Rather than necro a thread...

[Chao]

Many thanks again to all who bothered to read and respond to my last longwinded thread. I promise this one will be shorter. It's a two-part-er.
Considering what keyboard I should begin with for my peculiar LED-based mod, I'm now debating between Brown and Black switches. As before, I've read pretty much everything there is to read from the wiki and any related threads I could find. I just want to confirm summarize what I've learned, because it's been a lot of info to take in at once.


Cherry: Browns versus Blacks

The best summary was here, which explains it all quite well, better than the charts and graphs on the Cherry site. The main difference in Black/Brown is obvious: linear versus tactile. What gets me is attempting to grasp very the concept of a "Linear" key. I don't think I've ever used any sort of button that didn't have some increased force upon actuation. My imagination has absolutely nothing to go on.  

First Question
I am to understand there's literally no discernible recognition that the key was successfully pressed on the Blacks? As in, unless the application you're in takes some action based on the keypress, you have no way of knowing whether or not you are properly typing?

The obvious solution will be to just try each out and decide which I like better, and so I shall. However, trying it in a shop doesn't mean I get the experience of typing over a period of weeks and months.

Second Question
The force the key exerts back at you via Black Switches is at maximum a full 33% higher than the Browns. There was some mention in other threads about this causing some people pain over time but it was never discussed at length. Is this actually an issue? Is it actually a blessing in disguise if I have a particularly aggressive typing style?


Japanese Keyboard Shops, Cherry Reds, Etc.

So I'm in Japan right now, and will be through at least early/mid February. This led to a recommendation by rdjack21 that I go to a shop specializing in keyboards. Frankly, tearing through sidestreets of Akihabara in the Tokyo Winter (dry cold even the day after it rains -_-) seemed like a fool's venture, admittedly my entire project is one, but then Majestouch swooped in with the location of the Clevery shop. Many thanks there. I'll be hitting it this weekend to try and identify and test the Black vs. Brown feel.

Having said that... there was some discussion in threads I read, albeit months old, where people expressed interest in acquiring a few of the more obscure keyboards, particularly ones with the Cherry Red switches, including one from which I pull this post:

Thanks for that product code.

Here it is on Youtube!  The ending will make you sick with envy.

If anyone in the US is interested in obtaining a keyboard from this shop, I'd be more than happy to help a few of you out. I can lug a few back with me when I return to the US in February or if you don't mind taking postal risks, I can ship them from here. No cost other than what it takes me to buy and ship (or carry an extra suitcase across the Pacific).

I only say this because this forum has been so incredibly helpful in taking what was a hair-brained "what if" idea that was consuming me day and night and bring it almost within reach.

And while I'm still on the topic... Reds are linear switches like Black, but have less force ala Browns? Being that they're so rare (or new maybe?), most guides I've read don't bring them up at all.


Unimportant Curiosities:

I'm in a new world and learning new lingo here, thus it's best not to make assumptions. I see "POS" thrown around in a lot of threads, and when I do, all my mind registers is "piece of ****", which contextually works in some of the posts (sort of). However, since that Cherry Key guide I found so useful references the "Unique POS Terminal", I'm going to assume I'm missing out on some phrase/name/terminology. Explanation appreciated if my hunch is correct.

Also if Cherry is a German company, why are all of these products such huge hits/sold widely in Asia but such a pain to get elsewhere? Is it just a matter of being produced there or is it more market-driven?

[chimera15]

roflol POS= Point of Sale. like used on modern computerized cash registers. They usually have card swipes in them.

[1839cc]

POS = Point of Sale/Point of Service

If you see anything with Cherry clears please post pics. I might be interested if the price is right.

[AndrewZorn]

blacks are significantly harder to press
you know the key registers for sure when you bottom it out (it does register earlier, but you describe it like youd have to see it onscreen)

[timw4mail]

Linear switches increase in force linearly, so the only way to know that you've actuated the switch is to bottom out the switch, or actually know the distance it requires to actuate the switch. It's rather difficult to describe other than that.

[itlnstln]

After trying some Cherry blacks this weekend, I am not too excited about a linear switch; tactility really helps typing rhythm.  That said, Cherry reds still sound like a lot of fun.  I think my aversion to my experience was that the black are so heavy; I think a lighter spring would make linear switches a lot better.

