Topre switch feel

[themagicat]

I'm looking at getting a hhkb because I like the layout and form factor. How do the switches feel, in a very detailed way. Do the feel like there are only 2 positions, fully up and fully down like most rubber dome keyboards? Is there a force chart out there just like there is for cherry?
 Thx

[Bucake]

good feeling of oneness with cup rubber

[nmur]

Imagine a smoother linear cherry MX switch, but with a subtle initial resistance from the light rubber dome.

[Polymer]

I'm looking at getting a hhkb because I like the layout and form factor. How do the switches feel, in a very detailed way. Do the feel like there are only 2 positions, fully up and fully down like most rubber dome keyboards? Is there a force chart out there just like there is for cherry?
 Thx

They will feel just like a normal rubber dome keyboard except smoother and a lot more stable.  The bottom out will feel solid and exact without all the extra play...Responsiveness will feel excellent because it'll actuate before you hit bottom.  You also get a keyboard that is a lot more reliable...plus PBT keycaps...

[TimIsABat]

A very light bottom out even at 45g. Very smooth and solid feeling with a smooth travel after the initial press. I love my hhkb, and even prefer it to gaming over my FC660M with mx reds.

[themagicat]

Does it feel like it's "popping down"?

[Bromono]

Does it feel like it's "popping down"?

mmmm.. no not popping down, more like a pop up. after then initial actuation point at the top, it has a smooth light linear feel. But when it comes back up, it is quick and crisp.

[themagicat]

OK thx, I'm gonna get a hhkb pro 2 in a month or two now... When I have the money. Unless the pro 3 comes out(hopefully)

[Air tree]

OK thx, I'm gonna get a hhkb pro 2 in a month or two now... When I have the money. Unless the pro 3 comes out(hopefully)

I wouldn't hold your hopes up for the pro 3, PFU seems to be really quiet, or have just given up on the pro 3. 

[themagicat]

OK thx, I'm gonna get a hhkb pro 2 in a month or two now... When I have the money. Unless the pro 3 comes out(hopefully)

I wouldn't hold your hopes up for the pro 3, PFU seems to be really quiet, or have just given up on the pro 3. 

I can dream

[raymogi]

Become one of us, get the rubber dome, feel the smoothness.

[Hypersphere]

Here is a force-displacement curve for Topre switches:



And here is a force-displacement curve for a Cherry mx switch, the "clear":



I like the fact that Topre switches have a decrease in force after the actuation point. In contrast, Cherry mx switches have a continuing increase in force after the actuation point. The slope of force vs displacement is especially high in the mx clear switch. I tend to bottom out my keystrokes, and so I find mx clear switches rather fatiguing. Topre switches provide tactile feedback while being more relaxing to use.

In fact, to me, Topre switches feel a bit like playing a real piano. This sensation is not nearly as pronounced in a Topre switch as it is in an IBM beam spring, but the subtle sensation is there.

To put this into perspective, I would rank switches I have used  roughly as follows:

IBM capacitive buckling spring (Model F) > Silenced Topre 45g ~ Silenced Topre 55g > Topre 55g ~ Topre 45g > IBM membrane buckling spring (Model M) > Orange Alps > Monterey Blues> White Alps > Matias Click > Matias Quiet > Space Invader Clicky > Space Invader Tactile >>> Cherry mx (Brown > Green > Blue > Red > Black > Clear).

[byker]

Interesting order Hypersphere. Why do you dislike MX Clears so much? Have you tried ergo clears? I find it interesting because I prefer topre, but found that ergo clears were similar in feel (although still not as good as topre to me).

[daerid]

Just goes to show you how subjective switch feel is.

Personally my pref is: Topre 55g > Stock MX Clears > Topre 45g case-mounted > *

To each their own.

[Hypersphere]

Interesting order Hypersphere. Why do you dislike MX Clears so much? Have you tried ergo clears? I find it interesting because I prefer topre, but found that ergo clears were similar in feel (although still not as good as topre to me).

The distance between my rankings is not large. It's not that I dislike mx clears so much; it's that I like other switches much more.

