Author Topic: Purchased the Leopold numpad but keys register as "regular" row 5 numbers  (Read 30311 times)

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Offline QuadGMoto

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nobee,


What OS are you using at work?

Offline nobee

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nobee,


What OS are you using at work?


Windows 7
ReΛlforce 87U (55g)   Leopold FC660C (Silenced/Lubed)   Leopold 210TP MX Red   Filco Majestouch 2 Ninja MX Brown

Offline metalliqaz

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I already posted on the vendor forum, but I'll repost here because I said I would provide an update. Gonna be contacting qtan for a return. I ordered the black MX Red.

Looks like the one I got from qtan is unfortunately printing off the wrong codes even though he said that they should be printing off the correct codes.

I'm going to have to email him for a return now. Unfortunately, I need the correct codes to work with software I use at work. A little disappointing because I did specifically asked him about this before ordering.

Here are all the keys registering from the Leopold FC210TP on Aqua's Key Test.
Show Image


I'm sure this trouble is caused by the question being lost in translation.  The difference is subtle.

Offline nobee

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I already posted on the vendor forum, but I'll repost here because I said I would provide an update. Gonna be contacting qtan for a return. I ordered the black MX Red.

Looks like the one I got from qtan is unfortunately printing off the wrong codes even though he said that they should be printing off the correct codes.

I'm going to have to email him for a return now. Unfortunately, I need the correct codes to work with software I use at work. A little disappointing because I did specifically asked him about this before ordering.

Here are all the keys registering from the Leopold 210TP on Aqua's Key Test.
Show Image


I'm sure this trouble is caused by the question being lost in translation.  The difference is subtle.

Well in any case, I just wanted to provide an update because some people on here were asking about it and wanted to know.

If he said that they should have the correct codes because they were a relatively new batch, then it looks like ordering a Leopold 210TP with the correct codes is more of a lottery. That's the part that may have been lost in translation.
« Last Edit: Mon, 14 April 2014, 23:09:46 by nobee »
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Offline Macsmasher

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this is exactly why I want a Realforce 23UB. It has a DIP switch so that you can have it act like a true NumPad. Also, it's thorprer.

My Goldtouch NumPad suffers from this exact same problem - doesn't send proper scancodes. It's incredibly frustrating.

I have a 23U. Works just like a numpad. I've tried the Filco. I didn't check it to see which keycodes it was sending. Even so, it doesn't hold a candle to the quality of the 23U. The difference is night and day. Of course, the 23U is/was 3x the price of the Filco.

Offline nobee

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this is exactly why I want a Realforce 23UB. It has a DIP switch so that you can have it act like a true NumPad. Also, it's thorprer.

My Goldtouch NumPad suffers from this exact same problem - doesn't send proper scancodes. It's incredibly frustrating.

I have a 23U. Works just like a numpad. I've tried the Filco. I didn't check it to see which keycodes it was sending. Even so, it doesn't hold a candle to the quality of the 23U. The difference is night and day. Of course, the 23U is/was 3x the price of the Filco.

I would love a 23U! Topre all the way! Too bad it's sold out in EK. :(
ReΛlforce 87U (55g)   Leopold FC660C (Silenced/Lubed)   Leopold 210TP MX Red   Filco Majestouch 2 Ninja MX Brown

Offline Bucake

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thanks alot for the update, nobee.

oscillik: the 23U uses plate-mounted switches, right? (or are topre switches always plate-mounted..?)
IBM Model F XT // Realforce 87U 55g Type-S // HHKBP2 45g Type-S // KBT Pure Pro Cherry MX Red

Offline nobee

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thanks alot for the update, nobee.

Np Bucake. FYI, qtan provided an update on this issue here: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=55219.msg1294704#msg1294704

So it looks like he did check with his supplier and they provided him with a screencap of the test indicating that the codes were correct, but they might have been made in Korea (newer batch?) whereas the one I received was made in China (older batch?).

