Detergent to use for Model M Caps?

[joerush25]

I recently got an IBM Model M Terminal (RJ-45) exactly like this one below



It has 5+ years of dust on it and i'm wondering what detergent i should soak the caps in. I want to prevent letter fading / damage to the keys and I've heard some detergents can cause damage.

I'm leaning towards powdered laundry detergent in water.  What would be your recommendation?  Thanks

[user 18]

I cleaned my M caps by hand rather than by soaking, but I used a vinegar and water solution, scrubbed with a Q-tip, and blotted dry with paper towel.

The dilute vinegar is a little less harsh than isopropyl alcohol, which is another common suggestion.

[E TwentyNine]

My process with M caps and stems is to pull them all off and soak them in a bowl full of water with liquid dish washing detergent and forget about them, usually a few hours or overnight.

Then dump the water keeping keys in bowl, rinse repeat til water runs clear, put all the caps in a towel, shake them up a bit then put it flat on a table, let sit overnight again.

Usually only a few keys end up with some drops of water left in them.

[fohat.digs]

I use a spoonful of powdered laundry detergent (Charlie's) and a spoonful of Oxi- (or Biz or something similar) in a liter of hot water.

10 minutes is plenty, shake the bowl a couple of times. Rinse well, I use a colander and go back and forth with the large soaking bowl about 3 times at the kitchen sink.

Spread out a T-shirt on the bed, and use your fingers to sling the water out of each cap individually (I know, it is a nuisance, but it only takes 3 minutes) and then turn them stem-down on the T-shirt.

Within 10-20 minutes they are dry enough to re-install.

You can easily force this entire process down to as little as 30 minutes and it will take care of 99.9% of all the dirt on the caps. Laundry detergent is made to rinse out quickly and they are squeaky clean.

Trust me, I have cleaned thousands of M/F keys this way, some were truly vile nasty from ebay purchases.

[CPTBadAss]

Dish soap and water will also work. And I use denture cleaning tabs and water.

[chyros]

I have yet to encounter a key cap that couldn't be cleaned with simple warm (not hot!) water and washing up liquid. And considering I get almost all my keyboards from recycling centres, that's saying something . Just leave in a bowl for a little while, then rinse thoroughly with water in a colander and rub off with a damp towel. Leave to dry overnight or shortly inside a towel on top of the central heating.

[BlueNalgene]

I use a spoonful of powdered laundry detergent (Charlie's) and a spoonful of Oxi- (or Biz or something similar) in a liter of hot water.

10 minutes is plenty, shake the bowl a couple of times. Rinse well, I use a colander and go back and forth with the large soaking bowl about 3 times at the kitchen sink.

Spread out a T-shirt on the bed, and use your fingers to sling the water out of each cap individually (I know, it is a nuisance, but it only takes 3 minutes) and then turn them stem-down on the T-shirt.

Within 10-20 minutes they are dry enough to re-install.

You can easily force this entire process down to as little as 30 minutes and it will take care of 99.9% of all the dirt on the caps. Laundry detergent is made to rinse out quickly and they are squeaky clean.

Trust me, I have cleaned thousands of M/F keys this way, some were truly vile nasty from ebay purchases.

In theory, I would avoid the Oxi- stuff, since you may be shortening the lifetime of the plastic by expending the polymer additives used to reduce oxidation.  A smidge of laundry detergent and a decent soak should get things loose enough to clean with a toothbrush and a healthy dose of elbow grease. 

If there are oily deposits which are hard to remove with the detergent - try some ethanol/methanol/isopropanol to dissolve the organics.

[CPTBadAss]

Oh I forgot that too. Thanks BlueNalgene. Isopropyl alcohol is also great .

[BlueNalgene]

Oh I forgot that too. Thanks BlueNalgene. Isopropyl alcohol is also great .

Your friendly neighborhood chemist.  I could also hook you up with some good ****. Need to really clean it? Water, surfactant, and alcohol together 80/5/15.  Then sonicate it for 2 hours.

[CPTBadAss]

Um...99% isopropyl in a ultrasonic cleaner sounds good.

[BlueNalgene]

Um...99% isopropyl in a ultrasonic cleaner sounds good.

Meh, depends on what is on there.  Not everything is alcohol soluble.  But for everyday stuff, yeah - sonication is overkill is some sexy overkill.

[joerush25]

I use a spoonful of powdered laundry detergent (Charlie's) and a spoonful of Oxi- (or Biz or something similar) in a liter of hot water.

10 minutes is plenty, shake the bowl a couple of times. Rinse well, I use a colander and go back and forth with the large soaking bowl about 3 times at the kitchen sink.

Spread out a T-shirt on the bed, and use your fingers to sling the water out of each cap individually (I know, it is a nuisance, but it only takes 3 minutes) and then turn them stem-down on the T-shirt.

Within 10-20 minutes they are dry enough to re-install.

You can easily force this entire process down to as little as 30 minutes and it will take care of 99.9% of all the dirt on the caps. Laundry detergent is made to rinse out quickly and they are squeaky clean.

