KB for fighting games

[jackiechan]

I'm interested in getting a new mechanical keyboard for fighting games.  I currenlty have a SteelSeries 6GV2 which is a Cherry Black keyboard, and this was the cheapest option at the time when I bought it some years back.

Two problems I have with this keyboard is how much force it requires to move the keys and I can never stop bottoming out no matter how long I use it.  If I focus on not bottoming out it doesn't last very long, and in high tension moments in a game it lasts even shorter.

I understand my choices are pretty much;
Cherry MX Reds
Cherry MX Browns

To give you an idea of what the purpose of this keyboard needs to be, there will not be very much holding keys down.  The main purpose will be activating and deactivating as quick as possible, which the blacks are okay at if you can stay in a very precise range.  An input required might be;
S->Hold S->A->Hold A->Release S->Release A     *2 (precisely done)

This is not very typical for input requirements users might have which is why I have to ask people who will have the best idea.  You're not really holding the buttons down in terms of time, but they need to be held very so slightly to produce a diagonal direction in between the S(down) and A(left).  And be done twice in a row as fast as humanly possible.

I'm favouring going with Cherry MX Browns so that I can feel confirmation of activation, but I worry when I'm dancing across the ASD+Spacebar that this might actually slow inputs down, however it could be quicker because the accuracy prevents bottoming out which I can't seem to stop doing after years of use.

As far as reds are concerned; I see there are these things called O-rings which can be applied to your keys.  The sound dampening is not what interests me, but the lowering of the amount of space before bottoming out is.  I read you can get one which removes 0.4mm(?) from the overall height of 4mm(?).  Then I thought about how many can be stacked on top of each other to to reduce the overall height of the keys.  That way it would possibly make the Cherry Reds more viable by removing the inefficiency for myself and get the same result as the browns with all the pros.  Just a whacky theorycraft.

I'm not an enthusiast and I see you talk about quite a bit more than the widely used Cherry switches, so maybe you have other ideas.  I'm not made of money and I live in the UK which makes things limited in whats feasible to obtain without making a big mistake.

[G-Dubs]

Give O-rings a try if it's something you're interested in. It might not give you what you're looking for, but it's far cheaper than buying a new board and being disappointed with it. I guess you could add more than one O-ring, but you have to make sure that you're not reducing the travel distance so far that you're no longer actuating the switch.

While you're looking, remember that you're not just stuck to the rings that are specifically made for keyboards. Try looking for size 008 O-rings. I bought a pack of 125 for $7.50 US, while a pack of WASD rings costs $15.

I hope that helps a bit. Good luck on your hunt!

[x9Memoriez]

Although arcade sticks will always be your best bet,  gateron clears sound good,  suuper light force to press down,  as well as the keyboards being made with it (varmilo) are great boards in their own right.  Topre switches have the fastest bounce back,  but are pricey

[Dernubenfrieken]

Although arcade sticks will always be your best bet,  cherry clears sound good,  suuper light force to press down,  as well as the keyboards being made with it (varmilo) are great boards in their own right.  Topre switches have the fastest bounce back,  but are pricey

You mean gateron clears.

[romevi]

People play fighting games with a keyboard?

[falkentyne]

I'm interested in getting a new mechanical keyboard for fighting games.  I currenlty have a SteelSeries 6GV2 which is a Cherry Black keyboard, and this was the cheapest option at the time when I bought it some years back.

Two problems I have with this keyboard is how much force it requires to move the keys and I can never stop bottoming out no matter how long I use it.  If I focus on not bottoming out it doesn't last very long, and in high tension moments in a game it lasts even shorter.

I understand my choices are pretty much;
Cherry MX Reds
Cherry MX Browns

To give you an idea of what the purpose of this keyboard needs to be, there will not be very much holding keys down.  The main purpose will be activating and deactivating as quick as possible, which the blacks are okay at if you can stay in a very precise range.  An input required might be;
S->Hold S->A->Hold A->Release S->Release A     *2 (precisely done)

This is not very typical for input requirements users might have which is why I have to ask people who will have the best idea.  You're not really holding the buttons down in terms of time, but they need to be held very so slightly to produce a diagonal direction in between the S(down) and A(left).  And be done twice in a row as fast as humanly possible.