All this to say that qtan probably has no control over which one gets shipped and if you order one, you may or may not get one with the correct codes.
ReΛlforce 87U (55g)   Leopold FC660C (Silenced/Lubed)   Leopold 210TP MX Red   Filco Majestouch 2 Ninja MX Brown

Offline Bucake

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thanks for the heads up :j

i guess i'll just hope to get lucky and bump into a way to get my hands on a 23U or/and a 'good' 210TP :x
IBM Model F XT // Realforce 87U 55g Type-S // HHKBP2 45g Type-S // KBT Pure Pro Cherry MX Red

Offline Grendel

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I already posted on the vendor forum, but I'll repost here because I said I would provide an update. Gonna be contacting qtan for a return. I ordered the black MX Red.

Looks like the one I got from qtan is unfortunately printing off the wrong codes even though he said that they should be printing off the correct codes.

I'm going to have to email him for a return now. Unfortunately, I need the correct codes to work with software I use at work. A little disappointing because I did specifically asked him about this before ordering.

Here are all the keys registering from the Leopold 210TP on Aqua's Key Test.
Show Image


Looks like NUM Lock is off. What happens if you turn it on ?
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Offline nobee

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I already posted on the vendor forum, but I'll repost here because I said I would provide an update. Gonna be contacting qtan for a return. I ordered the black MX Red.

Looks like the one I got from qtan is unfortunately printing off the wrong codes even though he said that they should be printing off the correct codes.

I'm going to have to email him for a return now. Unfortunately, I need the correct codes to work with software I use at work. A little disappointing because I did specifically asked him about this before ordering.

Here are all the keys registering from the Leopold 210TP on Aqua's Key Test.
Show Image


Looks like NUM Lock is off. What happens if you turn it on ?

Num lock was on. I toggled it on and off, but the key test doesn't highlight it for some reason. Although, it does on my Das. Turning Num lock off just turns on the arrow keys.
ReΛlforce 87U (55g)   Leopold FC660C (Silenced/Lubed)   Leopold 210TP MX Red   Filco Majestouch 2 Ninja MX Brown

Offline metalliqaz

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It keeps track of num lock internally.  That is so it is unaffected by the keyboard's NumLock. It's also why the keycodes are wrong. My firmware does the same thing when you unlink the numlock

Offline Grendel

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I already posted on the vendor forum, but I'll repost here because I said I would provide an update. Gonna be contacting qtan for a return. I ordered the black MX Red.

Looks like the one I got from qtan is unfortunately printing off the wrong codes even though he said that they should be printing off the correct codes.

I'm going to have to email him for a return now. Unfortunately, I need the correct codes to work with software I use at work. A little disappointing because I did specifically asked him about this before ordering.

Here are all the keys registering from the Leopold 210TP on Aqua's Key Test.
Show Image


Looks like NUM Lock is off. What happens if you turn it on ?

Num lock was on. I toggled it on and off, but the key test doesn't highlight it for some reason. Although, it does on my Das. Turning Num lock off just turns on the arrow keys.

Ah. It's too smart for it's own good -- NUML on/off is normally handled by the computer, a keyboard normally doesn't know or cares about its status. Looks like that pad implements what I call "Local NUML", ie. it's not passing the NUML key to the computer but keeps track of it locally. It has to send the regular number keys if its own NUML is on but the system NUML is off (in my Scorpius 32 firmware FN+NUML will turn on local NUML.) Try if it sends the "right" codes if you turn on the system wide NUML w/ your Das.

While I can see why this is implemented, I think it's problematic -- people w/ TKL boards (a likely customer group) can't easily control the system wide NUML.
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Offline QuadGMoto

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It has to send the regular number keys if its own NUML is on but the system NUML is off (in my Scorpius 32 firmware FN+NUML will turn on local NUML.)


I don't understand this. Why would the system NumLock need to be on to send the keypad number codes from a separate device?

Offline metalliqaz

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It has to send the regular number keys if its own NUML is on but the system NUML is off (in my Scorpius 32 firmware FN+NUML will turn on local NUML.)


I don't understand this. Why would the system NumLock need to be on to send the keypad number codes from a separate device?

It doesn't need to be on to send the scancodes for the number pad.  The problem is that those scancodes translate to numbers or movement keys, depending on NumLock.

So say you have a keyboard and a numberpad.  The NumLock is kept by the host PC.  Therefore you may want to make the numpad always work as numbers, no matter what the NumLock is doing on the other keyboard.