Trust me, I have cleaned thousands of M/F keys this way, some were truly vile nasty from ebay purchases.

Thanks! I'm also thinking about using a toothbrush on them after straining. Also if i don't have this Oxy stuff can I just use straight up laundry detergent only?

[joerush25]

My process with M caps and stems is to pull them all off and soak them in a bowl full of water with liquid dish washing detergent and forget about them, usually a few hours or overnight.

Then dump the water keeping keys in bowl, rinse repeat til water runs clear, put all the caps in a towel, shake them up a bit then put it flat on a table, let sit overnight again.

Usually only a few keys end up with some drops of water left in them.

I've heard that it's risky to wash the stems as they need to be 100% dry before re inserting and they take a longer time to dry

If my stems aren't that dirty is it still worth a go? I'd be concerned about heat warping and having the stems not fit in properly.

[0100010]

30 minutes in a bowl of water and Tide, with the caps separated from the stems.  Rinse well, several times and let them air dry for a couple days.

[joerush25]

Just soaked my caps for about 1h in powder tide and water. Then used a toothbrush on every key cap. They look brand new!

[rowdy]

I have used denture tablets on a few Model M keycaps, and it has worked flawlessly every time.

I also give them a quick rinse in clean cold water afterwards, and a brief rub with an old toothbrush.

[fohat.digs]

I've heard that it's risky to wash the stems as they need to be 100% dry before re inserting and they take a longer time to dry

Hence my comment "sling the water out by hand"

Pinch the key between 2 fingers, upright, and sling it downward so that the water falls onto the T-shirt. That removes 99% in half a second.

If you are really afraid of any water left, turn them all stem-down for 10 minutes, then stem-up for 10 minutes and let gravity and evaporation work for you.

There is almost never any need for any additional scrubbing. Laundry detergent is made for the kind of dirt that accumulates on them.

Per BlueNalgene's comment, I will probably stop using the Oxi- product. I have come to like it in laundry because a very small amount seems to help a lot.

Except for "Georgia red clay" stains - iron - those require a vinegar soak and going the opposite direction.

[joerush25]

Also, what about the plastic housing? Same laundry detergent?

In terms of wetting the IBM logo on the face with hot soapy water, will it cause harm?

[chyros]

Also, what about the plastic housing? Same laundry detergent?

In terms of wetting the IBM logo on the face with hot soapy water, will it cause harm?

Shouldn't, no. I've washed the logo of several Ms, even used a scrubber. Never use HOT water on anything though, some plastics, particularly PBT, are heat sensitive!

[joerush25]

Also, what about the plastic housing? Same laundry detergent?

In terms of wetting the IBM logo on the face with hot soapy water, will it cause harm?

Shouldn't, no. I've washed the logo of several Ms, even used a scrubber. Never use HOT water on anything though, some plastics, particularly PBT, are heat sensitive!

in terms of "hot" water, the hottest setting on my tap is bearable... so i think we have different ideas about how hot the water is... im not boiling it in a kettle or anything

[chyros]

Also, what about the plastic housing? Same laundry detergent?

In terms of wetting the IBM logo on the face with hot soapy water, will it cause harm?

Shouldn't, no. I've washed the logo of several Ms, even used a scrubber. Never use HOT water on anything though, some plastics, particularly PBT, are heat sensitive!

in terms of "hot" water, the hottest setting on my tap is bearable... so i think we have different ideas about how hot the water is... im not boiling it in a kettle or anything

Oh that's fine. With "hot" I meant if you stick your hand in it and go "ow, hot hot hot!" .

[retrochick]

Simple Green will work as well. Just soak for a few minutes and rinse.

[False_Dmitry_II]

Toss keys in closable plastic basket. Toss basket in dish washer. Shake basket to get rid of alot of water. Toss basket somewhere and let it dry. All keys I've ever dealt with have done this and been fine. ABS keys included.

Most of this is way too overthought and involved. Cases may warp in dishwasher, though. Particularly if they are made in Greenock. I stopped trying after that particular case.

Shouldn't, no. I've washed the logo of several Ms, even used a scrubber. Never use HOT water on anything though, some plastics, particularly PBT, are heat sensitive!

Wat?! Should read PBT is heat IMMUNE. You boil that crap to dye it. It don't care.

[chyros]

Shouldn't, no. I've washed the logo of several Ms, even used a scrubber. Never use HOT water on anything though, some plastics, particularly PBT, are heat sensitive!

Wat?! Should read PBT is heat IMMUNE. You boil that crap to dye it. It don't care.

We're talking about heat-sensitive IN WATER here. You can most certainly NOT boil it - it is sensitive to hot water at 60 C or more. It also has a Tg at 66 C.

This might sound weird, but from a plastic perspective, PBT isn't actually all that great of a material.

[njbair]

I use a spoonful of powdered laundry detergent (Charlie's) and a spoonful of Oxi- (or Biz or something similar) in a liter of hot water.

10 minutes is plenty, shake the bowl a couple of times. Rinse well, I use a colander and go back and forth with the large soaking bowl about 3 times at the kitchen sink.

