Earliest buckling spring keyboard?

[bhtooefr]

Trying to figure out what it is...

The patent was filed August 30, 1977, and was granted October 3, 1978. If that helps any.

I'm 99% sure that the first BS keyboard was used on something in the 3270 or 5250 family.

If it was first used on the 5250 line, it'll be on the 5251, the first of the line. The 5251 came out in April, 1977, but there's a time that the inventor can wait to file the patent - I want to say that it's a year.

If it was used on the 3270, then... the 3277 or 3278 will be the first with it, because the 3275 was too early - there's at least one example from 1974. And, come to think of it, the 3277 might be too early, too - I found a patent describing something else that was filed January 1976, that mentioned a 3277.

Edit: Of course, I could be completely wrong, and it be something like the Electronic Typewriter (aka Selectronic, which, along with the Wheelwriter, uses a "Selectric Touch Keyboard" - read: buckling spring.) But I'm not sure - release dates for this stuff are a pain to find.

[bhtooefr]

Found a reference to the 3277 coming out in 1971, so it can't be that.

Electronic Typewriter came out in 1978 - too late, there were BS keyboards in 1977, at least.

Looks like it'll either be the 5251 or the 3278.

Edit: The 3278 was announced on May 18, 1977. The reference I've got to the 5251 having come out in April 1977 means it was first, but I need to confirm that.

Edit 2: The System/34 was definitely announced in April, 1977, and it looks like the only terminal^Wdisplay station compatible with it when it came out was the 5251, so that'll be it. Off to find a 5251's keyboard.

[Waves77]

We have an old Selectric typewriter at work believe it or not...

I don't know if all models are the same, but for me it hasn't got the slightest resemblance to buckling springs.... strange since they are often mentioned as the inspiration for the model M boards

[bhtooefr]

Keep in mind, the Model M feels different from the Model F. If it's possible for a keyboard to feel more solid than a Model M...

And, I've found sources for both 5251 keyboards (reasonably cheaply - under $55) and 3278 keyboards (about the same price, after shipping.) So, I just have to verify the 5251's is BS. If not, I'll go get a 3278 keyboard (which I'm 99% sure is BS.)

Of course, I may have found a cheap, decent Correcting Selectric II, as well...

[bhtooefr]

I'll note that now that I've typed on this Selectric... the feel is different, but better.

It does have a similar force curve to a BS keyboard, with one difference - BS feels like it builds up to the buckling point, whereas this just goes linearly. The buckle isn't as sharp, either, but it's still OK. (And, it doesn't need noise from the keys to make a lot of noise. )

[xsphat]

What is it with you and typewriters? Do you actually use them, collect them, planning a mod project or what? When I first started writing, I got a WWII era Remington which was just a beast. I had it for years after I was done with it, but decided to get rid of it because I got sick of moving with it.

[bhtooefr]

I use them some, play around with them... I'll note that I'm done buying typewriters for quite a while, though - all I really wanted was a manual and a Selectric, and now I have that.

Also, typing labels and envelopes is sometimes easier on a typewriter - printers can be annoying for that. And, filling out forms... with my handwriting, the Selectric with a 12-pitch ball... perfect.

[lowpoly]

IBM had a wonderful ad for typewriters here in Germany, printed on two magazine pages ('Schreibmaschinen' is german for 'typewriters'):



(link, in german)

[bhtooefr]

Bumping an old thread... I just got confirmation from someone that has a 3278 keyboard that it is buckling spring, now all I need to know is the 5251...

[qk6339zmdm]

Thanks for the information!  It's good to know that before the Model M, IBM used buckling springs.  The buckling spring history wouldn't be complete without mentioning the Selectric, 5251 and 3278.  As great as the Model M is, it had industrial strength predecessors, that I would agree, felt even better.

You mentioned a source of 5251s and 3278s for around $55, please tell us where!

[lowpoly]

The Selectric had buckling springs?

[bhtooefr]

The Selectric did not use buckling springs, although the IBM Electronic Typewriter, which used the Selectric type ball, did. The point of buckling spring was to provide a typing experience similar to that of the Selectric.

Anyway, it looks like prices have gone up on 5251 boards, but just google 7362149 or 7361073 for the 5251 board, and here's a 3278 board on eBay. (I just googled IBM 5251 keyboard to find those part numbers, and IBM 3278 keyboard to find that.)

[Qwertyuiop]

I'm probably older than you young whippersnappers but I used Selectrics in college and at jobs, and I also did programming using 3278 and 3279 terminals.

I always wanted a Selectric and wish I'd bought one when they were still available. Instead, by the time I could afford one in the mid 1980s, I stupidly bought an IBM Quietwriter instead. If I recall I could've still got a Selectric then, maybe. The Quietwriter had some plastic part in the platen paper hold-down that eventually broke and I finally sold it. Had I bought a Selectric instead I'd have kept that and still have it now. I too would use it for envelopes and such. I still want one but I can't bring myself to buy used keyboards or typewriters.

[ch_123]

According to this guy the 3278 keyboard was made out of cast iron. Impressive...