Offline esoomenona

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Run AHK, and set NumLock state to always on?

Offline QuadGMoto

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I just did a test on my dedicated Windows machine. I have a TECK, the Leopold keypad and a Logitech rubber dome attached to it. I managed to turn off the system numlock, but still get the Logitech to send number codes from the keypad. Here's the result:


61061-0


So apparently Windows can still accept keypad number codes even if the system numlock is off. So why can't the keypad just send those codes without worrying about the system numlock?

Offline QuadGMoto

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Oh! Upon rereading and testing, I get it now.


Even though Windows receives the correct codes, it gets all soopur smarrtt 'n' stufff, and translates those codes into the movement codes. Genius! NOT!  >:D

Offline metalliqaz

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Actually that's the way it's supposed to work, any other way would be insane.

Offline QuadGMoto

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Actually that's the way it's supposed to work, any other way would be insane.


It can only work well that way if there is only one keyboard connected to a computer. As can clearly be seen by this thread, when you wind up with multiple devices, such as a separate numeric keypad (or notebook computer setups), it gets out of control real fast. It's far simpler and user friendly to have each keyboard in charge of its own state.

Offline samwisekoi

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So by sending the numROW codes instead of the numPAD codes, the keypad is protecting its output from the OS.

I typically have a couple of keyboards plugged into my systems at all times, and I must admit that even with actual keypads on 104-key keyboards, it is quite simple to get the numlock state FUBAR.  This is also true with the Caps Lock key (and associated LEDs).

I'll go dink around with my Cherry numpad (PS/2) in combination with other input devices.  Dueling keypads might be entertaining.  Briefly.

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Offline False_Dmitry_II

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I agree with metalliqaz and Grendel. It should be controlled by the host system and not internally in any way. If I have more than one keyboard plugged in, even if I add something later, it will maintain whether or not all three are on or off and will act accordingly. The only weirdness is that the light itself may not be on, but if you change any everything should switch as it should.

If you're using a TKL along with one of these that does that just make sure that numlock is set to auto-on in the bios, and because you have no way of changing it this status will always be active. As long as you aren't interfering with yourself by using the redundant/unhelpful internal control everything will work as intended.

The only time something should even pretend to know anything about its own status is if its a fully programmable keyboard being run from a teensy or something and you have different layers.  Similarly using that to change numpad behavior shouldn't be done unless it is changing to something non-standard.
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Offline QuadGMoto

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The only time something should even pretend to know anything about its own status is if its a fully programmable keyboard being run from a teensy or something and you have different layers.


That's actually a strike against the OS trying to be too smart. It limits the ability of designers and end-users to come up with creative and flexible solutions to their own workflow.


The other common strike against OS overaggressiveness is the point of this very thread—using a separate numeric keypad. There are two setups where this is common: With a notebook where the keyboard does not have room for a separate number pad, and TKL keyboards. (In my case, my TECK falls into the latter category.) In both scenarios it's common for the keyboard design to include an embedded numeric keypad to make major number entry easier. For such an embedded number pad to be appropriately useful there needs to be a number lock feature (so your left hand can be on the paper to keep track of where you are).


So now you have a problem. When the number lock on the keyboard is off so you can type, and that number lock is system-wide, does that now mean the numeric keypad you've added must not be permitted to send numeric codes? That is the situation we have now.


The result is that the keyboard and keypad designers must come up with a workaround. One option is to have the number pad send the number codes for the top row numbers instead of the numeric keypad codes. But there is software that needs to perform different functions based on whether the number was typed on the keypad or the top row. One example is the music notation software I use, and I can tell you, that needs to be that way.


Another option is to toggle the systemwide number lock when passing the number code. But that can run into timing issues. There's a reason good keyboards have N-key rollover: because when things are happening fast, events can become so close that they overlap and interfere with each other. Toggling the system number lock in that situation can lead to unexpected results if the lock is still on when a second key's event is processed, which can happen with multiple devices.


