What makes the HHKB professional 2 layout so sought after? + HHKB questions

[illitirit]

So my curiosity regarding Topre switches has been in full bloom for the past few days.  I keep listening to sound clips of topre boards and its just like..........i cant get it out of my mind.  I have been dreaming of it at night.


So, it seems like the HHKB pro 2 is the mass majority favorite here at geekhack.  I was just wondering why is that?

I always hear its because of the layout.  Its because the control key is where caps lock key is? 


On the subject of Topre boards, I think I am going to buy one.  However I think that I would like 55g more than 45g.  Is there a Topre switch higher than 55g?

I am an avid cherry mx green user so I hope there is something stronger than 55g.

Is there a wide selection of keycap sets available for topre?

Is the HHKB customizable  enough for case swaps?  I would like to see a low profile case on an HHKB, has it been done?

[illitirit]

I just found out that the only 55g uniform topre board is the realforce.  Is this true?  Does HHKB not have a 55g version?

[septamber]

I think what most people end up doing is buying a donor RealForce 55g and swapping the domes into a HHKB. It's pretty pricey though.

[daerid]

So my curiosity regarding Topre switches has been in full bloom for the past few days.  I keep listening to sound clips of topre boards and its just like..........i cant get it out of my mind.  I have been dreaming of it at night.


So, it seems like the HHKB pro 2 is the mass majority favorite here at geekhack.  I was just wondering why is that?

Not entirely sure.

I always hear its because of the layout.  Its because the control key is where caps lock key is? 

Probably not. Swapping Caps / Control is pretty trivial these days, and a lot of boards offer a DIP switch on the back of the board to allow the swap at the hardware level.

On the subject of Topre boards, I think I am going to buy one.  However I think that I would like 55g more than 45g.  Is there a Topre switch higher than 55g?

I am an avid cherry mx green user so I hope there is something stronger than 55g.

AFAIK no, 55g is the heaviest.

Is there a wide selection of keycap sets available for topre?

No. Pretty much the only supplier is EliteKeyboards, and they tend to get restocked very infrequently.

Is the HHKB customizable  enough for case swaps?  I would like to see a low profile case on an HHKB, has it been done?

This is extremely difficult, due to the fact that the case is actually part of the switching mechanism (the Topre sliders fit directly into the top part of the case). I suppose you could do a low profile case, but you'd have to get it just right, and it would have to be completely custom from the ground up.

I just found out that the only 55g uniform topre board is the realforce.  Is this true?  Does HHKB not have a 55g version?

Yes.
No, no 55g HHKB stock (as mentioned by septamber you can mod one though).

[illitirit]

thanks for all the answers daerid.


I was just additionally wondering why the realforce is the only KB with 55g topres?  Do realforce and topre have an agreement of some kind?




I would love a HHKB size KB / layout with 55g topre but there is no way im buying two keyboards, thats like 550$ USD right there.

So i guess if I want the 55g switches, the ONLY option is the realforce 87u uniform 55g?

I am prepared to pay the price.  Im just not a big fan of how the realforce 87u looks.  The top part of the keyboard has that huge bezel.

[Ludovician]

I was just additionally wondering why the realforce is the only KB with 55g topres?  Do realforce and topre have an agreement of some kind?

The Realforce is produced by Topre themselves, it isn't a separate brand.

There are very few varieties of Topre boards around, so that's probably why the RF is the only option for 55g domes unless you go with a knockoff like the Royal Kludge. I don't know how well those compare to legit Topre, though.

I suggest getting a RF 55g, though. The 55g Topre is amazing.

[KeypressGraphics]

Feels to me like the benefits of the HHKB layout aside from the Control position is the Backspace being just above Return via a dip switch, the easy to reach arrow keys in the FN layer, and ALT being switchable to its 'traditional' position next to the spacebar via a dip switch. The position of the FN key itself is also really intuitive and easy to reach without looking.

The layout has really grown on me and I've used KeyTweak to map the tilde key to Delete natively so I don't have to press FN+tilde to activate it, which suits me better.

[Special K]

Is there a wide selection of keycap sets available for topre?