[Chao]

Thanks regarding on the definition of POS.

blacks are significantly harder to press
you know the key registers for sure when you bottom it out (it does register earlier, but you describe it like youd have to see it onscreen)

Linear switches increase in force linearly, so the only way to know that you've actuated the switch is to bottom out the switch, or actually know the distance it requires to actuate the switch. It's rather difficult to describe other than that.

That makes perfect sense and is what I was imagining anyway, just thought it was such a foreign concept that I didn't want to make any assumptions (similar to the meaning of POS). Also seems like the buttons won't be as... "gratifying" to press, if that makes any sense, so while I'll still try it I guess I'm leaning Brown so I don't have to constantly be paranoid about not having pressed a key.

If you see anything with Cherry clears please post pics. I might be interested if the price is right.

My digital camera is utter crap. Even the steadiest hand in the west could not get a completely clear picture with it, but I'll do my best. Also will end up going back a few times before purchasing. Hopefully they're okay with me taking pictures if I explain it's to get them more customers ^_~

[itlnstln]

Ripster likened using Cherry blacks to pressing the button on a retractable pen (without clicking it all the way down, of course).  After trying them this weekend, I'll second this.  With the stiff springs, it's not that pleasant of an experience.

[1839cc]

My digital camera is utter crap. Even the steadiest hand in the west could not get a completely clear picture with it, but I'll do my best. Also will end up going back a few times before purchasing. Hopefully they're okay with me taking pictures if I explain it's to get them more customers ^_~

Haha yeah hope they are reasonable like that. Thanks.

[Chao]

I'm actually living with two right now. Admittedly, none of the people around here are very typical examples of their countrymen.

[itlnstln]

Jesus.  He's due any day now.  I hope it's a boy.
 
 
I almost want to stick a pin in him and see if he deflates.

[leos]

Bwahahah!  I just like giving Germans a hard time.

Here's the Cherry Corp USA District Manager of Keyboard Sales

What cracked me up about Germans in Bali is they always go out early in the morning and reserve the best spots on the beach.

sure ripster...

typical ami

ugly one

choose your alter ego

[leos]

I gotta rent this one.  

Show Image

Well, Now we Know what the ugly Americans want to be.:smokin:

[itlnstln]

Who? This guy? I think I'll pass.

[itlnstln]

Well, Now we Know what the ugly Americans want to be.:smokin:

Who?  You mean this guy?  I think I'll pass.
 

[Chao]

When I was eight or so my sister, who was around five, got a Barbie McDonalds something-or-the-other for Christmas. It had a single button, which when pressed, exclaimed "Welcome to McDonalds! May I take your order?" from a very poor quality speaker. However, I did not figure that out until many years later.

The first time I heard this sound was while awaking from a cookie-and-milk-induced nap, and subsequently misunderstood the words. For the next ten thousand button presses, I registered the voice as saying "We're going to the Doctor! Borrow a quarter?"

[elbowglue]

I have used cherry black switches at work, also cherry brown switches as well.  Cherry brown switches are the best resistance for touch typing, and typing quickly.  Cherry blacks are the best switches for banging really hard.

IMHO, cherry blacks would be great for point of service keyboards that should be able to stand up to abuse, banging on, and don't require a lot of typing on (if you only need to press a few keys).  If you need to type a lot or paragraphs of stuff, you want cherry browns.

The springs on cherry blacks really really tough to press.  They are like Dell AT101W's but they feel more resistant, less tactile, a little less gritty.

[keyb_gr]

IMHO, cherry blacks would be great for point of service keyboards that should be able to stand up to abuse, banging on, and don't require a lot of typing on (if you only need to press a few keys).

Perfect for a PC pool.

The springs on cherry blacks really really tough to press.  They are like Dell AT101W's but they feel more resistant, less tactile, a little less gritty.

In other words, they are quite different from the Dell. My AT102DW is nothing like a G80-3000HAD, aside from being in a similar class in terms of force. With the Dell I feel like banging my fingers into the metal plate all the time (not a good feeling), and the friction from the tactile leaves disturbs smooth typing even more... I dug it out to write this. The seemingly lightweight keycaps make for a lightweight sound, too (others have commented on them as being detrimental to the typing experience). A G80-3000HAD is really nice compared to that. Model M? Heaven.