I'm favouring going with Cherry MX Browns so that I can feel confirmation of activation, but I worry when I'm dancing across the ASD+Spacebar that this might actually slow inputs down, however it could be quicker because the accuracy prevents bottoming out which I can't seem to stop doing after years of use.

As far as reds are concerned; I see there are these things called O-rings which can be applied to your keys.  The sound dampening is not what interests me, but the lowering of the amount of space before bottoming out is.  I read you can get one which removes 0.4mm(?) from the overall height of 4mm(?).  Then I thought about how many can be stacked on top of each other to to reduce the overall height of the keys.  That way it would possibly make the Cherry Reds more viable by removing the inefficiency for myself and get the same result as the browns with all the pros.  Just a whacky theorycraft.

I'm not an enthusiast and I see you talk about quite a bit more than the widely used Cherry switches, so maybe you have other ideas.  I'm not made of money and I live in the UK which makes things limited in whats feasible to obtain without making a big mistake.

Ok trust me on this.
DO NOT BUY A KEYBOARD FOR FIGHTING GAMES.  PERIOD. JUST--DO--NOT.

Trust me.

If you have money for a "mechanical keyboard for fighting games" then buy an Arcade controller with sanwa joystick parts like any sort of madcatz TE xbox 360 compatible controller.
If you don't want an arcade stick, buy an Xbox controller (360 or One) and use that.

You'll be MUCH better off and MUCH happier.

For older games that usually supported keyboard input only and didn't support USB HID input (like older emulators), you needed an arcade controller with a keyboard emulation device through USB or PS2, like the old Ultimarc programmable encoders.  But with fighting games becoming mainstream on PC and ports being common, while something like this is still nice for arcade cabinets and "controller consoles," these days you're better off with an Xbox compatible fightstick or pad.  Even something like Windows MAME/MameUI64 or whatever version they encode now, supports full USB HID input.

[Melvang]

I'm interested in getting a new mechanical keyboard for fighting games.  I currenlty have a SteelSeries 6GV2 which is a Cherry Black keyboard, and this was the cheapest option at the time when I bought it some years back.

Two problems I have with this keyboard is how much force it requires to move the keys and I can never stop bottoming out no matter how long I use it.  If I focus on not bottoming out it doesn't last very long, and in high tension moments in a game it lasts even shorter.

I understand my choices are pretty much;
Cherry MX Reds
Cherry MX Browns

To give you an idea of what the purpose of this keyboard needs to be, there will not be very much holding keys down.  The main purpose will be activating and deactivating as quick as possible, which the blacks are okay at if you can stay in a very precise range.  An input required might be;
S->Hold S->A->Hold A->Release S->Release A     *2 (precisely done)

This is not very typical for input requirements users might have which is why I have to ask people who will have the best idea.  You're not really holding the buttons down in terms of time, but they need to be held very so slightly to produce a diagonal direction in between the S(down) and A(left).  And be done twice in a row as fast as humanly possible.

I'm favouring going with Cherry MX Browns so that I can feel confirmation of activation, but I worry when I'm dancing across the ASD+Spacebar that this might actually slow inputs down, however it could be quicker because the accuracy prevents bottoming out which I can't seem to stop doing after years of use.

As far as reds are concerned; I see there are these things called O-rings which can be applied to your keys.  The sound dampening is not what interests me, but the lowering of the amount of space before bottoming out is.  I read you can get one which removes 0.4mm(?) from the overall height of 4mm(?).  Then I thought about how many can be stacked on top of each other to to reduce the overall height of the keys.  That way it would possibly make the Cherry Reds more viable by removing the inefficiency for myself and get the same result as the browns with all the pros.  Just a whacky theorycraft.