[ch_123]

Bumping an old thread... I just got confirmation from someone that has a 3278 keyboard that it is buckling spring, now all I need to know is the 5251...

This has now been disproved here.

All that remains is a family of rather similar looking keyboards made by IBM between the late 1970s and early 1980s -

IBM 5251 -



IBM 3101 -



IBM Displaywriter -



Alternatively, there simply may not have been any BS keyboards before the trusty Model F reared it's ugly head on the System/23 datamaster -

[skriefal]

To those outside of the keyboard "elite", the term "buckling spring" has taken on a generic meaning akin to kleenex, xerox, etc.  They use it (mistakenly) as a generic term to refer to any mechanical keyboard.

[ch_123]

Could be the early patent was never implemented.  Happens all the time.

That first Model F looks awesome.  Unusable but awesome nonetheless.

The engineers who worked on the PC had also designed the Datamaster, and wanted the latter's keyboard used on the PC. IBM management almost succeeded in getting the original PC shipped out with some cheapo keyboard. However, one or more of the engineers stood their ground and managed to convince them that this would be a mistake and would give the impression of a low quality product to IBM's business customers.

God only knows where us lot would be if it weren't for those brave souls =P

To those outside of the keyboard "elite", the term "buckling spring" has taken on a generic meaning akin to kleenex, xerox, etc. They use it (mistakenly) as a generic term to refer to any mechanical keyboard.

Definitely. That's what I thought when I read that about those supposed BS NeXT boards.

[quadibloc]

IBM management almost succeeded in getting the original PC shipped out with some cheapo keyboard. However, one or more of the engineers stood their ground and managed to convince them that this would be a mistake and would give the impression of a low quality product to IBM's business customers.

God only knows where us lot would be if it weren't for those brave souls =P

Not only wouldn't we have Model M keyboards available in large numbers...

the IBM PC might not have been successful. So Microsoft would just be a company that sells BASIC interpreters. We would be using computers with 68000-derived microprocessors... and keyboards with Cherry switches in some cases, when we're lucky. Keyboards whose design was based on ASCII terminals, not IBM typewriters. (But they would likely still be typewriter-pairing instead of bit-pairing.)

And would the keyboard even be detachable from the computer?

[ch_123]

It's almost inconceivable these days that a keyboard could make that difference, but I remember reading a comparative review from the early 80s between the IBM and the equivalent Compaq, where the reviewer commented that half of the reason why someone should spend the extra money (a figure in the thousands of dollars) on the IBM was because of it's keyboard...

I'd say without MS and x86, we'd probably all be running Unix (and ironically probably less sophisticated variant considering that MS' Xenix had a great influence on BSD and Sys V) on Alpha or MIPS... Although PCs would be much less ubiquitous, that's for sure. Who knows, maybe companies would have realized the need for standardization sooner or later?

[quadibloc]

The Selectric did not use buckling springs, although the IBM Electronic Typewriter, which used the Selectric type ball, did.

When I saw that post, I had thought that this couldn't possibly be right; the IBM Electronic Typewriter used a daisywheel! But I see I was wrong; that was the Wheelwriter, and there was also the ink-jet Quietwriter. The proportional-spacing model 50, and the later model 65 and 85, that used the same 96-character golfball as the Selectric III, were indeed models of the IBM Electronic Typewriter... I remembered some of the model numbers, but not the name of the product.

There were electronic typing devices, such as the Memory Typewriter and the various Mag Card Typewriters, that used a Selectric type ball, but they were expensive devices that were used in major offices.

Thus, the White House had a Mag Card Executive, which used special type balls with a daisywheel-like proportional font in 1/60 inch increments, not to be confused with the Selectric Composer, which had a different type ball and keyboard arrangement, and which used typesetting fonts in three increments, 1/72", 1/84", and 1/96".

The only consumer electronic typewriter that used the 88-character Selectric type ball was made by Silver Reed.

[quadibloc]

God only knows where us lot would be if it weren't for those brave souls =P

It occurs to me that my initial reaction, that if not for them, the IBM PC would have failed, was likely wrong. After all, for most users of the IBM PC, the badly flawed layout of the original keyboard far outweighed the good tactile properties it had.

So if it had come out with a rubber dome keyboard, but with the 101-key layout, it would have had a better keyboard from the view of most users.

However, it's unlikely that could have happened. Instead, it would have been a choice between the PC layout in buckling spring, or the PC layout in rubber dome.

An interesting case study might be the PCjr. People said the keys were spaced too close together, and their feel was horrible; then, when the "Chiclet" (a trademark of Adams Brands) keys were replaced by full size keycaps - without a change in the key spacing, which had been the standard 3/4" all along - and without, as far as I could tell, a change in the feel of the keyboard, columnists raved about how the keyboard was fixed in all these respects.

I think it is true, to some extent, that the buckling spring keyboard on the original PC did give it the appearance of a quality product, even if the arrangement of keys was a nuisance. But the evidence about how much that would have mattered is very mixed, and it is not clear it would have mattered very much.