Author Topic: Custom made Buckling Springs keyboard  (Read 7177 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline kurplop

  • THE HERO WE DON'T DESERVE
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 992
Custom made Buckling Springs keyboard
« on: Wed, 24 June 2015, 23:25:49 »
I'm toying with the idea of making an ergo keyboard using BS switches. I've heard of others trying to adapt bs switches into a custom configuration but few have actually succeeded. Could those of you with experience with modding Model Ms help me to understand the obstacles I'd be facing?

Questions

1. Do you think the barrels could be separated and reset into custom body?
2. Do you think micro switches and wiring could replace the RD membrane?
3. Can the keycaps be rotated on the BS stems 90ş?
4. What else should I know?

Offline E TwentyNine

  • Posts: 884
    • Some of My Keyboards
Re: Custom made Buckling Springs keyboard
« Reply #1 on: Thu, 25 June 2015, 08:06:26 »
1. Don't start with an M, start with an XT or a similar F (prob wouldn't go using an AT or 122 as a source ($), but they'd work too).  The barrels are already separate and set up for insertion into a metal plate.

2. Maybe. As long as the flipper has something to hit that doesn't require too much force.

3. Don't see why this is needed, you can set the barrels at whatever orientation you like.

Daily driver: SSK or Tenkeyless IBM AT
1984 Model M Industrial Prototype ⌨ 1992 Black Oval Industrial SSK ⌨ 1982 5251 Beam Spring ⌨ 89 Key "SSK" ⌨ M13 triplets

Offline kurplop

  • THE HERO WE DON'T DESERVE
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 992
Re: Custom made Buckling Springs keyboard
« Reply #2 on: Fri, 26 June 2015, 07:29:42 »
 Thanks for the tip about the barrels.

Does anyone know how much force the flipper produces? Any suggestions about a switch that might work?

Are the springs and flippers interchangeable between the M and F?
« Last Edit: Fri, 26 June 2015, 07:31:42 by kurplop »

Offline CPTBadAss

  • Woke up like this
  • Posts: 14368
    • Tactile Zine
Re: Custom made Buckling Springs keyboard
« Reply #3 on: Fri, 26 June 2015, 07:45:14 »
Are the springs and flippers interchangeable between the M and F?

The flippers are slightly different.

You may want to PM wcass about this. He's done a lot of custom Model M work. I had the fortune of trying out his 65% M with custom PCB earlier this year at Keycon.

Offline Oobly

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Posts: 3929
  • Location: Finland
Re: Custom made Buckling Springs keyboard
« Reply #4 on: Fri, 03 July 2015, 04:51:01 »
If you use a Model F as a donor board I don't see why not. I happen to think it's not all that hard to design a dual-sided PCB to work with xwhatsit's controller design (or your own based on the same principals) in whatever layout you want and use F barrels and hammers in a custom plate. Not easy, but definitely doable. It's something I plan to do at some point, but I have WAY too many current projects.

Or you could use some low force microswitches, but I much prefer capacitive sensing.
Buying more keycaps,
it really hacks my wallet,
but I must have them.

Offline wcass

  • Posts: 506
  • Location: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
Re: Custom made Buckling Springs keyboard
« Reply #5 on: Fri, 03 July 2015, 20:03:03 »
Yep, the model F boards have individual barrels that can be moved around. You will need to make a "barrel frame" to hold the barrels where you want them. I have made barrel frames from cardboard, acrylic, and metal. I suggest that you start with cardboard (works poorly, but is good for visualization and testing) and work your way up. The key caps work on the barrels in only one alignment, but you can turn the barrel to achieve the cap orientation you desire.


If i were you, i would stick with membrane or capacitive switches. Membrane is easier to design and will work with almost any controller but is MUCH harder to find a vendor willing to print just a few for less than a bucket of money. It has taken me more than a month to find a vendor that i can afford.

Offline kurplop

  • THE HERO WE DON'T DESERVE
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 992
Re: Custom made Buckling Springs keyboard
« Reply #6 on: Fri, 03 July 2015, 23:44:07 »
Thanks everyone for the responses.  I picked up an old Model M and Model F off of ebay and broke them down to see and touch them for myself. It doesn't matter how well someone describes something, until your actually start fiddling  around with the guts of it, you're education is lacking. And of course what I've learned is just what you are all telling me.