I'm not an enthusiast and I see you talk about quite a bit more than the widely used Cherry switches, so maybe you have other ideas.  I'm not made of money and I live in the UK which makes things limited in whats feasible to obtain without making a big mistake.

Ok trust me on this.
DO NOT BUY A KEYBOARD FOR FIGHTING GAMES.  PERIOD. JUST--DO--NOT.

Trust me.

If you have money for a "mechanical keyboard for fighting games" then buy an Arcade controller with sanwa joystick parts like any sort of madcatz TE xbox 360 compatible controller.
If you don't want an arcade stick, buy an Xbox controller (360 or One) and use that.

You'll be MUCH better off and MUCH happier.

For older games that usually supported keyboard input only and didn't support USB HID input (like older emulators), you needed an arcade controller with a keyboard emulation device through USB or PS2, like the old Ultimarc programmable encoders.  But with fighting games becoming mainstream on PC and ports being common, while something like this is still nice for arcade cabinets and "controller consoles," these days you're better off with an Xbox compatible fightstick or pad.  Even something like Windows MAME/MameUI64 or whatever version they encode now, supports full USB HID input.

I second this post.

[rowdy]

A Model M would be good and solid - you could get a good swing with one of those.

The M122 is fantastic, although the case can be a bit brittle if it happens to connect with a bit of bone.

An SSK would make a good throwing keyboard - smaller, slightly lighter.

[x9Memoriez]

A Model M would be good and solid - you could get a good swing with one of those.

The M122 is fantastic, although the case can be a bit brittle if it happens to connect with a bit of bone.

An SSK would make a good throwing keyboard - smaller, slightly lighter.

Only once i finished reading this and thought a little bit about how i would grill you, did i get the joke.

Incredible.

[rowdy]

A Model M would be good and solid - you could get a good swing with one of those.

The M122 is fantastic, although the case can be a bit brittle if it happens to connect with a bit of bone.

An SSK would make a good throwing keyboard - smaller, slightly lighter.

Only once i finished reading this and thought a little bit about how i would grill you, did i get the joke.

Incredible.

Did I misunderstand the question, he asked innocently?

[Lpwl]

Give O-rings a try if it's something you're interested in. It might not give you what you're looking for, but it's far cheaper than buying a new board and being disappointed with it. I guess you could add more than one O-ring, but you have to make sure that you're not reducing the travel distance so far that you're no longer actuating the switch.

While you're looking, remember that you're not just stuck to the rings that are specifically made for keyboards. Try looking for size 008 O-rings. I bought a pack of 125 for $7.50 US, while a pack of WASD rings costs $15.

I hope that helps a bit. Good luck on your hunt!

Usually there is quite a difference of durometer between cheap O-rings and WASDKeyboards ones (60-90A = hard vs 40A = soft).

"Soft" O-rings (in 40A durometer) will help you quiet down your keyboard, eliminate almost all of the shock of bottoming out hard plastic to hard plastic and minimize the fatigue in your fingers during long typing and gaming sessions - which I think (especially in OP's case) should be more beneficial than harder ones.

[jackiechan]

I've been looking into your suggestions and falling for your jokes.  Looking at the alternative brands that I can't recall the name of, anything outside of Cherry are obscure  to obtain, prices go up and down or selection are small, especially when I need a keyboard that has the numpad keys.  I'm not bothered as much about the arrow keys.  Being compact is a preference because I don't have a desk.

I should've mentioned I already have an arcade stick.  It's not for me, I have gave it a lot of chances to the point I've bled money on them over the years without any results.  They're uncomfortable and take a lot of dexterity that I'll never be able to build.  I have a good feeling about getting an improved mechanical keyboard over what I currently have, it's satisfying and comfortable, but it does limit what games/characters you can play, that much is true.  I'll still have the arcade stick.

Looking into O-rings, I'm not familiar with speciality stores and to get them to the UK can end up costing up to 25-30$ from WASD if this one person is to be believed.  My selections from UK sellers are mostly cheap without much reliable information on hardness or material.  There is one seller with one batch of WASD O-rings but they're "0.2mm".  I'm not sure how many I can fit on a single key.  They state there are 40A-R & 40A-L, which reduces the overall travel distance of the key by different amounts, but have the same hardness.  They only have the smaller amount.