I think the issue for me with mx clears is that I find them fatiguing, because I like to bottom out my keystrokes. I've seen many positive recommendations for ergo clears, and I would like to try them sometime. However, for now, I have more than enough keyboards with IBM Model F, Topre, and various Alps-type switches to keep me occupied.

[byker]

Interesting order Hypersphere. Why do you dislike MX Clears so much? Have you tried ergo clears? I find it interesting because I prefer topre, but found that ergo clears were similar in feel (although still not as good as topre to me).

The distance between my rankings is not large. It's not that I dislike mx clears so much; it's that I like other switches much more.

I think the issue for me with mx clears is that I find them fatiguing, because I like to bottom out my keystrokes. I've seen many positive recommendations for ergo clears, and I would like to try them sometime. However, for now, I have more than enough keyboards with IBM Model F, Topre, and various Alps-type switches to keep me occupied.

Oh okay, that makes sense. I didn't like stock clears much (found them fatiguing also), but ergoclears were quite an improvement in my opinion!

[themagicat]

One last question... If you press it slowly, can you make it so it activates without bottoming out(because I hate the feeling of lack of control when typing on a rubber dome... Where you can't stop the keypress at any point without bottoming out)

Basically how much does it feel like a standard rubber dome?

[SpAmRaY]

One last question... If you press it slowly, can you make it so it activates without bottoming out(because I hate the feeling of lack of control when typing on a rubber dome... Where you can't stop the keypress at any point without bottoming out)

Basically how much does it feel like a standard rubber dome?

If you want tactility where you don't have to bottom out, I recommend MX clears.

[raymogi]

Yeah you can. I don't bottom out anymore thanks to the Model M and I carried over that habit to my Topre boards and it still registers.

[Bucake]

anyone ever typed on a rubber dome board that felt better than a Topre board..?
the only contestant i've seen mentioned is some old Keytronic board, but the lower build/switch quality made Topre the winner in the end..

[themagicat]

Is it possible to not bottom out topres when typing? I usually bottom out... But hate the feeling on rubber domes where you HAVE to bottom out.

More specifically the feeling of once you break the initial resistance, the key pulls itself down all the way. Does a topre feel this way?

[themagicat]

Right now I'm deciding between the pok3r with clears and the hhkb if that helps at all.

[SpAmRaY]

Right now I'm deciding between the pok3r with clears and the hhkb if that helps at all.

Pok3r is a lot cheaper buy in to find out what you may or may not like.

[themagicat]

The only problem is that I won't be able to justify to those who live me buying 2 keyboards within a couple of years. Right now I'm leaning towards the hhkb, and will buy it if the topre switches don't feel like a standard membrane board in the way I mentioned in post 21.

[Polymer]

Is it possible to not bottom out topres when typing? I usually bottom out... But hate the feeling on rubber domes where you HAVE to bottom out.

More specifically the feeling of once you break the initial resistance, the key pulls itself down all the way. Does a topre feel this way?

Yes...it is the same rubber cup..you break the resistance and it falls off so you're forced to bottom out.

Does it feel exactly like a normal rubber dome keyboard?  No...the way the resistance falls off IS identical..but the solid feel and stability make it feel like a difference experience which is why some people really enjoy it..but if what you don't like feeling is that bubble breaking, this is a rubber cup, it'll do the same thing. 

[themagicat]

OK thx. I'll get a pok3r now.

[Altis]

One last question... If you press it slowly, can you make it so it activates without bottoming out(because I hate the feeling of lack of control when typing on a rubber dome... Where you can't stop the keypress at any point without bottoming out)

Basically how much does it feel like a standard rubber dome?

If you want tactility where you don't have to bottom out, I recommend MX clears.

I believe that is the sole purpose of the MX Clear switch. It remains the only switch I can type on normally and at high speeds without bottoming out.

OP, it doesn't sound much like you'll enjoy Topre, but who knows... They are quite nice to type on, and that's from many people who have experimented with a wide range of premium boards.

The happy compromise would be Zealios switches.

[rowdy]

Although it is possible to type without bottoming out (on an HHKB at least), why would you?  There is very little distance left to bottom out after actuation, and most of the force is required to reach the actuation point, after which the keys just naturally bottom out.