No. Pretty much the only supplier is EliteKeyboards, and they tend to get restocked very infrequently.

There is also the seller widebasket on ebay that carries full sets of topre custom keycaps, but they are pretty expensive.  In general your custom keycap options with topre will be extremely limited.

[spiceBar]

...
So, it seems like the HHKB pro 2 is the mass majority favorite here at geekhack.  I was just wondering why is that?
...

It's definitely not the case.

Some HHKB owners are quite vocal about it, but it's nowhere near a majority.

You will find, for example, much more people owning a TKL or a Poker.

You will hear about people who love the HHKB layout and who try to use it on other keyboards as well. They post often.

You will also read about people who tried the HHKB and then had to resell it because they don't like the layout. They don't post anymore about the HHKB... So in the end it's natural that you hear mostly positive things about it, but is it a fair picture?

[rsadek]

...
So, it seems like the HHKB pro 2 is the mass majority favorite here at geekhack.  I was just wondering why is that?
...

It's definitely not the case.

Some HHKB owners are quite vocal about it, but it's nowhere near a majority.

You will find, for example, much more people owning a TKL or a Poker.

You will hear about people who love the HHKB layout and who try to use it on other keyboards as well. They post often.

You will also read about people who tried the HHKB and then had to resell it because they don't like the layout. They don't post anymore about the HHKB... So in the end it's natural that you hear mostly positive things about it, but is it a fair picture?

If I understand correctly the OP meant that among topre boards the hhkb has the most support, as opposed to other topre boards.

[spiceBar]

...
So, it seems like the HHKB pro 2 is the mass majority favorite here at geekhack.  I was just wondering why is that?
...

It's definitely not the case.

Some HHKB owners are quite vocal about it, but it's nowhere near a majority.

You will find, for example, much more people owning a TKL or a Poker.

You will hear about people who love the HHKB layout and who try to use it on other keyboards as well. They post often.

You will also read about people who tried the HHKB and then had to resell it because they don't like the layout. They don't post anymore about the HHKB... So in the end it's natural that you hear mostly positive things about it, but is it a fair picture?

If I understand correctly the OP meant that among topre boards the hhkb has the most support, as opposed to other topre boards.

I don't think this is even the case.

From what I read, I think the Realforces are the most popular Topre boards.

[Stabilized]

FWIW I was one of those people who never liked the HHKB layout as it was. I think I would have liked it if it was fully programmable, but I didn't like the positioning of backspace and control (a couple of things that everyone else seems to like), they would screw up my Karabiner settings.
My favourite Topre keyboard is definitely the FC660C (printed version) in terms of typing feel and layout (but need to try dyesub version someday).
I really do like the 60% size though, but I really wish that any new version of the HHKB will be programmable out of the box and comes available in a 55g version (found that 45g with a plastic plate felt a bit mushy).

I sold my HHKB, but I think I would buy one again if Hasu ever does another controller GB, and Hypersphere gets his silencing rings perfected.

[berserkfan]

let me recommend that if you have the funds, buy like 7 sets of Topre keycaps when they become available, 1 in each colour.

You can worry about what colour you like later.

Topre keycaps can ALWAYS be resold with minimal losses.

[illitirit]

Welp i did it.  I bought a realforce 87u 55g uniform from elitekeyboards.


I have not been this excited since puberty!

[Ludovician]

You are scheduled to become one with cup rubber. Please wait patiently for your oneness. We hope you enjoy your stay.

[illitirit]

i am kind of sad that they dont have the white / grey option available right now so I purchased the black version.


I wonder how hard it would be to get the white keycaps alone?  Hopefully one day someone will sell them lol.

[TopreFan333]

As a newish HHKB user, about 2 months of light daily use, I'd say this about the layout (not getting into key feel, etc)

In the + column
- my hands are closer to the home row at all times
- I find that the FN layer arrow keys are actually closer at hand and just as quick to activate.
- having the DEL key closer to return is a little less of a reach

In the – column
- it took me quite a while to start using the arrows intuitively without looking down, and I'm still looking down to find page up/down buttons
- the relocation of the the CTRL key is fairly meaningless on a Mac, as you don't use that key anywhere near as often
- things like [CMD]+[SHIFT]+[arrow] to select text now involve pressing four keys simultaneously. it drove me insane for about a week, but now it's gotten *much* easier
- it's irritating to have to hit FN to get to the F keys and volume controls

In short, for pure typing, the HHKB layout is perfect. The layout is less practical when you get into using it for everything. For the record, though, the feel totally makes all the sacrifices worthwhile for me.