I've thought about a cheap plan of action being to buy some good O-rings, and Cherry MX sample kit so that I can test on my current keyboard and the potential keys themselves.  Thanks for your input.  I just need to find somewhere to buy them cheaply for UK.

[suicidal_orange]

PM me your address and I'll send you 4 of each of Lwpl's nice soft o-rings to test, he's not quite UK based but the € isn't doing great so the price should be much cheaper than ordering from the US

[jackiechan]

PM me your address and I'll send you 4 of each of Lwpl's nice soft o-rings to test, he's not quite UK based but the € isn't doing great so the price should be much cheaper than ordering from the US

I see the link in his signature.  That would be great actually.  I'll be sure to buy the ones I want from his store when I've made up my mind.  I would feel guilty otherwise for undermining his business.  I'll send the PM in a moment.  Thank you.

The Cherry MX sample kit is proving a bit harder to come buy.  Buying one with the keycaps attached to a piece of board costs £16 at least from Amazon UK.  There are sellers from east asia selling them for less than half that but delivery time, no key caps, and they're not attached give even a slight genuine feel.

[falkentyne]

Jackie,
Without derailing everything, do you mind telling me *which* arcade stick you have?
Because brands DO matter when it comes to those things. 

And why haven't you tried an Xbox controller?

I'm saying this because I've tried fighting games on keyboards.  Hell, I did that back in the 90's with primitive fighting games, and still remember having to deal with keyboard key lockout playing Star Control (Starcon 2) Melee mode with two people using one keyboard.
I can't see how using a keyboard can be in any way easier than a pad, except for the most basic of movements (Left right/right left).

[jackiechan]

I have tried;
MadCatz Tournament SFIV *2
HitBox (this is a quasi keyboard device with arcade buttons for movement)
Qanba Q4RAF
Hori DOA5
etokki
Xbox 360 Controller
PS3 Controller
Hori Fighting Commander Pro
PS4 controller

It's just not for me, 7 years I've picked them up and put them down again.  I still do like sticks if I was going to play an 8-way fighting game.  I am very weak with controllers because you need to play with just your thumb for moving, but plenty of people make it work.

The game I want to focus on is Street Fighter V.  The game is straightforward, and the inputs are lenient compared to the games of old you remember from growing up.  They know PC users are a target audience for the game.  Don't look into the game right now if it crosses your mind because it's incomplete with networking hiccups.

To give you an example;  pressing forward and backward at the same time will mean forward takes priority.  A more infamous one is the "pretzel" (like a Z) motion for uppercuts, where you press Forward -> Down -> Down+Forward;  this is easier on keyboard than any other device because you can simply hold D -> tap S and the game will detect that as the required motion.

There are pros and cons as with everything.  The diagonals are always going to be the worst part, which is why 8 way fighters that require lots of straight-to-the-corner inputs will not be as viable.  There are still people that swear by keyboard for Mortal Kombat because that game does not require diagonals apart from jumping forward or back.  Depends on the game and who you want to play as in the end.  Older games with extremely brutal requirements from the user are still going to be hectic, I do know where your concerns come from.

[x9Memoriez]

Are you willing to put together your own keyboard? Gateron clears being the switch ofc.

https://www.massdrop.com/buy/infinity-keyboard-kit

[Lpwl]

PM me your address and I'll send you 4 of each of Lwpl's nice soft o-rings to test, he's not quite UK based but the € isn't doing great so the price should be much cheaper than ordering from the US

I see the link in his signature.  That would be great actually.  I'll be sure to buy the ones I want from his store when I've made up my mind.  I would feel guilty otherwise for undermining his business.  I'll send the PM in a moment.  Thank you.

The Cherry MX sample kit is proving a bit harder to come buy.  Buying one with the keycaps attached to a piece of board costs £16 at least from Amazon UK.  There are sellers from east asia selling them for less than half that but delivery time, no key caps, and they're not attached give even a slight genuine feel.