The feeling is quite nice - tactile, not clicky, smooth, pleasant thock sound.

[Polymer]

Although it is possible to type without bottoming out (on an HHKB at least), why would you?  There is very little distance left to bottom out after actuation, and most of the force is required to reach the actuation point, after which the keys just naturally bottom out.

The feeling is quite nice - tactile, not clicky, smooth, pleasant thock sound.

IMO, it isn't possible to type without bottoming out on Topre without completely sacrificing speed..I've seen people type in a really stupid and slow way to do it but what is the point?

You can type and lightly bottom..but who really cares?  You're not losing efficiency...and really, that whole sound of bottoming out is one of more pleasant aspects of Topre..

[rowdy]

Although it is possible to type without bottoming out (on an HHKB at least), why would you?  There is very little distance left to bottom out after actuation, and most of the force is required to reach the actuation point, after which the keys just naturally bottom out.

The feeling is quite nice - tactile, not clicky, smooth, pleasant thock sound.

IMO, it isn't possible to type without bottoming out on Topre without completely sacrificing speed..I've seen people type in a really stupid and slow way to do it but what is the point?

You can type and lightly bottom..but who really cares?  You're not losing efficiency...and really, that whole sound of bottoming out is one of more pleasant aspects of Topre..

+1

[Macsmasher]

Further, bottoming out on Topre isn't the same as Cherry. I initially moved to Topre because my finger joints ached at the end of a long day on Cherry browns because of the hard landing. Bottoming out on Topre is a soft landing. Since moving to Topre years ago, no more aching finger joints. Cherry is like jogging in your dress shoes. Topre is like jogging in running shoes.

[rowdy]

Further, bottoming out on Topre isn't the same as Cherry. I initially moved to Topre because my finger joints ached at the end of a long day on Cherry browns because of the hard landing. Bottoming out on Topre is a soft landing. Since moving to Topre years ago, no more aching finger joints. Cherry is like jogging in your dress shoes. Topre is like jogging in running shoes.

You can put O-rings on MX keycaps to dampen the bottoming out a bit.

[Grim Fandango]

Smooth with a satisfying "thock" that is not sharp but kind of muffled. That is pretty much it. Sounds simple, but I have not tried anything (alps or any of the Cherry MX's) that I like quite as much. One of the biggest advantages to me is that it is about as loud as any "normal" rubber dome keyboard. Since I use them both at work and in the living room, the Cherry MX's , even with o-rings, are simply not an option.

[themagicat]

I ended up getting the hhkb. And I am very happy with it! Mostly because of the layout. The switch bottom out feel is fabulous! Though I have noticed that some keys are rather scratchy... Does that go away after a bit of typing? It's not terrible but I would rather it not be. It's only really the fn key.

[daerid]

I ended up getting the hhkb. And I am very happy with it! Mostly because of the layout. The switch bottom out feel is fabulous! Though I have noticed that some keys are rather scratchy... Does that go away after a bit of typing? It's not terrible but I would rather it not be. It's only really the fn key.

It should, yeah. Fresh Topre domes are a bit sticky, and the capacitive spring underneath tends to stick and make the switches feel a bit scratchy. It usually goes away after about a week or so (on the outside).

[Dongulator]

I've never felt anything like it. But to me it feels like I'm typing on little puffs of air.

[Sinzz]

the CLOSEST example would be like typing on Cherry MX browns with the bump at the very top of the switch, but a lot smoother and bouncier.

[ander]

As actor Martin Mull once said, "Writing about music is like dancing about architecture." The same's true about KB switches.

You can talk about them from now till doomsday, but there's no substitute for actually trying them. It's a very complex, personal thing. It's not even about how they respond as discrete units, but rather how a set of them responds to your individual typing style, under all your fingers.

Anyway, TMC, I'm glad you're happy with your choice.

[Axollott]

Come to the bright side. It feels like baby cheecks. 

[derb2k2]

One of us! One of us!

But with all seriousness, I think Rowdy said it well with "natural" bottom out.