guaranteed themselves control the legislature indefinitely.  Now that they don't have to worry about actually listening to the people because they always will run the state, they basically sell out to the corporations.  And this legislature is overwhelming old, white, Christian men and women that mainly represent conservative suburbs, smalls towns, and rural areas.

The majority of voters in Indiana is not actually Republicans; they are majority apathetic.  Rarely you will ever have a majority of the voting population actually go the polls in the election.  In the mid-term elections last November, Indiana had the lowest voter turnout IN THE COUNTRY.  So most of the population doesn't give two sh!ts because they feel voting is meaningless, and the minority of the population that goes to the polls most votes Republican, except for the people in Indianapolis, northwest Indiana near Chicago, the college towns, and maybe a couple other places.  But remember that most of us Hoosiers don't give a sh!t because we feel that we are getting screwed regardless of who runs the show.

This is just a sample of the incredibly dumb nonsense that is introduced into the legislature every year.  Now this frickin law.  Nowhere does it say anything about discriminating against the LBGT community.  But there are many religions that do not accept people in the LGBT community, and the law says that "a governmental entity may not substantially burden a person's exercise of religion, even if the burden results from a rule of general applicability."  So a person can exercise their religion freely.  Sounds good, right?  But not if the exercise of religious is discriminatory in a public arena.

To summarize some of the important legalese in the law, the religious person becomes a protected class and the government entity must prove that they can only burden a person's exercise of religion if the burden is in furtherance of a compelling governmental interest and is the least restrictive was of furthering that compelling governmental interest.

Translation:  a person can do whatever the f*ck they want to exercise their religion unless the governmental entity can prove that restricting their practice of religion is conflicting with compelling government interest, whatever that means.  This law basically establishes a protected class that is allowed to discriminate on the basis their religious beliefs, and the burden is on others to prove that they are discriminatory, rather than the burden on the discriminating person.  F*ck. This. Sh!t.  Then the law has more stuff about handing out freebies to the religious person if it is found that the governmental entity did not demonstrating they rightfully burdened a person's exercise of religion.

In an ideal world, one of the purposes of government is to protect the individual against the tyranny of the majority, the minority, and any other group.  On the surface, it looks like this law is protecting a person that simply wishes to exercise their religious beliefs.  Implicitly, as many news organizations have stated, this law protects a group that wishes to discriminate against one of the protected classes (race, color, gender, sexual orientation, etc), in the name of religious.  So I can start a religion tomorrow with a couple of my buddies, say that doing business with redheads is against our religion, and now the plaintiff and a government entity have to prove that they can substantially burden my exercise of religion only if the burden to me is in furtherance of a compelling governmental interest.  What exactly is a compelling governmental interest, the courts will figure that out.

What's gonna happen is that affected parties will take this nonsense to the courts, and hopefully the courts will overturn this on a basis of a violation of some civil rights laws.  This language looks so legally flimsy, that I can't see it holding up.  We'll see.  Now if a real lawyer wants to swoop in and tell me I'm wrong, go ahead, because I probably am wrong about some things.

I would like to start on a new religion here in Indiana and just start hating on all kinds of people because this law will protect me until I'm messing with "the furtherance of a compelling governmental interest."  These 150 people in our legislature do not represent all Indiana residents.  The city government of Indianapolis, many, many businesses, and nearly everyone I know have already spoken their opposition to this law. 

This whole things represents a total lack of acceptance for the diversity of humanity that populate this city, state, and planet.  Now you can say that opponents of the law are not being accepting of different religious beliefs.  But your religious beliefs systematically discriminate against a class of people in a public arena for some bullsh!t reason, I have plenty of reason to not like this individual and their religious beliefs.
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Re: gaydar tech and religious laws
« Reply #62 on: Fri, 27 March 2015, 21:54:42 »

To summarize some of the important legalese in the law, the religious person becomes a protected class and the government entity must prove that they can only burden a person's exercise of religion if the burden is in furtherance of a compelling governmental interest and is the least restrictive was of furthering that compelling governmental interest.


the religious person becomes a protected class

So what about the Muslim religious persons who carry out Sharia Law?
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Offline Melvang

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Re: gaydar tech and religious laws
« Reply #63 on: Fri, 27 March 2015, 22:07:30 »

To summarize some of the important legalese in the law, the religious person becomes a protected class and the government entity must prove that they can only burden a person's exercise of religion if the burden is in furtherance of a compelling governmental interest and is the least restrictive was of furthering that compelling governmental interest.


the religious person becomes a protected class

So what about the Muslim religious persons who carry out Sharia Law?

Some mayor down in texas just shot that down hard.
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Offline vivalarevolución

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Re: gaydar tech and religious laws
« Reply #64 on: Sat, 28 March 2015, 06:50:13 »

To summarize some of the important legalese in the law, the religious person becomes a protected class and the government entity must prove that they can only burden a person's exercise of religion if the burden is in furtherance of a compelling governmental interest and is the least restrictive was of furthering that compelling governmental interest.


the religious person becomes a protected class

So what about the Muslim religious persons who carry out Sharia Law?