[Tiramisuu]

I think the difficulty in getting an hhkb combined with the inflated price leads people to justify the keyboard to a greater extant than they should for the price custom,  fully programmables offer far more and a poker is a better choice at 1/4 the price.

[trizkut]

I think the difficulty in getting an hhkb combined with the inflated price leads people to justify the keyboard to a greater extant than they should for the price custom,  fully programmables offer far more and a poker is a better choice at 1/4 the price.

Let me know where you can find a poker for $55

[Air tree]

I think the difficulty in getting an hhkb combined with the inflated price leads people to justify the keyboard to a greater extant than they should for the price custom,  fully programmables offer far more and a poker is a better choice at 1/4 the price.

Does the poker have the oneness of cup rubber? I didn't think so.

[TopreFan333]

I think the difficulty in getting an hhkb combined with the inflated price leads people to justify the keyboard to a greater extant than they should for the price custom,  fully programmables offer far more and a poker is a better choice at 1/4 the price.

If you prefer Cherry switches, yes. If not, no, not at all.

Also, what "difficulty" are you talking about? Because I ordered and received mine in about 3 days here in the US.

[rsadek]

As a newish HHKB user, about 2 months of light daily use, I'd say this about the layout (not getting into key feel, etc)

In the + column
- my hands are closer to the home row at all times
- I find that the FN layer arrow keys are actually closer at hand and just as quick to activate.
- having the DEL key closer to return is a little less of a reach

In the – column
- it took me quite a while to start using the arrows intuitively without looking down, and I'm still looking down to find page up/down buttons
- the relocation of the the CTRL key is fairly meaningless on a Mac, as you don't use that key anywhere near as often
- things like [CMD]+[SHIFT]+[arrow] to select text now involve pressing four keys simultaneously. it drove me insane for about a week, but now it's gotten *much* easier
- it's irritating to have to hit FN to get to the F keys and volume controls

In short, for pure typing, the HHKB layout is perfect. The layout is less practical when you get into using it for everything. For the record, though, the feel totally makes all the sacrifices worthwhile for me.

I wonder if for Mac use, the Japanese layout would be helpful. That bottom row has so many modifiers, it seems like a perfect fit. Anyone tried it?

I'm tempted to order it just to find out; but that's a pricey experiment and I don't know where I can order it anyway. Thoughts?

[TopreFan333]

I wonder if for Mac use, the Japanese layout would be helpful. That bottom row has so many modifiers, it seems like a perfect fit. Anyone tried it?

I'm tempted to order it just to find out; but that's a pricey experiment and I don't know where I can order it anyway. Thoughts?

The regular layout is a pretty good fit for a Mac in that the command and option keys are right where you want them (and are properly labelled even). Also, the volume and mute buttons work right out of the box without installing anything -- and weirdly the FN+O and FN+P keys, I believe, make the brightness on my Macbook go up and down as well.

The tiny spacebar on the JP model kind of weirds me out, but maybe the extra keys are useful.

[spiceBar]

As a newish HHKB user, about 2 months of light daily use, I'd say this about the layout (not getting into key feel, etc)

In the + column
- my hands are closer to the home row at all times
- I find that the FN layer arrow keys are actually closer at hand and just as quick to activate.
- having the DEL key closer to return is a little less of a reach

In the – column
- it took me quite a while to start using the arrows intuitively without looking down, and I'm still looking down to find page up/down buttons
- the relocation of the the CTRL key is fairly meaningless on a Mac, as you don't use that key anywhere near as often
- things like [CMD]+[SHIFT]+[arrow] to select text now involve pressing four keys simultaneously. it drove me insane for about a week, but now it's gotten *much* easier
- it's irritating to have to hit FN to get to the F keys and volume controls

In short, for pure typing, the HHKB layout is perfect. The layout is less practical when you get into using it for everything. For the record, though, the feel totally makes all the sacrifices worthwhile for me.

