What's With The Rivets on the M?

[SamirD]

I have several of these and recently after reading all the threads about bolt-modding, etc, turned some of mine on their side expecting to hear something--nada.  And this is from some from 88 all the way to 96.

I don't get it.  Did these rivets not break as much as the posts lead on that they do?

(None of my Ms feel funny at all besides the usual slight variation from one generation to the next.)

[ApocalypseMaow]

You just have one that is stilll in great condition!!! Most of the old ones have had a rough life and the plastic rivets break off... So when they are pulled apart you can fix them by bolt modding them... well that and if you take it fully apart the only way to get it back together is bolt modding... cause them rivets can't be redone!!!

[chyros]

In my experience the rivet damage horror stories are quite exaggerated. Apart from one particular specimen where 17 had snapped off, I've never found an M that was missing more than two, with most missing none at all. In fact I found two today that weren't missing any - unfortunately both had literally been underwater at the recyclers' (bin had been open in the rain), and one was missing the whole controller board :/ .

[fohat.digs]

One of my oldest Ms, a used 1986 1390131 came to me with no (zero) broken rivets, yet a "New-In-Box" SSK that I got from Cindy last year had 29 of 50+ rivets broken, including 17 at one end.

You can't predict how they will age, and also they can crack or let go without breaking off completely.

[Melvang]

I feel that outside of physical damage such as dropping and such, the leading cause of broken rivets is large temperature swings later in life.

[Elrick]

I feel that outside of physical damage such as dropping and such, the leading cause of broken rivets is large temperature swings later in life.

Can confirm, ultra high and low temps will degrade the physical properties of any 20+ year old keyboard.

[Melvang]

I feel that outside of physical damage such as dropping and such, the leading cause of broken rivets is large temperature swings later in life.

Can confirm, ultra high and low temps will degrade the physical properties of any 20+ year old keyboard.

No I mean with regards to numbers of broken rivets raring wildly across many years of production.  With temperature swings, you get thermal expansion, stuff grows and shrinks at calculated rates based on material, thickness, and temp change.  Fact: the Eiffel Tower is about 6 inches taller in the summer than the winter due to this.  When the plates and such get colder, the plastic gets brittle and the everything shrinks.  With different expansion rates, this puts more pressure on the rivets, and side pressure due to the plastic and steel having different expansion rates.  This extra pressure and the plastic being brittle from being cold, along with the plastic properties being permanently changed when they are melted to the back plate, in my opinion causes more broken rivets than physical abuse in an office environment.  If boards are stored in an unheated warehouse, how many temp swings are they going to take like this in the fall, spring, and winter?

[SamirD]

You just have one that is stilll in great condition!!! Most of the old ones have had a rough life and the plastic rivets break off... So when they are pulled apart you can fix them by bolt modding them... well that and if you take it fully apart the only way to get it back together is bolt modding... cause them rivets can't be redone!!!

Not one, almost 20.  I'm almost surprised since I got most of them by diving into a huge box of just 'keyboards' at a used computer show that would come to town every quarter.  I got them for an amazing 50 cents each!

In my experience the rivet damage horror stories are quite exaggerated. Apart from one particular specimen where 17 had snapped off, I've never found an M that was missing more than two, with most missing none at all. In fact I found two today that weren't missing any - unfortunately both had literally been underwater at the recyclers' (bin had been open in the rain), and one was missing the whole controller board :/ .

That seems to line up with what I'm finding with mine.

One of my oldest Ms, a used 1986 1390131 came to me with no (zero) broken rivets, yet a "New-In-Box" SSK that I got from Cindy last year had 29 of 50+ rivets broken, including 17 at one end.

You can't predict how they will age, and also they can crack or let go without breaking off completely.

I didn't think about them just cracking.  That's very plausible since they're melted on there.

I feel that outside of physical damage such as dropping and such, the leading cause of broken rivets is large temperature swings later in life.

Can confirm, ultra high and low temps will degrade the physical properties of any 20+ year old keyboard.

Great info!  Mine have had a pretty sheltered life I think with office temps for the last decade or so and probably an office life before being sold to recyclers prior to that.

[Kola93]

I think it's nice to have good bolts too right?

Can never be too robust.

[CPTBadAss]

I read the title and it sounded like the beginning of a bad standup routine.

[SamirD]

I think it's nice to have good bolts too right?

Can never be too robust.

I'm not too sure.  The rivet design was tested for longevity.  No one knows what will happen to bolts over years.  Screws do come loose, especially with constant vibration nearby.

I read the title and it sounded like the beginning of a bad standup routine.

hahaha!  Read it with a Jerry Seinfeld accent--that's even better!  )

[Kola93]

Designs for longevity in the late 70s probably won't hold up much to our modern standards. )

[SamirD]

Designs for longevity in the late 70s probably won't hold up much to our modern standards. )

I definitely don't think that's the case as the keyboard I'm typing on has proven.

[Melvang]

Designs for longevity in the late 70s probably won't hold up much to our modern standards. )

But Ms aren't a 70s design.  Model Fs *may* have had the design process started in the late 70s bit I think most of the keyboard designs from the 70s were beamspring, hall effect, Reed, or very vintage discrete switches.  Of these 99% have fallen away mostly due to improving tech and cost reduction for production.