- The individual barrels on the F will make it much easier to build a custom keyboard layout.

-  After making a quick holder to secure the barrel, cap, and spring units in, I was able to see just how the BS action works and the amount of force the hammers generate. My primitive tests indicate that they only register about 10g. of force. I think that may severely limit the switch choices.

- I'm afraid to try to mess with the capacitive system because I think it's too complicated for me.

- The Model M flippers work mechanically in the F barrels. They are smaller and have a bump to activate the membrane contacts unlike the F flipper which is a larger flatter contact.

- I'm wondering if it would make sense to use the F barrel with the M flipper and a membrane switch similar to the M.

- I was impressed with the elegant simplicity of the Model M's 3 layer membrane switch. Has anyone tried to home make them?

-  I know now what all the BS affection is about. Every strike has an air of authority in it. I'm sure anything I write using BS switches will be far more important than anything I've ever written in the past!

wcass–  Thanks for the advice. Have you documented any of your mods on GH?  I'd like to see what you've done.


Oobly–  I get the impression that capacitive switching is out of my league but I'd like to learn more about it. Any articles you might suggest?


My Buckling Spring switch holder. It allowed me to see how they work and whether the M flipper would work in the F barrel.
104459-0

« Last Edit: Sat, 04 July 2015, 23:38:59 by kurplop »

Offline mkawa

  •  No Marketplace Access
  • Posts: 6562
  • (ツ)@@@. crankypants
Re: Custom made Buckling Springs keyboard
« Reply #7 on: Sat, 04 July 2015, 00:24:32 »
kurplop and i were experimenting with printing short-run membranes for a while, particularly for the SSK. acetrack also designed a nice bent sheet metal frame for it. b. dock from sig. plastics also helped out with end caps that keep the plates at a proper angle. wcass did manage to have one of the ssk membranes printed iirc, and i ended up with a 3d printer that produced the end caps with shocking fidelity.

that said, what ended up happening was that i rebuilt some ssks with donor cases and got them out to testers. after a revision i had the bolt mod trickiness down, and with the end caps the board could have been usable, but iirc i never made more than one or two.

to all the brilliant friends who have left us, and all the students who climb on their shoulders.

Offline wcass

  • Posts: 506
  • Location: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
Re: Custom made Buckling Springs keyboard
« Reply #8 on: Sat, 04 July 2015, 13:16:30 »

wcass–  Thanks for the advice. Have you documented any of your mods on GH?  I'd like to see what you've done.

I'm a fan of both F and M, and have mods of both. My first "new from scratch" matrix was the XTant. It was during the great blackout of 2012, so the write up is at Deskthority.
http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/bringing-the-ibm-pc-xt-into-the-21st-century-t3047-210.html


When i couldn't get past the controller problem, i started designing M type switches and incorporated an idea i have to give them NKRO. I also discovered how insanely expensive they are in low volume. But i did find a company in the UK that used a propitiatory technique to print copper on PET. This worked, but still cost about $30 per membrane layer.
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=40111


And when xwhatsit and DPH released capacitive switch controllers, i was able to finish up the XTant.
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=51767


My current project goes back to the M design. 
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=69530
http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/new-buckling-spring-design-t10234.html


InkJetFlex is not providing prototype service any longer, so i have had to do a lot of searching for someone to print my membranes. A company in China will be printing 10 membranes for me for $115 (including delivery). I'll post a review of them when they come in.


I'm very open about any of my experiences and am happy to help anyone with design. Like i said, i'm a buckling spring fan.

Offline mkawa

  •  No Marketplace Access
  • Posts: 6562
  • (ツ)@@@. crankypants
Re: Custom made Buckling Springs keyboard
« Reply #9 on: Sat, 04 July 2015, 13:22:10 »
115 delivered is not bad. that's about the same as a simple populated PCB. let me know how the quality turns out. it would be nice to get a few ssks built.

to all the brilliant friends who have left us, and all the students who climb on their shoulders.