I think my dream keyboard would have a mix of Cherry switches... maybe blues or browns for the alphanumeric section, blacks for modifiers, arrow keys, space and Esc, something like that.

[itlnstln]

Kathunka thunka.

That's almost exactly what it sounds like.  Mine sticks with the lighter spring.  I think I am going to switch the stem, too.

[1839cc]

I've got a Cherry Clear for the spacebar in this SPOS Brown Cherry keyboard - pretty nice!  Kathunka thunka.

Not gray like the 11800?

[1839cc]

I see. Where did you get the clear switch?

[1839cc]

Oh, okay thanks.

[Chao]

So my family came to see Japan for the holidays and I was busy showing them around. I finally hit the Clevery store and alas, the very English-layout Filco I finally settled on had sold out and, according to the clerk I spoke with, they will not be ordering any more. I'm calling BS on that and will check back in two weeks.

Also I was shocked how hard the Black stem switches were to press. I had brought a few paragraphs printed out to try just typing as fast as I could, but when on the boards with Blacks I didn't even make it halfway through before my fingers were saying "Take me out, coach!" Favorite board of all that I tried was a Cherry one with the Red stem switches. It felt like typing on air, like the Brown but without even the slight bump. The shame is that the Cherry boards with them had such a massive depth that they were at least 1.5x the size of any other keyboards there.

POS = Point of Sale/Point of Service

If you see anything with Cherry clears please post pics. I might be interested if the price is right.

Alas, they didn't seem to have anything with Clears, nor Blue. There were a lot of boards labeled has having "ZERO" switches which I assume are the Fukka White ones.

[ricercar]

I agree with Chao's Cherry black findings. I have a board that I find unusable because of the Cherry blacks, and it's otherwise a dream board: Backlit, waterproof, tenkeyless, trackpad. I'm planning to replace the black springs with brown springs to check out the fabled poor-man's Cherry red. Until I do something like that, the board is too stiff to use for even as long as this message.

[Chao]

Alright, screw getting everything perfect because there are always trade-offs, eh? Going to get two boards: The Tenkeyless NKRO Filco with Browns and then one of the English-layout Cherry Red-switch boards. One is conveniently small and the other is inexcusably huge. Both feel great to type on.

Only final thought regards coatings/finish on the keys, specifically blank keys. Having read the entire Filco Coatings Wear thread as well as the Blank Filco Keys guide, I'm left with an uncertainty about the difference between "finish" and "coating" and which one wears off to create the shiny effect. Frankly, I don't care if all of my keys are shiny, even from the get-go, I just want to avoid things looking inconsistent. Thus with regards to getting blank keys on a Filco the two options are to get the "coated" ones that come with the FKBN87M/NPEK Otaku at elitekeyboards or just get the board from down the road and order the replacement blank key set which "are not specially coated as the original keycaps on your FILCO keyboard are, but they do have a molded matte texture that has a similar appearance".

Between those two, I'm assuming both will eventually wear down to a "shiny" state, but is there any difference in the end result? For instance, when the coated keys wear down one might imagine that the shine stands out a bit more than keys that were never coated in the first place. Am I correct in thinking this or do I not properly understand the relationship between coating and texture?

[AndrewZorn]

touchy subject.  you are thinking the right way but "no one is really sure" whether it makes a difference in the end.

where is this available cherry red board?

[Chao]

touchy subject.  you are thinking the right way but "no one is really sure" whether it makes a difference in the end.

Ah, I was wondering if that might be the case... well then I'll just buy the Filco here and the replacement keycaps later since it's cheaper that way.

where is this available cherry red board?

As explained in my opening post, I currently am living in Tokyo so I can take a stop on my way home past the Clevery shop, which has a decent handful of them. Packing space permitting, I'm also willing to bring a spare back with me to the states in the spring if anyone is interested in getting one for themselves.

[AndrewZorn]

need i break out the [few] pictures?  the discussion on this was lengthy and mostly unsolved (as i remember, but i didnt stick with it until the end).  to completely discredit the coating is a bit much.  it wont prevent or necessarily create shininess, but he did mention unevenness.

[AndrewZorn]

(not trying to start this over again)

so other than for advertising and out-of-the-box prettiness, what purpose does the coating serve?  who would WANT the coating?