Mmmh this is embarrassing ... suicidal_orange beat me to it !

Let's step up my game ~

>> I have this QWERkeys switch tester that is collecting dust and I also have all those switches I played with while I was still undecided.

- Linear switches : Cherry MX Black + Cherry MX Red + Gateron Black.
- Tactile switches : Cherry MX Clear + Cherry MX Brown.
- Clicky switches : Cherry MX Green + Cherry MX Blue + Cherry MX White.

(and a few other ones)

Just send me your info via PM and everything will be heading your way as of tomorrow morning !



PS : You can see the switch tester (in action) on this video.

[jackiechan]

@x9Memoriez
I have never heard of that site but I looked into it and the keyboard through some videos.  Definitely interesting, but I don't have the tools and I'm not a handyman for any kind of soldering and such.  The form I saw was a small one though that doesn't have a numpad. 

I forgot to mention - as usual - that the numpad is important because of the space it provides for both ends of the keyboard, and having 6 keys lined straight at the lower half of the keyboard.  This allows me to press 2 keys with 1 finger in each of the 3 columns, and dip my wrist below the keyboard without having to stretch my fingers, due to how I have a desk.  I hope that makes sense. 

I did search for standard keyboards with the gaterons.  The availability is fairly low for what I have to choose from.  There is a suspiciously cheap keyboard called the Rantopad MXX I can see which says it has them.  Form is missing the numpad though.  Mostly I'm looking at Amazon or eBay for selection because of good return policies for refunds and reasonably low prices.

My nuisance needs make everything difficult.

@Lpwl
Thanks very much.  When I've tested them out and made up my mind (hopefully), I will try to pass them onto someone else at no charge, ideally a user on this forum.  I didn't expect people to be willing to send me things at their own expense as someone just passing by. 

Both of you have saved me a great deal of money, I can't say that enough.  Thanks.

I do see people ask for keyboard advice so at least I'll know where to point them from now on.  Hopefully I'll have some decent thoughts to come back with when I get to try them out.

[robbles]

Quick actuation with fast rebound? You want Topre. I play Street Fighter with a stick as you should, but I've played a bit on my HHKB for fun and it works surprisingly well. The tactile bump gives you precision on your inputs and it's easy to double tap. It is also really good for shmups but I wish it was 55g actuation force rather than 45g for that. But yeah keyboard isn't ideal for fighting games. As long as you're just trying to have some fun and not getting serious you should be ok though. No tournament will let you play with a keyboard.

[appleonama]

wouldn't be better and cheaper to just buy a fighting stick 

[trizkut]

Quick actuation with fast rebound? You want Topre. I play Street Fighter with a stick as you should, but I've played a bit on my HHKB for fun and it works surprisingly well. The tactile bump gives you precision on your inputs and it's easy to double tap. It is also really good for shmups but I wish it was 55g actuation force rather than 45g for that. But yeah keyboard isn't ideal for fighting games. As long as you're just trying to have some fun and not getting serious you should be ok though. No tournament will let you play with a keyboard.

There is no 'best' controller;  just whatever you are most comfortable with.  EVO 2014 SF4 was won with a PS1 pad.

[robbles]

Quick actuation with fast rebound? You want Topre. I play Street Fighter with a stick as you should, but I've played a bit on my HHKB for fun and it works surprisingly well. The tactile bump gives you precision on your inputs and it's easy to double tap. It is also really good for shmups but I wish it was 55g actuation force rather than 45g for that. But yeah keyboard isn't ideal for fighting games. As long as you're just trying to have some fun and not getting serious you should be ok though. No tournament will let you play with a keyboard.

There is no 'best' controller;  just whatever you are most comfortable with.  EVO 2014 SF4 was won with a PS1 pad.