You mentioned one advantage to a systemwide state: keeping the state of multiple devices in sync. But think about it. When does this make sense? When each device is different? (As in the notebook/TKL keyboard + number pad) Or when each device is the same? (As in two dedicated number pads.) If the latter, would the end user always want them in sync? Or put this way, why would the end user add a second number pad if they wanted both of them to do exactly the same thing?


Another possible reason to use a systemwide state is to simplify keyboard design. But if you think about keyboards, they always have to track the number lock state anyway to turn the LED on and off. So I don't see any technical reason to not have each keyboard track it's own state(s). Heck, it's done for caps lock.


Offline metalliqaz

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All keyboards (numpads included) are designed with the concept that they transmit SCAN CODES, not CHARACTER CODES (buttons, not text).  It is up to the host PC to interpret what the user wants to do.  Your keyboard transmits "ctrl key" + "c key", it doesn't transmit "copy to clipboard".  This is intentional.  The host PC should be the interpreter of contextual intention.  It only needs to know what buttons were pressed.  This is why the host PC keeps track of Num Lock, Caps Lock, etc.  This is the way it has to be.  It shouldn't be up to the keyboard to decide if a "c key" should mean 'c' or 'C' or 'copy' or 'interrupt'.  Same goes for Num Lock stuff.

OP's keypad doesn't work correctly.  What I meant before is that I understand what Leopold was going for.  They wanted the numberpad to be able to always send out numbers, regardless of the state of the other keyboard's numlock.  Unfortunately that workflow isn't for everyone.

Offline Grendel

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Yea, the user should be able to enable/disable this form of "improvement" to make the pad truly universal, eg. via dip-switch or Fn combo.
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Offline False_Dmitry_II

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The only time something should even pretend to know anything about its own status is if its a fully programmable keyboard being run from a teensy or something and you have different layers.


That's actually a strike against the OS trying to be too smart. It limits the ability of designers and end-users to come up with creative and flexible solutions to their own workflow.


The other common strike against OS overaggressiveness is the point of this very thread—using a separate numeric keypad. There are two setups where this is common: With a notebook where the keyboard does not have room for a separate number pad, and TKL keyboards. (In my case, my TECK falls into the latter category.) In both scenarios it's common for the keyboard design to include an embedded numeric keypad to make major number entry easier. For such an embedded number pad to be appropriately useful there needs to be a number lock feature (so your left hand can be on the paper to keep track of where you are).


So now you have a problem. When the number lock on the keyboard is off so you can type, and that number lock is system-wide, does that now mean the numeric keypad you've added must not be permitted to send numeric codes? That is the situation we have now.


The result is that the keyboard and keypad designers must come up with a workaround. One option is to have the number pad send the number codes for the top row numbers instead of the numeric keypad codes. But there is software that needs to perform different functions based on whether the number was typed on the keypad or the top row. One example is the music notation software I use, and I can tell you, that needs to be that way.


Another option is to toggle the systemwide number lock when passing the number code. But that can run into timing issues. There's a reason good keyboards have N-key rollover: because when things are happening fast, events can become so close that they overlap and interfere with each other. Toggling the system number lock in that situation can lead to unexpected results if the lock is still on when a second key's event is processed, which can happen with multiple devices.


You mentioned one advantage to a systemwide state: keeping the state of multiple devices in sync. But think about it. When does this make sense? When each device is different? (As in the notebook/TKL keyboard + number pad) Or when each device is the same? (As in two dedicated number pads.) If the latter, would the end user always want them in sync? Or put this way, why would the end user add a second number pad if they wanted both of them to do exactly the same thing?


Another possible reason to use a systemwide state is to simplify keyboard design. But if you think about keyboards, they always have to track the number lock state anyway to turn the LED on and off. So I don't see any technical reason to not have each keyboard track it's own state(s). Heck, it's done for caps lock.



The keyboard does not keep track of its status for lights. The point of the change from XT to AT is that it added bi-directional support to the protocol, and this is used for the computer to tell the idiot keyboard to turn on or off its light. This is likely why it takes a change of any LED state for a newly connected keyboard to suddenly have the correct lights enabled. The OS has always handled this since the beginning of the AT protocol. A numpad sends the same codes every time no matter what the numlock state is, that's up to the OS as well.

