sholes and glidden and the birth of QWERTY

[wellington1869]

so I was testing out a keyboard at typeracer.com and the passage was a pretty interesting (as those random typing passages sometimes are) tidbit about early typewriter history, and I looked up the reference and learned something new.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sholes_and_Glidden_typewriter

Sholes and Glidden manufactured the first successful mass-produced typewriter in 1873, and gave birth to the QWERTY layout, which thru an amazing act of collective inertia, is still with us.

Some other things from the wikipedia article that were interesting:

• Re: the tepid initial response from the public: "Additionally, recipients of typewritten messages found the mechanical, all uppercase writing to be impersonal and even insulting."

-Some things never change; even in 1873 I guess all caps was considered 'shouting' xD

• "The new communication technologies and expanding businesses of the late 1800s, however, had created a need for expedient, legible correspondence. "

-or put another way, an army of secretaries learned to fetishize their keyboards xD

• "Prototypes were sent to professionals in various fields, including James O. Clephane, a stenographer, whose hard use destroyed multiple machines. Clephane's feedback, although "caustic", led to the development of an additional 25 to 30 prototypes, each improving upon the last."
  

-xD he would have made a great geekhacker xD  Hard use and "caustic" reviews for the hope of incremental improvement is what we do

• -in the summer of 1870, they wanted $50,000 for each typewriter?!

• -the first sholes and glidden models produced by remington looked like sewing machines (complete with foot-operated carraige return)

-because it was manufactured by the same guy who made remington's sewing machines xD

• -" Mark Twain was among the first to purchase the machine, which he termed a "curiosity breeding little joker"."

-indeed they are xD. he was the first author to submit a typewritten manuscript to his publisher.

• "By the end of 1872, the appearance and function of the typewriter had taken a form that would become standard in the industry and remained largely unchanged for the next century."

• "The configuration of typebars was such that they became jammed when keys were pressed in rapid succession"

-we still have this problem today xD  tho now the controllers are the problem xD

• The YWCA in New York offered a course to teach eight women to use the typewriter, the women called themselves "typewriters"
  

xD

• " In 1874, less than 4 percent of clerical workers in the United States were women; by 1900, the number had increased to approximately 75 percent"

-forever opening up hookup opportunities for hard up businessmen everywhere. the lowly keyboard needs to be thanked.

[msiegel]

i'll take "typebars" for 500, welly.


yes keyboards, the cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems... XD

[AndrewZorn]

Sholes and Glidden manufactured the first successful mass-produced typewriter in 1873, and gave birth to the QWERTY layout, which thru an amazing act of collective inertia, is still with us.

yes
just about the ONLY reason it is still with us

EDIT 'thru'?
you typed that, surely it is not FROM somewhere?

[wellington1869]

EDIT 'thru'?
you typed that, surely it is not FROM somewhere?

you mean the quote? "act of collective inertia" (in bold above) is the phrase from the typewriter passage on typeracer about this, from some history-of-typing book. the rest of the langauge there is mine (paraphrasing the wikipedia article). yes i type 'thru' instead of 'through' sometimes. I also (to the annoyance of many) often type 'prolly' instead of 'probably' xD

the bullet points under that tho, where i have  quote marks,  are copy/pastes from the wikipedia article i linked.

update: whoops, just noticed i hadnt bolded that phrase, i meant to. fixed.

[wellington1869]

I tried dvorak and even colmak; for a while a friend and I decided to convert; but while I think they're more logically laid out than qwerty, thing is, I also read all these reports that said that the fastest colmak/dvorak typer isnt significantly faster than the fastest qwerty typer. So then the only argument for switching was RSI related arguments - but then I've never suffered RSI from qwerty. So the two reasons to switch, eventually fizzled away, for me anyway. Even tho i do think other layouts make more sense, in practical terms, I no longer felt the need to switch.

One of the lessons i drew from that is about just how adaptable human beings are, that even given an illogical and probably inefficient layout like qwerty, our bodies and minds adapt enough to it that at a practical or functional level, once we've learned it, we do pretty much just fine.

Its not unlike with languages I think. Some language grammars are very illogical, make little sense, are inefficient. But once you grew up learning and using it, then you can make it do what you need, and the learning curve to another 'more efficient' language is much greater than any efficiencies you might ultimately obtain.  

Ie, it might make sense in terms of logic, but maybe not in terms of cost/benefit.

I guess which goes back to my argument about sticking with IE, too, lol.

[AndrewZorn]

i was saying (and was right about my suspicion) that being docked on typeracer for misspelling 'thru' would make me angry

you bolded the exact same part as i did... same sentiments?  still odd

i read the studies too, and also dont have any issues, but two main things prevailed
- facts like distance and finger repeats are not fake.  if qwerty typists are not getting proportionally faster rates according to those stats, then it is only because of how long colemak has been around (or more importantly, how long the typist has been using it)
- RSI etc happens and then does not un-happen.  i dont have it yet either, but i dont want it, and its not like i am using some pansy flexible keyboard or strange chair to avoid it... in fact, i will ultimately become faster avoiding it

i switched on a whim, thinking about it too long will probably have you ending up with "aaah forget it"
at least it would have for me

im not faster yet... i dont think... but i am probably about as fast as i was before (< 2months in)

[wellington1869]

I thought for a while you were shortening *******s to Sholes.