Offline Oobly

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Posts: 3929
  • Location: Finland
Re: Custom made Buckling Springs keyboard
« Reply #10 on: Sat, 04 July 2015, 14:42:25 »
Sorry I don't have time for a more in-depth reply, but this is a GREAT reference for capacitive sensing and controller design (by xwhatsit himself): http://downloads.cornall.co/ibm-capsense-usb-web/ibm-capsense-usb.html
Buying more keycaps,
it really hacks my wallet,
but I must have them.

Offline kurplop

  • THE HERO WE DON'T DESERVE
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 992
Re: Custom made Buckling Springs keyboard
« Reply #11 on: Sat, 04 July 2015, 18:35:53 »
It looks like I have a lot of reading to do. Thanks. I quickly read through the articles and will be studying them in days to come. A lot of impressive work has been done and am glad to know that there are scouts out there who have already blazed the trail.

Offline kurplop

  • THE HERO WE DON'T DESERVE
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 992
Re: Custom made Buckling Springs keyboard
« Reply #12 on: Tue, 07 July 2015, 21:01:36 »
I had a some time today so I drilled out a piece of 1/8" aluminum and rolled it and its undrilled twin to match the radius of a Model F backing plate. Its purpose was to test whether the F barrels would sandwich together without problems. I also trimmed the front of the caps and the leading edge of the barrel's flipper pocket to reduce the vertical pitch to 0.70". The mechanism works fine but the sound is very metallic. I think that when I add the pad and membrane it will mellow out some. I may also do the same test with thinner plate stock to compare sound and feel

104701-0

I have grown use to both vertical columns and tighter key placement and wanted to make sure it would work with the BS switches. So far no snags.

I may just resin in the clipped cap fronts, which are barely visible, rather than try to cast all new caps.
« Last Edit: Thu, 09 July 2015, 06:02:09 by kurplop »

Offline CPTBadAss

  • Woke up like this
  • Posts: 14368
    • Tactile Zine
Re: Custom made Buckling Springs keyboard
« Reply #13 on: Tue, 07 July 2015, 21:05:35 »
kurplop....are you making another insane custom? 'cause I don't know if I could nerd crush anymore and now you're talking custom buckling spring...yeah...this is about to get real awkward for one of us ;)  :-*

Excited to see where this is going!!

Offline kurplop

  • THE HERO WE DON'T DESERVE
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 992
Re: Custom made Buckling Springs keyboard
« Reply #14 on: Tue, 07 July 2015, 21:11:15 »
kurplop....are you making another insane custom? 'cause I don't know if I could nerd crush anymore and now you're talking custom buckling spring...yeah...this is about to get real awkward for one of us ;)  :-*

Excited to see where this is going!!

Yeah, I guess so. This one will be my apology to those naysayers who didn't think I should have ever joined my ErgoDox. It will be two separate halves mounted to my chair arms.

Offline CPTBadAss

  • Woke up like this
  • Posts: 14368
    • Tactile Zine
Re: Custom made Buckling Springs keyboard
« Reply #15 on: Tue, 07 July 2015, 21:13:09 »
And you're going to make me one too right....right??

Offline kurplop

  • THE HERO WE DON'T DESERVE
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 992
Re: Custom made Buckling Springs keyboard
« Reply #16 on: Tue, 07 July 2015, 21:17:12 »
Of course!

Offline VoteForDavid

  • Posts: 221
  • Location: Texas
    • Vote For David
Re: Custom made Buckling Springs keyboard
« Reply #17 on: Tue, 07 July 2015, 22:01:07 »
"...for a small fee, plus shipping and handling..."
Jesus loves you.

Offline kurplop

  • THE HERO WE DON'T DESERVE
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 992
Re: Custom made Buckling Springs keyboard
« Reply #18 on: Tue, 07 July 2015, 22:25:23 »
"...for a small fee, plus shipping and handling..."

I estimate about 111 hours. What do you think David.