Agreed but you are limited to what tournaments will let you use. Never said it was impossible to use keyboard just not ideal. Wondering if OP has tried pad at all? It would definitely be more ideal than keyboard, though some tournaments are banning PS4 wireless pads now because how easy it is to accidentally pause a match on a system your pad is synced to. I had two different matches of mine accidentally paused last week because someone hit the home button on their pad.

[robbles]

This thread reminded me of the Hotbox style "fightstick" that I have thought about in a few years. http://www.hitboxarcade.com/products/ps4-pc-hit-box

Perhaps OP would be interested in something like this? They even make buttons that run off of Cherry switches now, so it is basically like keyboard but with a fighting game focuses layout.

[falkentyne]

Yeah.....where is the OP?
I think that's EXACTLY what he wants.
He just has to get the button layout done the way he would like it.

[jackiechan]

I included the HitBox in the small list of things I've tried over the years, I sold it a long time ago. 

The price for such a niche device including shipping costs more than even the very best keyboards.  The button placements are set in stone and spread out, while I like them to be very compact.  Inever had mechanical buttons, but in the old Sanwa version you could not rest your fingers on buttons, so your hands would have to be floating.  It's quite heavy and inconvenient.  If there was one good reason to have it, it would be to have a keyboard-like input device on your games console but I'm on PC.

[Melvang]

What about half an ergo dox or if the project gets picked back up the GH36.

[saxophone]

A few pointers:

Don't go with tactile switches. Unless if it's bucking spring or something. The tactile cherry and their clones feels like they're wasting considerable time during the return stroke since part that gives the tactile feel activates on both the down press and the return stroke.

I would for similar reasons not go for the super light ones such as Gateron red/clear as you want proper force in the springs to quickly push the switch back up during the return stroke. I don't know about fighters but the people I know who play rythm based games such as Osu! Mania etc would prefer linear switches with stronger springs since according to them keyboards that needed lighter keypresses are more prone to missed keystrokes especially during repeated tapping when you sometimes cant be sure of if you actually hit the key down past the accutation point on both strokes.

Gateron blacks with o-rings is what I'd suggest.

[jackiechan]

My sample of O_rings from suicidal_orange arrived so I've been messing around with them today.

First impression is that no matter what O-ring size out of the sample (there's 3 sizes), the results were better than the keyboard normally would be by default, and actually make linear switches good as you have the advantage with a bit of feedback as it gets tougher when you get to the O-ring, which conditions me to lift off the key a little.

I have all 3 on at the same time using different keys, so I can jump from one set to the other and compare quickly.

The toughest ones of the 3 are too tough.  I really start to feel it in my formarm very quickly just how much pressure I need to apply.  Not that it stops things working, it works fine.  They do feel like it makes me a bit slower overall, not by much.

The hard part is comparing the middle and lower strength O-rings, but I think it comes down to the lowest strength pretty much nullify the bottoming out just about, so they're not useless, and it feels like it retains all the advantages from before, except better.  The middle strength rings feel like a sweet spot right now but I don't know if it will slow me down.  Sometimes one or the other feels nice

I still only have cherry MX Blacks to test this on, though I do get to do a proper test because it's a full working keyboard.  I don't know how the results would be with a a lighter switch.  I still think the Blacks are too tough.  I had to drop using it for about a year because it was causing me a little pain in my pinky when playing games that require shift-hold.

I'll continue messing around with them everyday while I make up my mind until I get the keys Lpwl is sending, so I can try the other Cherry switches and the gaterons.


Trying to tackle some things people have recommended that I've been meaning to reply to (I don't want to bump the thread all the time);

The topre is very niche.  There is one second hand for a lowish price relative to what new ones would cost but then I would have to sell it if things don't work out.  I'll play it safe I think, and I don't think there's a way to sample them without the full board.

I don't want to need to assemble my own keyboard as I'm not very confident.  I also need a full lenngth board or at least with a numpad for the 6 straight keys.

Definitely have to rethink the tactile switches as has been recommended.  The o-rings give a pseudo-tactile feel that makes a big improvement to the linear switches and means I can concentrate on the screen even if I'm still applying a lot of pressure.  I've being sent a sample of the Gateron Black so I'll see what that's like.