XD I'll have to start doing that

[wellington1869]

i switched on a whim, thinking about it too long will probably have you ending up with "aaah forget it"
at least it would have for me

im not faster yet... i dont think... but i am probably about as fast as i was before (< 2months in)

I think if I were to switch, it would be to colmak, since as I understand it, its very close to qwerty with just a few keys different.

Probably for me the biggest hurdle to switching though is really that i do tech support part time and I'm on stranger's computers all the time. It would *really* mess me up to be doing colmak at home and qwerty at work.

If I didnt have that job that requires me to get on strangers computers every day, then it would be easier for me to 'switch'.

[wellington1869]

To me, to ask a nation to switch keyboard layouts tho, is a little like asking a nation to drive on the left-hand side of the road instead of the right.
(Although thats been done).

Or to change their national railway guage. Or to switch from the english system to the metric system.

I mean, its on that order or level of change, I think.  It would require a national campaign basically.

[AndrewZorn]

yes i do fear doing that once i get home and go back to doing the same thing for a living

my two solutions:
- usb drive (that goes everywhere) (kinda have that anyway) with portable keyboard layout ... people with other OS dont get/need local tech support (i realize this is a huge generalization)
- typing with two fingers (seems to work fine when i have done it)... and you get bonus points for looking like a complete idiot.  part of the reasoning is actually seeing the keys, etc but i also realized that last time i had to use qwerty, for an extended period, that it crippled my colemak performance for almost as long afterwards.

Or to switch from the english system to the metric system.

i thought this would be a good analogy when i was talking about colemak, but then found out everyone in the group was an idiot telling me about how the metric system is for scientists because it is hard to use and more accurate because the notches are smaller, and for that reason not appropriate for large-scale stuff like building a house

but the thing about the keyboards
is i basically said its my keyboard i will do as i please, i require only ME to change
(we will see how i cope using others')

[wellington1869]

yes i do fear doing that once i get home and go back to doing the same thing for a living

my two solutions:
- usb drive (that goes everywhere) (kinda have that anyway) with portable keyboard layout ... people with other OS dont get/need local tech support (i realize this is a huge generalization)
- typing with two fingers (seems to work fine when i have done it)... and you get bonus points for looking like a complete idiot.  part of the reasoning is actually seeing the keys, etc but i also realized that last time i had to use qwerty, for an extended period, that it crippled my colemak performance for almost as long afterwards.

ya, switching back and forth was crippling for me too. (unlike in languages; its easier to be multi lingual but not as easy to be multi-keyboard-layout). I think this is because keyboarding is almost completely a "motor skill" (unlike langauge). Ie, its your fingers getting 'habituated' that makes you a fast typer; habituated as an automated reflex response.  So swapping layouts can be pretty crippling on your fingers I think.

I'm very proud of my 100wpm on qwerty (and it took me years and years to get there); would have to drop that overboard

[JBert]

i switched on a whim, thinking about it too long will probably have you ending up with "aaah forget it"
at least it would have for me

im not faster yet... i dont think... but i am probably about as fast as i was before (< 2months in)

Well, I do type faster, but that has probably more to do with the fact that I couldn't touchtype before switching to Colemak. Not to forget that I now got a Cherry brown keyboard at home.

The only weird thing is that I got some RSI issues since switching. However, I think the cause is that I put too much stress on my muscles when trying to increase my typing speed.

The Colemak layout is easier to learn than Qwerty for someone new to typing, but for experienced typists switching will probably remain an issue.

[JBert]

ya, switching back and forth was crippling for me too. (unlike in languages; its easier to be multi lingual but not as easy to be multi-keyboard-layout). I think this is because keyboarding is almost completely a "motor skill" (unlike langauge). Ie, its your fingers getting 'habituated' that makes you a fast typer; habituated as an automated reflex response.  So swapping layouts can be pretty crippling on your fingers I think.

Indeed, that has a lot to do with it. You need to overcome the habit to press the key in the Qwerty layout and learn to press some other key. Switching hence cripples one of the layouts.

You don't completely forget the old one though, I can still type at a reasonable speed when I look at my keyboard. You just don't look as cool...

[DreymaR]

I actually believe that I can type QWERTY faster now than when I started learning Dvorak and then Colemak; the main hurdle to QWERTY for me is that I have to look at the key caps for a while now - I might avoid that by dual-training more but I'd rather avoid QWERTY instead, hehe. Much of your 100 WPM will be typing technique that's fairly layout-irrelevant.

But it would be painful for a 100 WPM QWERTY typist to switch. Unless absolutely dedicated like, say, Ryan Heise was, it may just be too much for you. Too bad; I have come to the point where I'll pretty much promise eventual joy for those who switch and stick to Colemak! Proselytize much, I know...