Basically this:

Sec. 8. (b) A governmental entity may substantially burden a person's
exercise of religion only if the governmental entity demonstrates
that application of the burden to the person:
(1) is in furtherance of a compelling governmental interest;
and
(2) is the least restrictive means of furthering that compelling
governmental interest.



So what "compelling governmental interest" would Sharia Law be in conflict with?  How about protecting basically individual rights, like a right to not being killed, raped, forced to obey a religion, speak out against a religion?  The way I read it, now the governmental entity or affected person has to prove that you cannot kill people in the name of religion, rather than that simply not being allowed to kill people, period?

The way I read it (and I'm no lawyer), a person now have to prove that they are being discriminated against by another person exercising a religion.  So the religious person has the right to discriminate so they can exercise their religion, unless the affected person can prove the discrimination is conflicting with a "compelling governmental interest," like civil or individual rights.

Now there might be a higher authority in the Indiana Code that guarantees basic individual rights before a person has to prove that the exercise of religion is infringing on their individual rights.   But they effectively made the Indiana Code website so burdensome to navigate last year (giant PDFs rather than html language), that I don't bother much anymore.

Here is how the law describes exercise of religion, just for fun:

Sec. 5. As used in this chapter, "exercise of religion" includes
any exercise of religion, whether or not compelled by, or central to,
a system of religious belief.


Like I said, if anyone else would like to establish of system of religious belief and go hog wild, let me know.
« Last Edit: Sat, 28 March 2015, 06:53:02 by prdlm2009 »
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Offline vivalarevolución

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Re: gaydar tech and religious laws
« Reply #65 on: Sat, 28 March 2015, 07:07:41 »
I write regulations, not laws (there is a difference), but I have learned a few things.  First of all, lawyers over complicated laws and regulations when they write them, so only they can understand the laws and help out their lawyer friends by requiring a business to pay legal fees in order to understand the laws.  Second, lawyers focus more on using that law degree than making the law clear, understandable, fair, and accurate.   

If the legislators wanted to write this law so it wouldn't seem like license to discriminate on the basis of their religion, they have included a section that says:

Sec. X.  A person's exercise of religion does not allow that person to substantially burden another person's [reference to laws concerning individual rights]. 

Perhaps some part of the Indiana Code already has those protections for individual rights.  But the  way I read this, the exercise of religion is above individual rights in Indiana, unless the affected person can prove the exercise of religion is in conflict with a "compelling governmental interest."
While the freedom to exercise religion is an important protection, it should not be above the freedom to, you know, BE TREATED LIKE A FRICKIN HUMAN BEING.
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Offline paicrai

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Re: gaydar tech and religious laws
« Reply #66 on: Sat, 28 March 2015, 07:17:03 »
I Write Regulations, Not Laws - Panic! at The Forum
THE FEMINIST ILLUMINATI

I will literally **** you raw paicrai, I hope you're legal by the time I meet you.
👌👀👌👀👌👀👌👀👌👀 good **** go౦ԁ ****👌 thats ✔ some good👌👌**** right👌👌th 👌 ere👌👌👌 right✔there ✔✔if i do ƽaү so my self 💯  i say so 💯  thats what im talking about right there right there (chorus: ʳᶦᵍʰᵗ ᵗʰᵉʳᵉ) mMMMMᎷМ💯 👌👌 👌НO0ОଠOOOOOОଠଠOoooᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒ👌 👌👌 👌 💯 👌 👀 👀 👀 👌👌Good ****

Offline davkol

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Re: gaydar tech and religious laws
« Reply #67 on: Sat, 28 March 2015, 08:25:18 »
I'm a lesbian prostitute. If I refuse to do business with a heterosexual guy, am I a bigot?

Offline paicrai

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Re: gaydar tech and religious laws
« Reply #68 on: Sat, 28 March 2015, 08:35:13 »
lol
THE FEMINIST ILLUMINATI

I will literally **** you raw paicrai, I hope you're legal by the time I meet you.
👌👀👌👀👌👀👌👀👌👀 good **** go౦ԁ ****👌 thats ✔ some good👌👌**** right👌👌th 👌 ere👌👌👌 right✔there ✔✔if i do ƽaү so my self 💯  i say so 💯  thats what im talking about right there right there (chorus: ʳᶦᵍʰᵗ ᵗʰᵉʳᵉ) mMMMMᎷМ💯 👌👌 👌НO0ОଠOOOOOОଠଠOoooᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒ👌 👌👌 👌 💯 👌 👀 👀 👀 👌👌Good ****

Offline JinDesu

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Re: gaydar tech and religious laws
« Reply #69 on: Sat, 28 March 2015, 09:05:31 »
I'll bet the compelling goverment interest refers to taxes/fines.
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Offline vivalarevolución

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Re: gaydar tech and religious laws
« Reply #70 on: Sat, 28 March 2015, 09:06:58 »
I'm a lesbian prostitute. If I refuse to do business with a heterosexual guy, am I a bigot?