[Kola93]

Designs for longevity in the late 70s probably won't hold up much to our modern standards. )

But Ms aren't a 70s design.  Model Fs *may* have had the design process started in the late 70s bit I think most of the keyboard designs from the 70s were beamspring, hall effect, Reed, or very vintage discrete switches.  Of these 99% have fallen away mostly due to improving tech and cost reduction for production.

Very true, I am only speculating, as the Ms came out in early 80s (1984?), but I don't think IBM would have designed something and left it on the drawing board for 5 years or so.

On the other hand, nothing that is mass produced today, with the exception of maybe the Realforce keyboards, have given me that robust, over-engineered feeling that these old school IBMs do.

[rowdy]

Open the case and brush our hand across the plate - see how many fall off!

[chyros]

Open the case and brush our hand across the plate - see how many fall off!

Or don't and they will continue to provide at least some mechanical support .

[SamirD]

Or just enjoy using it and don't worry.

[sean]

My model M is bolt modded since I got a really good deal on it, and honestly I wouldn't have gotten a model m without a bolt mod. But, the only reason for that is because I was never too interested in getting a model m to begin with. Almost everybody that owns a model m have the plastic rivets and they have no problem with them, but I do like the security I get with a bolt mod, imo.

[SamirD]

My model M is bolt modded since I got a really good deal on it, and honestly I wouldn't have gotten a model m without a bolt mod. But, the only reason for that is because I was never too interested in getting a model m to begin with. Almost everybody that owns a model m have the plastic rivets and they have no problem with them, but I do like the security I get with a bolt mod, imo.

But from what I've read, a bad bolt mod can also cause serious problems with keystrokes not registering, sticking keys, and more.

Hence, I've made my default action as--if it still working, don't mess with it.

[sean]

My model M is bolt modded since I got a really good deal on it, and honestly I wouldn't have gotten a model m without a bolt mod. But, the only reason for that is because I was never too interested in getting a model m to begin with. Almost everybody that owns a model m have the plastic rivets and they have no problem with them, but I do like the security I get with a bolt mod, imo.

But from what I've read, a bad bolt mod can also cause serious problems with keystrokes not registering, sticking keys, and more.

Hence, I've made my default action as--if it still working, don't mess with it.

Really! I didn't know that could be a problem. The dude I bought it from said it was his second bolt mod and was charging $100 for it. The keyboard types perfectly though so maybe I dodged a bullet.

"If it ain't broke don't fix it" is definitely wise and applies beyond model m's.

[SamirD]

My model M is bolt modded since I got a really good deal on it, and honestly I wouldn't have gotten a model m without a bolt mod. But, the only reason for that is because I was never too interested in getting a model m to begin with. Almost everybody that owns a model m have the plastic rivets and they have no problem with them, but I do like the security I get with a bolt mod, imo.

But from what I've read, a bad bolt mod can also cause serious problems with keystrokes not registering, sticking keys, and more.

Hence, I've made my default action as--if it still working, don't mess with it.

Really! I didn't know that could be a problem. The dude I bought it from said it was his second bolt mod and was charging $100 for it. The keyboard types perfectly though so maybe I dodged a bullet.

"If it ain't broke don't fix it" is definitely wise and applies beyond model m's.

Yeah because I was thinking, "hey why not bolt mod if it improves it", but then I read how sometimes if the 'bolts' are too tight there's issues, if the stem isn't bolted into straight, there's issues, if the stem gets broken, there's issues, and more.  It seems like it could cause a host of issues on a board that's otherwise still working fine.

Now, if a board is constantly not working, then a bolt mod might be just what it needs to get back to 100%.

[fohat.digs]

The dude I bought it from said it was his second bolt mod and was charging $100 for it.

My first bolt-mod was probably pretty much as good as my 10th. If you are careful and meticulous there is not much to mess up.

Now it is just a lot faster and easier, and I know exactly what to look out for.

There is no reason that the keyboard should not be at least as good as before. One of the great advantages is that you can "tune" the board just the way you want it.

But also, do not shy away from dismantling and reassembling it multiple times, especially on your first few tries. In fact, I don't think that I have ever, to this day, gone straight through the process and had it work just right on the first go.

[Bucake]

i bought a bolt-modded one for like $120 USD, because when reading up on restoring Model Ms, i realized i had like 2 of the 45 required tools.
having no knowledge is really, really annoying. all the tools and stuff, man i have no idea what they're talking about..
nevermind, i'll just take the easy, painful route!

[fohat.digs]

when reading up on restoring Model Ms, i realized i had like 2 of the 45 required tools.

Tools I use, in order, to bolt-mod a Model M:

7/32" nut driver (or socket or 5.5mm)
Xacto knife with chisel blade
Dremel with small spherical burr bit
Dremel with 1/16" drill bit
small philips-head screwdriver
4mm socket

That's it. I never use any kind of sandpaper or abrasive.

[Melvang]

i bought a bolt-modded one for like $120 USD, because when reading up on restoring Model Ms, i realized i had like 2 of the 45 required tools.
having no knowledge is really, really annoying. all the tools and stuff, man i have no idea what they're talking about..
nevermind, i'll just take the easy, painful route!

It is more painful to do it yourself with buying the tools.  Just a touch easier to space out the financial burden.

[SamirD]

I say just use it.  If your keyboard doesn't have any noises when held vertically and flipped over 180 degrees, then it's free of paper clips, big crumbs and rivet heads. 

If it does make noise, see if you notice anything unusual when typing.  If not, just type away and leave it be.