Since the numpad itself always sends the same codes, embedded laptop keypads within the alpha-block are a good example of when something has to keep track of its own state in order to function. If it didn't then there would be no way to type letters in those locations in the first place. It probably depends on implementation as to whether or not it would send numpad codes if something else enabled numlock on the system - it shouldn't though. What something like that should do is create and internal state AND turn on numlock for the system. If that's how it's done then an external numpad like that could indeed have numlock on and send the usual codes without interfering with the embedded numpad.
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Offline StylinGreymon

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So is there an MX keypad that operates 'properly', as in sends keypad codes?
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Offline SpAmRaY

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So is there an MX keypad that operates 'properly', as in sends keypad codes?

The G80-3700.

Offline Acknown3

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Has this been fixed on Qtan's newer models? I love this tenkeypad's form, but not the function.

Side note, it also registers the period key incorrectly:

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Offline ChillyVanilly

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I bought my Leopold numpad a while back and have the same issue.

I tried using HID Macros because it's USB device specific, and received limited success: http://www.hidmacros.eu/

My problem with HID is that it doesn't map to every possible key.

Offline daerid

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Obviously a DIY programmable 10-key is the solution

Offline ficklampa

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I should've googled (or red the description) before I ordered a leopold numpad... :( Mine don't work with numpad codes either...

http://imgur.com/rXhkbgF

http://imgur.com/XKvnPSJ

http://imgur.com/Ka9UyI2


Anyone know if the Filco numpad sends numpad codes?
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Offline daerid

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I should've googled (or red the description) before I ordered a leopold numpad... :( Mine don't work with numpad codes either...

http://imgur.com/rXhkbgF

http://imgur.com/XKvnPSJ

http://imgur.com/Ka9UyI2


Anyone know if the Filco numpad sends numpad codes?

Nope. Bought one and sold it when I found out that it sends number row codes.

Offline ficklampa

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I asked keyboardco if they had any other models that sent normal numpad codes, I got this in reply: http://www.keyboardco.com/keypad/programmable-keypad-black-usb.asp

Seems to be using Cherry ML switches...
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Offline xprongs

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Re: Purchased the Leopold numpad but keys register as "regular" row 5 numbers
« Reply #84 on: Fri, 03 October 2014, 18:53:43 »
Sorry to bring up an old thread - but does anyone own one of the new Leopold numpad? (as seen here: http://www.geekkeys.com/leopold-fc210tp-21-key-numpad-grey/). I'd really like to get one but only if it sends numpad codes.
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Offline ikonomov

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Re: Purchased the Leopold numpad but keys register as "regular" row 5 numbers
« Reply #85 on: Fri, 20 February 2015, 17:38:44 »
Sorry to bring up an old thread - but does anyone own one of the new Leopold numpad? (as seen here: http://www.geekkeys.com/leopold-fc210tp-21-key-numpad-grey/). I'd really like to get one but only if it sends numpad codes.

I just got mine and it does NOT send numpad codes.

Offline Muffin860

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I bought my Leopold numpad a while back and have the same issue.

I tried using HID Macros because it's USB device specific, and received limited success: http://www.hidmacros.eu/

My problem with HID is that it doesn't map to every possible key.

Care to share your exact code for getting this to work (or as close as you could get)? Or maybe a brief how to? I have used auto hot key before, but HID macros, (now LUA Macro) is much more dense, and their "how to" or "getting started" doesn't really help me understand it. I'm lost and could use some guidance. Thanks!
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Offline Muffin860

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I bought my Leopold numpad a while back and have the same issue.

I tried using HID Macros because it's USB device specific, and received limited success: http://www.hidmacros.eu/

My problem with HID is that it doesn't map to every possible key.

Care to share your exact code for getting this to work (or as close as you could get)? Or maybe a brief how to? I have used auto hot key before, but HID macros, (now LUA Macro) is much more dense, and their "how to" or "getting started" doesn't really help me understand it. I'm lost and could use some guidance. Thanks!

After playing around some more I got it to work, but everytime I unplug the keypad, I have to re assign the macros to the new "device" because HID renames it. Is there anyway to make that static to the device everytime I plug it in
IBM Model M