Offline Melvang

  • Exquisite Lord of Bumfluff
  • * Maker
  • Posts: 4398
  • Location: Waterloo, IA
  • Melvang's Desktop Customs
Re: Custom made Buckling Springs keyboard
« Reply #19 on: Tue, 07 July 2015, 22:28:49 »
I can't wait to see where this goes.
OG Kishsaver, Razer Orbweaver clears and reds with blue LEDs, and Razer Naga Epic.   "Great minds crawl in the same sewer"  Uncle Rich

Offline VoteForDavid

  • Posts: 221
  • Location: Texas
    • Vote For David
Re: Custom made Buckling Springs keyboard
« Reply #20 on: Wed, 08 July 2015, 23:17:01 »
Man anyone who spends eleventy hours making a custom keyboard must be crazy or something.
Jesus loves you.

Offline kurplop

  • THE HERO WE DON'T DESERVE
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 992
Re: Custom made Buckling Springs keyboard
« Reply #21 on: Thu, 09 July 2015, 06:00:03 »
Man anyone who spends eleventy hours making a custom keyboard must be crazy or something.

Especially when they only let out of their padded cells 1 hour a day to work on it.
« Last Edit: Thu, 09 July 2015, 13:12:17 by kurplop »

Offline kurplop

  • THE HERO WE DON'T DESERVE
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 992
Re: Custom made Buckling Springs keyboard
« Reply #22 on: Wed, 15 July 2015, 23:10:29 »
I was very dissappointed with the metallic springy noise with the barrels mounted in the aluminum sandwich so I thought I'd try some more experiments. I liked the sound my wooden barrel test holder produced very much so I decided to make another sandwich this time using walnut for the 'bread'.

I sliced some walnut to about 3/16" and glued it up.
105638-0

After a little belt sanding it looks presentable.
105640-1

A quick trim to square things up on the table saw.
105642-2

Mounted and ready to drill some holes
105644-3

Maybe tomorrow.

Offline CPTBadAss

  • Woke up like this
  • Posts: 14368
    • Tactile Zine
Re: Custom made Buckling Springs keyboard
« Reply #23 on: Thu, 16 July 2015, 16:00:26 »
Ooo nice setup but I personally love that "PING" from a buckling spring board.

Offline kurplop

  • THE HERO WE DON'T DESERVE
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 992
Re: Custom made Buckling Springs keyboard
« Reply #24 on: Thu, 16 July 2015, 17:53:55 »
Ooo nice setup but I personally love that "PING" from a buckling spring board.

I'll make sure yours has a lot of ping.

Offline kurplop

  • THE HERO WE DON'T DESERVE
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 992
Re: Custom made Buckling Springs keyboard
« Reply #25 on: Fri, 17 July 2015, 22:27:36 »
I drilled my walnut plates to check out the sound and fit of the barrels.
105817-0105819-1
After some experimenting I realized that the sound I really like is when the F flippers slap against the
 lower plate.
105821-2
I wonder if I could use copper tape to make a switch contact to bridge pcb pads?  Any thoughts.
105823-3



Offline VoteForDavid

  • Posts: 221
  • Location: Texas
    • Vote For David
Re: Custom made Buckling Springs keyboard
« Reply #26 on: Fri, 17 July 2015, 22:47:19 »
Copper oxidizes. Tin it if you use it.
Jesus loves you.

Offline kurplop

  • THE HERO WE DON'T DESERVE
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 992
Re: Custom made Buckling Springs keyboard
« Reply #27 on: Sat, 18 July 2015, 05:17:42 »
Thanks, I wondered about that but isn't oxidized copper still pretty conductive? I was also wondering about the thickness(.5oz) and if wear would be an issue. Another concern is whether the flippers have enough depth tolerance to offset any misalignment if the pad height isn't the same. I'm going to do some tests but I'd welcome any input.

Offline CPTBadAss

  • Woke up like this
  • Posts: 14368
    • Tactile Zine
Re: Custom made Buckling Springs keyboard
« Reply #28 on: Sat, 18 July 2015, 09:42:40 »
Copper oxidizes. Tin it if you use it.

I thought people had made traces out of copper tape and the membranes in Ms were copper.

Ooo nice setup but I personally love that "PING" from a buckling spring board.

I'll make sure yours has a lot of ping.