You could be a bigot but that has nothing to do with laws.  That's just an title.

In the state of Indiana now, if you are exercising your religious beliefs, you are fine unless the government entity can burden your exercise of religion in the furtherance of a compelling government interest.
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Offline davkol

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Re: gaydar tech and religious laws
« Reply #71 on: Sat, 28 March 2015, 09:22:59 »
Aha, I've missed your explanation for the OP. My question was more geared towards the discussion early in this thread. I guess there could be an analogous example with religion instead of sexual orientation.

Offline jacobolus

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Re: gaydar tech and religious laws
« Reply #72 on: Sat, 28 March 2015, 12:26:03 »
I'm a lesbian prostitute. If I refuse to do business with a heterosexual guy, am I a bigot?
In the state of Indiana now, if you are exercising your religious beliefs, you are fine unless the government entity can burden your exercise of religion in the furtherance of a compelling government interest.
Prostitution is illegal in Indiana. So you’re fine refusing whoever you want, but as soon as you do some business, you’re breaking the law.

Offline davkol

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Re: gaydar tech and religious laws
« Reply #73 on: Sat, 28 March 2015, 12:37:29 »
Thanks for completely missing the point. Meanwhile, baldgye is in the UK and Melvang is apparently calling me a disgusting bigot.

Offline jacobolus

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Re: gaydar tech and religious laws
« Reply #74 on: Sat, 28 March 2015, 12:59:37 »
Thanks for completely missing the point.
Your hypothetical example of a lesbian prostitute refusing to service a straight man is basically 100% irrelevant; you set up an absurd example for rhetorical effect. I hardly think it deserves to be called a “point”.
« Last Edit: Sat, 28 March 2015, 13:03:06 by jacobolus »

Offline davkol

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Re: gaydar tech and religious laws
« Reply #75 on: Sat, 28 March 2015, 13:15:51 »
Still way more relevant than the objection that prostitution is illegal there. Prostitution exists regardless of current laws, and it's a business practically by definition.

Offline jacobolus

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Re: gaydar tech and religious laws
« Reply #76 on: Sat, 28 March 2015, 13:25:47 »
How many lesbian prostitutes do you know? How many do you think there are? How many of them get to pick and choose among potential customers (note that most prostitutes worldwide are in fairly threatened/desperate situations)? How many of those have to deal with straight men requesting services without any filter before the men get that far?

Among people who support prostitution at all, how many of them think that a prostitute should be forced to accept any potential client?

Selling sex and selling cakes are fundamentally different, and trying to make an analogy between the two is IMO ridiculous. I can come up with any number of similarly absurd cases. For instance, imagine I’m a rich retired guy, and I give money to religious charities; if a charity run by a satanist cult comes and asks me for money, would I be a bigot to refuse them? Or imagine I’m a Republican governor, and I take bribes from people who I plan to support politically; if I refuse to take bribes from a gay rights group in return for political favors, would that make me a bigot? Should we keep playing this game?

(Also note: the whole context of this discussion is Indiana law.)
« Last Edit: Sat, 28 March 2015, 13:33:23 by jacobolus »

Offline kurplop

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Re: gaydar tech and religious laws
« Reply #77 on: Sun, 29 March 2015, 00:04:06 »
While I have strong personal convictions about the balance between liberty for one and government protection for another,  I've observed that both sides of most arguments try to employ a reductio ad absurdum as their most convincing ploy to win support for their position. The problem is that, after the smoke settles and real communication succeeds, the real disagreement between sides is often one of proportion. I'd like to offer an example from my recent experience.

Last month I spent 2 days in voir dire, as attorneys attempted to find agreeable jurors for their case.   A man was suing a local Mexican restaurant for not giving him the 2 dollar discount for a ladies drink on "Señorita Night". No I'm not kidding. He was suing for an undisclosed amount for gender discrimination. Because of this, me and 50+ others from the jury pool missed 2 days of earnings, a courtroom was tied up for 8 days, judges , bailiffs, court recorders and other staffers were unable to move other cases through the system and many of us saw just how broken the courts are. I estimate at least $100,000 in lost wages or wasted public resources, not to mention attorney fees. All for $2.

Most of us have a sense of gender fairness, equal wages for equal work, etcetera. It's displays like this however, that tend to make a mockery of the real intent of the laws. These extreme actions polarize people, splitting them up into adversarial camps when most of them weren't that far apart initially. I repeat, I have seen plenty of examples of this kind of travesty coming from my own camp as well as from those I don't share the same convictions with.  I could go on but this is a very bright audience that can connect the dots.

I will say that effective communication listens carefully, especially to the opposing view, putting everything on the table and  being ready to modify long held convictions if honesty demands it.

« Last Edit: Sun, 29 March 2015, 07:24:51 by kurplop »

Offline slip84

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Re: gaydar tech and religious laws
« Reply #78 on: Sun, 29 March 2015, 00:06:48 »
Their support signs uses the Papyrus font... I think that says enough about how dumb this is.