I'll be messing around with this sample for a little bit each day, just to see if anything changes.

[suicidal_orange]

That was quick, especially with a plane/boat involved!  The fat o-rings aren't supposed to be for OEM caps but yours was a strange case so seemed worth a try.  Or not...

Love that pic with the trans cap, that little o-ring sure does get squished )

[thekkyon]

Screw them controllers, sign up for muay thai lessons.

[jackiechan]

I've been playing about an hour or more each day and it's a toss-up between the middle and smallest O-rings if using Cherry Blacks.  Can't make any further updates until I can sample the other switch types when they arrive.  I haven't dropped off the face of the earth, just waiting patiently.  Definitely a worthwhile thing to go through.

The O-rings are an absolute necessity in my opinion.  I begin to forget they're even there while the keyboard is a lot more comfortable to use and fairly quiet in comparison to how it used to be.  If anyone needs convincing.

[jackiechan]

The key samples that Lpwl posted arrived today.  I got around to trying them all out but most of them were decided over very quickly.  I didn't have my PC to type individual impressions and I needed the keyboard of my own to swap keys on to all of then.

So very quickly I managed to put aside all the niche types like Cherry Clears, Greens and all that jazz.  If there was one really good thing that came out of this test it was that it became very apparent to me that I would never be at home using the tactile types of Cherry Brown and Blue.  They're really nice keys to use, very satisfying, but I found myself missing inputs when I was doing typical presses, because of the jumps in pressure required.  They do feel great if you were using for typing as it is designed for.

So the two deciding types seemed to be;
Gateron Blacks
Cherry MX Reds

I couldn't figure it out about the Gaterons.  Sometimes they feel great, but other times they feel sluggish.  I already have the Cherry MX Blacks and I felt that these were too similar and might end up being a mistake of I invested in them.  They feel very accurate but like the Cherry Blacks the fataigue sets in my fingers and I feel it in my forearm while hammering away on them. 

The Cherry Reds are still not the perfect key that I can think of but they're the best from what I've tried.  They give me all the advantages of what I want without breaking my fingers like the Blacks.  I do have a slight worry that they are too sensitive but I'm hoping that I'll grow into it and that it's just bad habits picked up from using the Blacks for such a long time now.

I'm also going with the thinnest O-Rings that Lpwl sells (http://lpwl.bigcartel.com/product/thin-o-rings).  The middle ones feel that they took away the responsiveness of the Cherry Reds in my completely unscientific experiment, so I'm playing it safe and just getting that nimble little change.

I was asking a friend about mechanical keyboards and it turned out he has Cherry Blacks like me with all the same complaints, finger pains etc. so I'm ordering some O-rings for him too.  Also going to take the samples and the set of O-rings I'm giving them when I visit them during the next 2 weeks or so, for them to try the keys and see if they want to switch to a different switch type too.  After that I'll be happy to pass the free O-ring samples and the free switch type samples on to anyone else who would like to try them too.  If you're in Europe it should be fairly quick postage. 

And that's the story for now at least.  I've ordered the a keyboard and the O-Rings I'll need.  Keyboard I decided on for price and form is; http://www.amazon.co.uk/Cooler-Master-SGK-4020-GKCR1-UK-Professional-Mechanical/dp/B00AB7IWRK
It's fairly compact looking.  It also has 6 straight keys without a long-0 key at the bottom of the numpad, which makes it even easier for pressing 2 buttons vertically with 1 finger.  My only fear is that it might be two tight in the width because I'm used to the numpad being a little further across, but I'll see how it works out.

Thanks for all the advice.

[jackiechan]

I've been busy trying to get some real life things sorted past few weeks, but the offer is still up for anyone ideally in Europe I can post the switch and O-ring samples to if you post here that you want them then message me your address. 

Keyboard is great, only gripe is the "00" key on the numpad is just a macro for two 0 inputs, so I still haven't found a workaround to make it bindable as a standalone key.