Wait...were you seriously going to build me a board? I was joking lol. Also, I am all about that pingy machine gun funk buckling spring sound :D.

Offline VoteForDavid

  • Posts: 221
  • Location: Texas
    • Vote For David
Re: Custom made Buckling Springs keyboard
« Reply #29 on: Sat, 18 July 2015, 23:52:18 »
With the understanding I've never had to use copper like this before, but I have used copper before:

A trace being copper is one thing.  You don't need surface conductivity for a contact, on a trace between switch contacts.  Plus the alloy of the metal could have been somewhat resistant to forming corrosion (who knows?).  If you are doing capacitive sensing (as the model F did), I would think surface conductivity would be of minimal concern.  The controller might be a challenge, for a capacitive sensing board.  If you are doing a matrix with two conducting layers and one spacer layer like most keyboards I've been inside . . . you may be in for some cost to have the matrix sheets made if you can find a manufacturer.

But from what I have seen, the traces in keyboard matrices tend to be *silvered*.  Oxidized copper is worse than clean copper for surface conductivity.  Oxidized silver is actually better than raw silver.  That's why lots of contacts even in really big high powered switches tend to be silvered.  If you were making ALL your traces of copper (e.g. on a PCB) you could maybe give it some sort of electrolytically-applied silver plating.

I think for a BS keyboard like this, the easiest thing to DIY would be a to copy the style of PCB from a model F with the big capacitive sensing pads, the big flipper of probably-conductive plastic, and use a Model F controller with a converter to a more-modern protocol.  You'd have to reverse-engineer and then roll your own matrix, or do custom key programming. 

cliffs: it's complicated
Jesus loves you.

Offline CPTBadAss

  • Woke up like this
  • Posts: 14368
    • Tactile Zine
Re: Custom made Buckling Springs keyboard
« Reply #30 on: Mon, 20 July 2015, 13:32:43 »
I'm fairly sure that the PCB that wcass' PCB had copper traces. I'm not exactly sure how the PCB worked but it did work. You're probably right but I just wanted to point out that a custom BS PCB has been made and used before.

Offline wcass

  • Posts: 506
  • Location: Fort Lauderdale, FL, USA
Re: Custom made Buckling Springs keyboard
« Reply #31 on: Mon, 20 July 2015, 15:32:16 »
yes, copper and GOLD
the PCB had ENIG surface treatment. The membrane has silver in it. Copper oxide is not a good conductor; silver oxide is better; gold is almost inert, so it is best.

Offline kurplop

  • THE HERO WE DON'T DESERVE
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 992
Re: Custom made Buckling Springs keyboard
« Reply #32 on: Fri, 24 July 2015, 06:55:34 »
I'm fairly sure that the PCB that wcass' PCB had copper traces. I'm not exactly sure how the PCB worked but it did work. You're probably right but I just wanted to point out that a custom BS PCB has been made and used before.

wcass has PM'd me and has provided valuable and much needed direction . This is typical of the helpfulness I've seen in this community.

I've had family visiting which has halted progress on this project but after a little catch up at work I'll be back at it.

Offline CPTBadAss

  • Woke up like this
  • Posts: 14368
    • Tactile Zine
Re: Custom made Buckling Springs keyboard
« Reply #33 on: Fri, 24 July 2015, 07:11:06 »
wcass X kurplop? My mind isn't ready for the amazing to come. Really excited to see progress!

Offline iamtootallforthis

  • Something a lot Funnier
  • * Global Moderator
  • Posts: 4741
  • Location: West Palm Beach, FL
  • I like green stuffs.
    • WTB/WTTF Thread
Re: Custom made Buckling Springs keyboard
« Reply #34 on: Fri, 24 July 2015, 07:22:19 »
wcass X kurplop? My wallet isn't ready for the amazing to come. Really excited to see progress!

FTFY

Offline kurplop

  • THE HERO WE DON'T DESERVE
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 992
Re: Custom made Buckling Springs keyboard
« Reply #35 on: Sat, 25 July 2015, 13:01:31 »
I mentioned earlier how visitors had distracted me from working on my latest keyboard but all is not lost.