[Chao]

So the wearing down of the matte causes shine because the surface becomes smooth and reflective rather than dissipating the light in various directions. What is the purpose of a coating then? Hell, I just realized I don't even know what type of "coating" we're talking about here, I've just seen the word thrown around and taken for granted, kind of like POS. While I assume it is supposed to serve some protective function, for all I know it could be an antibacterial coating.

[Chao]

Indeed, it is a finer and perhaps senseless point. Seems to be of no concern if it's mainly with regards to the ink and I'm looking at using blank keys. My concern was that the shiny would stand out more on keys without any lettering to distract from the difference in texture across the key.

[msiegel]

did we decide the filco zero caps are uncoated?

because part of my left Alt just wore off.

i'm not bothered, just thought you'd want to know. this key gets heavy use, and because of its location i tend to press it with the side of my thumb, so there's a lot of fingernail contact.

seen though magnifying glass.

[microsoft windows]

That key's probably coated. Here's a photo of a coated key that came off a very well-used Dell keyboard I have.

[msiegel]

To tell if it's coated or not pull the key and turn over to look for water marks.

i pulled Scroll Lock and Pause, and didn't see any water marks

[AndrewZorn]

yes.

even if you guys are 100% right... which i disagree with, i would rather NOT have it, because of the wear issues (albeit uncommon, even mythical)

but more importantly,
we could all be saving money if they didnt spend that extra R&D and materials and labor on this stupid process.

[msiegel]

dye-sub ftw

[Chao]

but more importantly,
we could all be saving money if they didnt spend that extra R&D and materials and labor on this stupid process.

Most of it would just be kept as profit anyway ^_~

[microsoft windows]

I've used and serviced HP's laptops and there are three things I don't like about them.

1. Crappy screens
2. Crummy latches that when they break, you have to take the entire laptop apart. I mean the entire thing!
3. Their trackpoints don't feel as good as Dell and IBM ones.

[Chao]

Upon further investigation and price matching today I discovered that the Cherry board I was considering, although huge, is actually an NKRO board. So taking it one step at a time, screw the FILCO for now. I am now the proud owner of a Black, English-layout G80-3600.



What I find curious is all of the labeling of "Made in Germany" and even "USA" when apparently/supposedly these Red-stem boards are hard to get a hold of in the west? If anyone is interested I could write a small review of it, although my camera is pretty crappy and my opinion on these matters is a bit unrefined*.

*Aside from the hours I spent typing in various stores over the past week making the staff wonder "What is this weird foreigner doing and why doesn't he just buy something already?"

[ch_123]

It would be great if Elitekeyboards could stock those. I'd say they'd sell quite well given the interest in Red switches around here.

[Chao]

It was pretty cheap, too. Only ran me ￥6980 (about 70 USD), whereas the cheapest NKRO FILCO around was at least ￥1000 more and tenkeyless. Also definitely feels better than the Black linear switches. The only major disadvantage I've found so far, aside from the size, is the lack of FJ nubs. It's particularly odd considering that the Numpad 5 has one.

[ch_123]

The SGIs have those too, albeit on the 'right' keys.

[timw4mail]

The SGIs have those too, albeit on the 'right' keys.

Right according to who? Either way it's arbitrary.

[Mental Hobbit]

What I find curious is all of the labeling of "Made in Germany" and even "USA" when apparently/supposedly these Red-stem boards are hard to get a hold of in the west? If anyone is interested I could write a small review of it, although my camera is pretty crappy and my opinion on these matters is a bit unrefined*.

You can't even get brown Cherrys in Germany. Black, blue and clear is easy, even Amazon carries those. Anything else, we'd have to reimport from Asia too.
 
Right now I'm waiting for a packet from the US, containing a Japanese Keyboard with German switches, assembled in Taiwan. Only way I'm aware of to  get a board with brown Cherries in Germany. *facepalm*

And yes, I'm interested in a review.

[timw4mail]

You can't even get brown Cherrys in Germany. Black, blue and clear is easy, even Amazon carries those. Anything else, we'd have to reimport from Asia too.
 
Right now I'm waiting for a packet from the US, containing a Japanese Keyboard with German switches, assembled in Taiwan. Only way I'm aware of to  get a board with brown Cherries in Germany. *facepalm*

And yes, I'm interested in a review.

Isn't living in such an outsourced world weird?

[ricercar]

Red Cherry Review. Yeah!