[lowpoly]

I plan to switch to Colemak as soon as I've blanked the white keycaps on my Mini. Main reason is that I think it will be more comfy. That's more important to me than pure speed. I started touch typing last year, I don't have to lose that much anyway.

Another text on typeracer says that Qwerty had many competitors when it was new and it was able to win speed contests and leave the competition behind. So we're not using the worst possible layout. Which might also explain why the absolute speed gains compared to Dvorak or Colemak are less than you'd expect.

[hyperlinked]

I thought for a while you were shortening *******s to Sholes.

Nah, then it'd be S-Holes

- RSI etc happens and then does not un-happen.  i dont have it yet either, but i dont want it, and its not like i am using some pansy flexible keyboard or strange chair to avoid it... in fact, i will ultimately become faster avoiding it

If you're referring to RSI as a collection of pain syndromes in the upper body, then the damage is a lot more treatable. If you're referring specifically to carpal tunnel syndrome or some other kind of nerve compression sydrome, then it's a lot harder to recover from it though not impossible. (Note that wrist and arm pain does not equate to carpal tunnel syndrome as is commonly assumed.)

Either way, you're right that you don't want to develop RSI however you define it, but you may not necessarily be safer from developing RSI merely by using a more efficient keyboard layout. Remember that there is no consensus on what causes RSI. There are just a bunch of habits that are believed to be contributors to RSI and nobody knows for sure which combination of genetics and factors makes one person more prone to developing RSI than another.

One of those risk factors is the speed of performing a task. I don't actually know, but my hunch is that you will probably find few 50wpm touch typists suffering from RSI. If you're using a COLEMAK layout to make your typing more efficient and less strain inducing, the irony is that you're actually adding to one of your risk factors of RSI by decreasing another one.

I developed serious tendinitis and possible carpal tunnel syndrome in my left wrist predominantly from playing a hyperkinetic scrambling style of Unreal Tournament. That had nothing to do with reaching for keys. I injured myself pressing WASD over and over again very very fast. I still have minor tendinitis in that wrist, but I definitely don't have signs of carpal tunnel anymore. I'm still a 100+ wpm QWERTY typist, but I rarely game anymore. My symptoms are controlled by good equipment and good management of flare ups.

I'm not trying to talk you out of being a COLEMAK believer. I just want to point out that the claims of health benefits of non-QWERTY may not be valid for everyone. If an alternate keyboard layout seems to do you good, then stick with it, but don't stop looking for problems to correct. The layout is just one factor that can contribute to RSI.

[wellington1869]

Another text on typeracer says that Qwerty had many competitors when it was new and it was able to win speed contests and leave the competition behind. So we're not using the worst possible layout. Which might also explain why the absolute speed gains compared to Dvorak or Colemak are less than you'd expect.

it could be worse; we could be stuck with an "abcdef" layout -- which has its own 'logic' too

I love how we're getting our keyboard history from random text snippets on typeracer, lol.  They're pretty interesting snippets actually, sometimes I'm so interested in the snippet that I mentally drop out of the 'typerace', lol.

[Rajagra]

Another text on typeracer says that Qwerty had many competitors-

Don't you hate that? Having to type QWERTY in speed tests when you're using Colemak or Dvorak? Especially when it's in upper case. Such an unfair bias in favour of Qwerty, LOL.

We need a slogan:
   QWERTY. Created By A Sholes.

[AndrewZorn]

yeah, typing QWERTY sucks... but 'wars', 'stars', 'none' etc make up for it
something like 70% of words can be typed from the home row with colemak

[DreymaR]

We need a slogan:
   QWERTY. Created By A Sholes.

Certainly beats mine:


In these parts, Old-School is considered positive, even. Except when it's Old-Shole...

[wellington1869]

We need a slogan:
   QWERTY. Created By A Sholes.

funny! xD

[DreymaR]

On a more serious note though, it is a brilliant joke but a horrible slogan. Sholes did a good job I think, given his agenda and day. And he certainly wasn't being a sphincter about anything that I'm aware of.

He even put many of the less-used keys in hard-to-reach spots. Colemak only moves 17 keys from QWERTY, because while the home row mostly needed a reworking many corner spots were already good enough.

[Rajagra]

True. He and his colleagues showed great foresight and perseverance as they built their business.

[AndrewZorn]

oh, i don't think anyone blames the guy.  he was designing a machine, not an experience.  it's just the same type of problem as switching to the metric system... most people think it is too much effort for no reason, and so it won't get done.

[secularzarathustra]

I switched to Dvorak a while ago, when I was getting pain in my wrists from typing too much. After about six months I had typed my highest qwerty speed, but recently I switched back for two main reasons. 1) having to either remap at every computer I was using (I did linux server support at the time) or lug around an old Unicomp 101 which has dip switches to hard set the board as dvorak...and 2) Old typewriters, which offer an extremely pleasing typing experience.

So now I'm back to qwerty...but luckily it only took about two days to switch back and touch type. And as someone else posted, at least it's not as bassackwards as the French layout.