I wonder if for Mac use, the Japanese layout would be helpful. That bottom row has so many modifiers, it seems like a perfect fit. Anyone tried it?

I'm tempted to order it just to find out; but that's a pricey experiment and I don't know where I can order it anyway. Thoughts?

The PC has 4 or 5 modifiers: Shift, Control, Super (Windows key), Alt and AltGr (on some layout variants).

The Mac has 4 modifiers: Shift, Control, Command and Option.

So why would you need more modifier keys on a Mac???

[Sygaldry]

...
So, it seems like the HHKB pro 2 is the mass majority favorite here at geekhack.  I was just wondering why is that?
...

Some HHKB owners are quite vocal about it, but it's nowhere near a majority.

And yet not a single happy HHKB owner is half as vocal as you are about your hate of the HHKB.

Give it a rest man...

[rsadek]

.....
- things like [CMD]+[SHIFT]+[arrow] to select text now involve pressing four keys simultaneously.

The PC has 4 or 5 modifiers: Shift, Control, Super (Windows key), Alt and AltGr (on some layout variants).

The Mac has 4 modifiers: Shift, Control, Command and Option.

So why would you need more modifier keys on a Mac???

Great question! I'm glad you asked.The reason is Mac software commonly involves multiple modifiers, which can become rather cumbersome when some keys on on different layers. To to hit 3 mods and the layer plus the key, becomes challenging. I have some commands that take four mods. Meaning four mods plus function plus key, it's nearly impossible to hit these comfortably.

To work around it requires frequent tweaking in Karabiner, app preferences, and system prefs, which costs time, and is hard to keep consistent between machines.

So by having more keys some can be mapped to pairs of modifiers, reducing the reach required and the need to software/os tweaking.

[spiceBar]

.....
- things like [CMD]+[SHIFT]+[arrow] to select text now involve pressing four keys simultaneously.

The PC has 4 or 5 modifiers: Shift, Control, Super (Windows key), Alt and AltGr (on some layout variants).

The Mac has 4 modifiers: Shift, Control, Command and Option.

So why would you need more modifier keys on a Mac???

Great question! I'm glad you asked.The reason is Mac software commonly involves multiple modifiers, which can become rather cumbersome when some keys on on different layers. To to hit 3 mods and the layer plus the key, becomes challenging. I have some commands that take four mods. Meaning four mods plus function plus key, it's nearly impossible to hit these comfortably.

To work around it requires frequent tweaking in Karabiner, app preferences, and system prefs, which costs time, and is hard to keep consistent between machines.

So by having more keys some can be mapped to pairs of modifiers, reducing the reach required and the need to software/os tweaking.

I'm a Mac user and I have never felt the need to do that.

[rsadek]

.....
- things like [CMD]+[SHIFT]+[arrow] to select text now involve pressing four keys simultaneously.

The PC has 4 or 5 modifiers: Shift, Control, Super (Windows key), Alt and AltGr (on some layout variants).

The Mac has 4 modifiers: Shift, Control, Command and Option.

So why would you need more modifier keys on a Mac???

Great question! I'm glad you asked.The reason is Mac software commonly involves multiple modifiers, which can become rather cumbersome when some keys on on different layers. To to hit 3 mods and the layer plus the key, becomes challenging. I have some commands that take four mods. Meaning four mods plus function plus key, it's nearly impossible to hit these comfortably.

To work around it requires frequent tweaking in Karabiner, app preferences, and system prefs, which costs time, and is hard to keep consistent between machines.

So by having more keys some can be mapped to pairs of modifiers, reducing the reach required and the need to software/os tweaking.

I'm a Mac user and I have never felt the need to do that.

In the brief time I've been on this site, I've enjoyed seeing the myriad ways people use their keyboards. In my day to day I use a large number of small programs, automations, hot keys, etc, which make heavy use of such combos.

I sure would like to get my hands on one of those Japanese layouts if anyone has suggestions! 