Here, at this idyllic pond side setting, I'm inculcating 3 of my grandchildren in the virtues of mechanical keyboards; specifically, ergonomically designed mechanical keyboards.
106521-0
Get them while their young! Heh heh heh.
« Last Edit: Sat, 25 July 2015, 15:59:56 by kurplop »

Offline iamtootallforthis

  • Something a lot Funnier
  • * Global Moderator
  • Posts: 4741
  • Location: West Palm Beach, FL
  • I like green stuffs.
    • WTB/WTTF Thread
Re: Custom made Buckling Springs keyboard
« Reply #36 on: Sat, 25 July 2015, 13:04:09 »
I mentioned earlier how visitors had distracted me from working on my latest keyboard but all is not lost.

Here at this idyllic pond side setting, I'm inculcating 3 of my grandchildren in the virtues of mechanical keyboards; specifically, ergonomically designed mechanical keyboards.
(Attachment Link)
Get them while their young! Heh heh heh.

That is one awesome picture! Enjoy spending time with them!

Offline kurplop

  • THE HERO WE DON'T DESERVE
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 992
Re: Custom made Buckling Springs keyboard
« Reply #37 on: Sat, 25 July 2015, 16:07:13 »

That is one awesome picture! Enjoy spending time with them!

Thanks. Even after a 2 week visit, I was sad to see them go. When I gave them a hug goodbye at the airport, my voice rode up and on the drive home I was teary eyed. I know. I'm an old softy. :(
« Last Edit: Sat, 25 July 2015, 16:12:45 by kurplop »

Offline iamtootallforthis

  • Something a lot Funnier
  • * Global Moderator
  • Posts: 4741
  • Location: West Palm Beach, FL
  • I like green stuffs.
    • WTB/WTTF Thread
Re: Custom made Buckling Springs keyboard
« Reply #38 on: Sat, 25 July 2015, 16:36:37 »

That is one awesome picture! Enjoy spending time with them!

Thanks. Even after a 2 week visit, I was sad to see them go. When I gave them a hug goodbye at the airport, my voice rode up and on the drive home I was teary eyed. I know. I'm an old softy. :(

I believe it man. I have it lucky as my grandparents live only 20 minutes away.

Offline Ellipse

  • Posts: 1630
  • Location: New York
    • Brand New Model F Keyboards
Re: Custom made Buckling Springs keyboard
« Reply #39 on: Wed, 29 July 2015, 22:59:02 »
kurplop - I am in the process of making brand new Model F buckling spring keyboards (F62 Kishsavers and F77 metal case keyboards), including the barrels, springs, and flippers.  I can help out with your project and any other buckling spring project as I will be making and selling extra barrels and flippers/springs.

Without the special capacitive flippers you would have to crack open an old IBM keyboard to pull these parts out of them in order to make a Model F keyboard.

Offline kurplop

  • THE HERO WE DON'T DESERVE
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 992
Re: Custom made Buckling Springs keyboard
« Reply #40 on: Thu, 30 July 2015, 08:26:29 »
Thanks for making me aware of that. I already have enough for this project but I may still take you up on the offer. I found your thread and it looks like a great project.

Offline CPTBadAss

  • Woke up like this
  • Posts: 14368
    • Tactile Zine
Re: Custom made Buckling Springs keyboard
« Reply #41 on: Wed, 02 September 2015, 14:33:25 »
Any updates Kurplop?

Offline kurplop

  • THE HERO WE DON'T DESERVE
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 992
Re: Custom made Buckling Springs keyboard
« Reply #42 on: Wed, 02 September 2015, 19:13:16 »
Thanks for the interest CPT. The project was derailed for several reasons, the main one being a design change that is taking me in a different direction as far as the switch type is concerned.

I hope to revisit the buckling spring project after I finish what I've got cooking now because I really like the incomparable feel and sound of  the BS switches.

Offline CPTBadAss

  • Woke up like this
  • Posts: 14368
    • Tactile Zine
Re: Custom made Buckling Springs keyboard
« Reply #43 on: Wed, 02 September 2015, 21:28:27 »
As long as I get a video of chips flying I'll forgive you kurplop ;). Haha. Whatever you've got planned I'm sure it's amazing.