Spread out a T-shirt on the bed, and use your fingers to sling the water out of each cap individually (I know, it is a nuisance, but it only takes 3 minutes) and then turn them stem-down on the T-shirt.

Within 10-20 minutes they are dry enough to re-install.

You can easily force this entire process down to as little as 30 minutes and it will take care of 99.9% of all the dirt on the caps. Laundry detergent is made to rinse out quickly and they are squeaky clean.

Trust me, I have cleaned thousands of M/F keys this way, some were truly vile nasty from ebay purchases.

+1 on flinging the water out by hand. I do this step over the sink after a quick towel pat down.

[fohat.digs]

We're talking about heat-sensitive IN WATER here. You can most certainly NOT boil it - it is sensitive to hot water at 60 C or more.

I routinely boil Model M caps in the dye bath for up to half an hour.

ABS will start warping significantly at about 80C-85C/170F-180F, in my experience.

[joerush25]

So I decided that after the soapy bath, i would scrub each one with a toothbrush... now every part of every key that isn't textured looks slightly brushed/scratched under the right light Should have stuck with a wet cloth.

[fohat.digs]

soapy bath,

After cleaning literally thousands (and possibly even 10K) keys using a powdered laundry detergent soak and rinse, I could count on my fingers the ones that have needed any additional physical scrubbing or wiping.

It simply blows my mind the way the people on this forum are constantly fabricating difficult, expensive, time- and labor-intensive procedures for something so dead-ass simple.

[Snowdog993]

soapy bath,

After cleaning literally thousands (and possibly even 10K) keys using a powdered laundry detergent soak and rinse, I could count on my fingers the ones that have needed any additional physical scrubbing or wiping.

It simply blows my mind the way the people on this forum are constantly fabricating difficult, expensive, time- and labor-intensive procedures for something so dead-ass simple.

This I definitely agree with.  All I use is warm water and Palmolive liquid dish soap.  It takes some time, but well worth it for the end result.

Before:

More

After: *Note the keycaps only.  This was before cleaning the clamshell.

More

I like this picture after everything is said and done:

More

[chyros]

We're talking about heat-sensitive IN WATER here. You can most certainly NOT boil it - it is sensitive to hot water at 60 C or more.

I routinely boil Model M caps in the dye bath for up to half an hour.

Your choice of course, but every book says you shouldn't. For detailed information on the properties of PBT and other plastics, refer to The Complete Part Design Handbook For Injection Molding of Thermoplastics by Campo Alfredo (Hanser, 2006).

[False_Dmitry_II]

We're talking about heat-sensitive IN WATER here. You can most certainly NOT boil it - it is sensitive to hot water at 60 C or more.

I routinely boil Model M caps in the dye bath for up to half an hour.

Your choice of course, but every book says you shouldn't. For detailed information on the properties of PBT and other plastics, refer to The Complete Part Design Handbook For Injection Molding of Thermoplastics by Campo Alfredo (Hanser, 2006).

You realize that just because something is theoretically bad doesn't always mean that it is actually remotely relevant right? I didn't read whatever you just linked, but I did look up the glass transition temperature stuff. What do you think "Sensitive" means, anyway? I'd submit that it is this very change in state to the more rubbery/elastic state is what in fact actually allows the addition of color using those dyes in the first place. Indeed, including even the dye sublimation which makes up the very letters on these IBM keys must utilize that same exact property. After the dye infuses in, and the keys are cooled back off they merely return to their usual state, which is why the colors stay so well trapped, and it seems impossible to wear it out. Or end up with color transfer to fingers.

A change in state is not the same thing as a change in form or shape.

ABS is said to be amorphous and have no true melting temperature, and it does exactly what fohat says it does. Even though its glass-transition temperature is higher than PBT, it has deformed already well before then. I and plenty of others have seen it. PBT has a melting point of 223 degrees Celcius. In addition, I have read somewhere (can't find it right now) that the temperature you have to nail PBT with in order for it to deform in the same way as ABS is 160 degrees Celcius or more. Water will top out (besides modifiers) at 100 degrees Celcius because this is where it stays during the duration of boiling. Therefore PBT in water is entirely heat immune in every way. I conclude that PBT is in fact a fantastic plastic material for keycaps. Dying custom colors is cool.

[joerush25]

All the posts on removing the keycaps say "just get a butterknife and pry away"

Ended up cracking the plastic backing that the barrels sit on.

If you want to remove your keys, get a puller.

[fohat.digs]

get a puller.

Or make one.

[False_Dmitry_II]

FYI, fohat, the yellow in the middle is that new iDye and it wasn't quite as yellow as I was hoping. It didn't mix uniformly in the water in the first place either, so I don't know if it was a bad batch or if that particular color is bad from them. The yellow WASD on the bottom was done much earlier, using old formula RIT.

The blue on the bottom and IIRC the red in the middle were both iDye as well and were totally fine. I've started keeping the dye solution like you talked about as well. The red one just looks like blood pretty much. I was particularly glad the red worked well because I didn't have any more of that in RIT.

That blue is a touch fisher-price, though.