[septamber]

Welp i did it.  I bought a realforce 87u 55g uniform from elitekeyboards.


I have not been this excited since puberty!

Niiiice. Update us with your thoughts! 

[illitirit]

Welp i did it.  I bought a realforce 87u 55g uniform from elitekeyboards.


I have not been this excited since puberty!

Niiiice. Update us with your thoughts! 

I def will.  The really messed up thing right now is..................i really want to buy an HHKB pro 2..........  But I already know i wont like the 45g switch vs the 55g.  Even though I have never even tried a topre switch yet.

Im thinking of saving my moneys until maybe a HHKB pro3 is announced...

is it even possible that the HHKB will come with 55g switches stock in the near future?

The HHKB just looks so beautiful to me.

Knowing myself, I already know im going to buy it and try to swap out the 55g switches from the RF to the HHKB.

I have addiction issues.  Can you believe that it has only been ~1 month since owning my first mech KB??  MY WALLET IS F***ED

[rsadek]

Welp i did it.  I bought a realforce 87u 55g uniform from elitekeyboards.


I have not been this excited since puberty!

Niiiice. Update us with your thoughts! 

I def will.  The really messed up thing right now is..................i really want to buy an HHKB pro 2..........  But I already know i wont like the 45g switch vs the 55g.  Even though I have never even tried a topre switch yet.

Im thinking of saving my moneys until maybe a HHKB pro3 is announced...

is it even possible that the HHKB will come with 55g switches stock in the near future?

The HHKB just looks so beautiful to me.

Knowing myself, I already know im going to buy it and try to swap out the 55g switches from the RF to the HHKB.

I have addiction issues.  Can you believe that it has only been ~1 month since owning my first mech KB??  MY WALLET IS F***ED

Same here! Two months in.... And madness. My wallet is destroyed.
A couple thoughts: maybe it's true you'll prefer the 55g over the 45, but stay open to the 45 be you never really know until you try.

Hhkb pro 3.... could be years out...or never happen....or be somehow less appealing than the hhkbp2.
The hhkb2 seems to keep its resale value ... So you could try it at lower risk. Or maybe a local geekhacker will loan you one. Perhaps a nearby kb meetup...
-R

[illitirit]

So my realforce 87u 55g uniform came in today from elite keyboards.  I got to say their shipping was fast as hell.  I did not expect to get the package today.  It got to me in 1 day.  I guess I do live pretty near them, about an hour away.

My first impressions of the Realforce :


Build quality is great.  However I am not a fan of no rubber on the flip feet on the back.  The keyboard does slide a bit here and there vs my KUL ES 87 which has thick rubber feet all over the place.  Does anyone sell something like a stick on rubber feet for keyboards?  I tend to push my hand into the keyboard for some reason while I am gaming.  Regular typing this does not happen.  However when I am in a heated game the board def slides around.

I do now wish that I had gotten the white version but unfortunately they were out of stock so it had to be black.  I dont regret the purchase however the keycap legends are way too dark for me.  I never look at the keyboard when I type, however on the odd times that i have to use the number row, it makes it extremely hard to use.  Maybe since im so use to a numpad, with time this issue will be moot.

Now on to the nitty gritty -- Topre switches:

I am so glad that I chose the 55g RF vs 45g HHKB.  I have never tried a topre prior to this.  The resistance on the switches to me is JUST right.  If it had been any lighter, I would have not liked it.  I have been using only cherry mx greens for a while and while I think the cherry greens are just right for me I honestly think that the 55g topre switches are about the same resistance wise, just a different feeling overall.  I am an extremely hard typist and I bottom out on every keystroke.

I am not too keen on all the metaphors and similes people use to describe the topre switches but the first second that I typed into the realforce, all I could think of was "It feels like a hyper luxurious membrane keyboard".  The aural feedback is highly pleasurable to my ears.  The tactile feedback is also extremely nice with the 55g switches. 

I kind of wish that the topre "thud" or "thonk" or whatever is used to describe its unique sound signature was a bit louder.  It might be im so used to cherry mx greens that I am thinking this.  However, it was just a thought I had.  It does not mean I dont like the sound, I absolutely love it.  I just wish the "thuds" and "thonks" were a bit louder overall.


Hopefully with time I will enjoy the keyboard even more.  I have read that alot of people who initially try the topre dont enjoy it much or dont see what all the jazz is about.  Ive only been using it for 40 minutes and I feel like I am in a whole different world vs cherry MX. 

Coming from my other keyboards, I am sad that there is no media keys on this board.  But it was remedied through software.  I use my keyboard to control volume alot so thankfully there was a solution to this.

As far as gaming, it has been a dream to game on.  The only difference I see in gaming vs my cherry mx greens is that its less annoying.  I have used both cherry and costar stablizers on cherry mx green boards and I find them both annoying as hell.  This realforce board, whatever type of stabilzers it uses are buttery smooth and just make me so happy.


The last thing is, I think I am really insane.  I have a HHKB in the cart ready to go after enjoying my first 40 minutes with topre.  I feel insane lol.

My rating:  9.5 / 10   .  Only real neg for me is the lack of rubber feet on the flippies and maybe an even smaller gripe is that I wish the thuds and thonks were a bit louder.  But I absolutely love the keyboard.  What a wonderful difference vs cherry mx. 

[TopreFan333]

The last thing is, I think I am really insane.  I have a HHKB in the cart ready to go after enjoying my first 40 minutes with topre.  I feel insane lol.

Yeah, I just bought an "inexpensive" Type Heaven keyboard for my work so I could type on a Topre board there too. The messed up thing is that prior to maybe 6 months ago, spending $100 on a keyboard would have felt like a HUGE stretch :/

[rsadek]

Yesterday I took a nap, then awoke with an epiphany: I understood the arrow key layout is exactly what I want, not a second best option. 

HHKB ordered
 

So excited!

Now, how long to wait before ordering Hasu's mod.....?

[steve.v]

So my curiosity regarding Topre switches has been in full bloom for the past few days.  I keep listening to sound clips of topre boards and its just like..........i cant get it out of my mind.  I have been dreaming of it at night.


So, it seems like the HHKB pro 2 is the mass majority favorite here at geekhack.  I was just wondering why is that?

I always hear its because of the layout.  Its because the control key is where caps lock key is? 


On the subject of Topre boards, I think I am going to buy one.  However I think that I would like 55g more than 45g.  Is there a Topre switch higher than 55g?

I am an avid cherry mx green user so I hope there is something stronger than 55g.

Is there a wide selection of keycap sets available for topre?

Is the HHKB customizable  enough for case swaps?  I would like to see a low profile case on an HHKB, has it been done?

Made in Japan

[tkim]

So my curiosity regarding Topre switches has been in full bloom for the past few days.  I keep listening to sound clips of topre boards and its just like..........i cant get it out of my mind.  I have been dreaming of it at night.


So, it seems like the HHKB pro 2 is the mass majority favorite here at geekhack.  I was just wondering why is that?

I always hear its because of the layout.  Its because the control key is where caps lock key is? 


On the subject of Topre boards, I think I am going to buy one.  However I think that I would like 55g more than 45g.  Is there a Topre switch higher than 55g?

I am an avid cherry mx green user so I hope there is something stronger than 55g.

Is there a wide selection of keycap sets available for topre?

Is the HHKB customizable  enough for case swaps?  I would like to see a low profile case on an HHKB, has it been done?

1) Layout remains unchanged since the 90's designed so that you don't have to move too far from the home row
2) Not that I am aware of, I suppose if you could find someway to get custom springs built (the one that is featured under the space bar on most Topre boards) you could add a bit of resistance to a 55g
3) Finding custom keycaps for Topre boards is a real pain. There are some printed/non-printed Dye-Sub printed keycaps from Realforce however they can cost as much as other boards. I think Bro-Caps is having a custom Topre sale on over at ctrl-alt if you are interested.
4) Due to the inherit nature of the HHKB and the way that it is case mounted there has been little discussion about custom cases albeit there is a thread on right now about somebody who may be supplying an Aluminium case in the not too distant future, try using the search on "Aluminium hhkb"

Good luck with your purchase!