Author Topic: WhiteFox Keyboard  (Read 5833 times)

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Offline warensemble

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WhiteFox Keyboard
« on: Sun, 31 July 2016, 05:22:02 »
First of all, Hello! I am new to the forum, though I have been reading for quite some time, I have never posted. The GH community is fantastic and you guys make this expensive hobby all the more fun. I own a Ducky Shine 5 and a Filco Majestouch 2 TKL with doubleshot PBT caps...both have their pros and cons, but I generally like them.

Now to my question..

I was looking at the WhiteFox drop on Massdrop and am trying to decide if I would prefer that or the Pok3r as I am looking for something that is a smaller formfactor than even my Filco. The WhiteFox looks very intreaguing to me, however the only concern I have is the small right shift and whether or not it is difficult to get used to or adversely affects typing experience. This board would be used for everything but gaming. Is the small shift akward in any way or easy to get used to? Is it even noticeable?

Thanks!

Offline rowdy

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Re: WhiteFox Keyboard
« Reply #1 on: Sun, 31 July 2016, 05:49:04 »
Welcome to Geekhack!

Although I don't have a WhiteFox, I do have an HHKB, which has a similarly smaller right Shift.

I don't have any issues typing, or even gaming, on the HHKB.  In fact I find that I use the left Shift almost exclusively, but when I do use the right Shift I tend to press it on the left side right near the /? key.
"Because keyboards are accessories to PC makers, they focus on minimizing the manufacturing costs. But that’s incorrect. It’s in HHKB’s slogan, but when America’s cowboys were in the middle of a trip and their horse died, they would leave the horse there. But even if they were in the middle of a desert, they would take their saddle with them. The horse was a consumable good, but the saddle was an interface that their bodies had gotten used to. In the same vein, PCs are consumable goods, while keyboards are important interfaces." - Eiiti Wada

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Offline b4d_tR1p

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Re: WhiteFox Keyboard
« Reply #2 on: Sun, 31 July 2016, 05:53:44 »
me too, and welcome to GH  :thumb:

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
GCS/CC d-(--)>---x s:-(--)>--- a C++++(++++)>++ UBLC++++(+++)$>++ P++ L+++++(+++++)>+++++ E---(---)>--- W+++(+++)>+++ N+++ o++ K-- w O M++ !V- PS+++(+++)>+++ PE+++(+++)>+++ Y+++(+++)>+++ PGP++ t+ 5 X+ R tv- b++ DI++++ D+++ G++++ e+++ h- r++ y+++
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

Offline zslane

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Re: WhiteFox Keyboard
« Reply #3 on: Sun, 31 July 2016, 10:54:32 »
The WhiteFox is a nifty design and I doubt the size of the right Shift key would pose any problems, but of course only you can decide for sure what works for you (and what doesn't). Unfortunately, I'm not sure how you can determine for certain one way or the other without actually trying it under actual typing conditions.

I have a Pok3r (two in fact; one for work and one for home) and I find it to be perfect for the very specific purpose it serves: it is the keyboard for my iPad. Anything wider would be cumbersome. Anything smaller would be too limited. For me, the Pok3r is ideal because it has the exact same layout as my Filco Majestouch-2 boards (the same switches too), just reduced to "iPad size".

I like the layout of the arrow cluster on the WhiteFox (Aria layout), but it adds another inch and a half to the width, which is too much for what I would be using it for, so I choose to stick with my Pok3r with no regrets.

Offline Tactile

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Re: WhiteFox Keyboard
« Reply #4 on: Sun, 31 July 2016, 11:00:09 »
I think that, of the two keyboards you've mentioned, for most people the small right shift would be much easier to get used to than the function layer arrow keys on the Pok3r. I have a Pok3r and it's my favorite MX board but the layout isn't for everyone.
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Offline zslane

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Re: WhiteFox Keyboard
« Reply #5 on: Sun, 31 July 2016, 11:23:57 »
Yeah, if it's not going to be paired with an iPad, the WhiteFox definitely wins over any 60% board, including the Pok3r which I really like. But then, pretty much anything larger than a 60% wins over any 60% in that case.

I mean, once you open the conversation to 65%, why not consider 75%? Or a TKL? I find that unless you are using a mech board with something intrinsically small like an iPad (or maybe a laptop), there are no compelling reasons to discard keys just to save space.

Actually, I think the ideal use for a WhiteFox is as a replacement for a laptop keyboard. Most laptops are big enough that a 65% fits just right, and the convenience of the dedicated nav keys really shines here. But anything smaller than a laptop and I feel you're definitely in 60% territory; anything larger and you're in TKL or full-size territory (I prefer full-size myself; I have no use for TKL whatsoever).

Offline TypingNoob

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Re: WhiteFox Keyboard
« Reply #6 on: Sun, 31 July 2016, 11:30:10 »
If you don't mind me asking, I just got my Custom Varmilo Va87mr with Cherry Mx Clears for typing(i type 8 hours a day for my job) and my B.fake(TaoBao) with gateron reds for gaming this week. My question is, i'm in need of a MKB for travelling. Would the White Fox with zealios be a good choice?

Offline SBJ

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Re: WhiteFox Keyboard
« Reply #7 on: Mon, 01 August 2016, 08:35:55 »
I regret getting my pok3r.
I would've much preferred a WhiteFox keyboard.

Offline AnTi PRO

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Re: WhiteFox Keyboard
« Reply #8 on: Mon, 01 August 2016, 09:30:08 »
I saw that drop as well and I am really considering grabbing the White Fox.

I saw how popular the Pok3r is, but I like the arrow keys on the Fox imo

I can't find anything I don't like about it yet.

Offline kasakka

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Re: WhiteFox Keyboard
« Reply #9 on: Mon, 01 August 2016, 10:03:56 »
I have both a Pok3r with MX Browns and a custom 60% keyboard with 65g Zealios. I'm on the fence about getting the Whitefox.

The benefits of the WF over Pok3r are much better programmability and the separate arrow keys + a few extra keys on the right hand side. If you can solder getting the Zealios is also something I highly recommend as those switches feel great. On the other hand the Whitefox configurator is more limited than some other options. For example it doesn't yet allow moving the mouse cursor from the keyboard or proper macros like my custom Satan GH60 board with EasyAVR does. This will most likely be fixed when the configurator is updated but who knows when that happens.

The Pok3r is good value for the money, but it is a pain in the ass to program. I do like how they implemented an arrow key mode where the right Fn,Pn,Ctrl and Shift keys become arrows when using the Win+R.Alt+Spacebar. I have setup the same keys permanently as arrow keys on my custom board because I never use the modifiers on that side so it kinda replaces the separate arrow keys you find on the Whitefox.

Don't worry about the small Shift though. I have that on my custom board (with an extra 1u key next to it) and it is more pleasant to use than the full size one.

Offline AnTi PRO

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Re: WhiteFox Keyboard
« Reply #10 on: Mon, 01 August 2016, 10:33:01 »
As a noob I feel like the WF is the best choice for sure. I haven't pulled the trigger yet but it's been on my mind since I saw the drop....I reaaaaaaly want it.


Offline garage_logician

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Re: WhiteFox Keyboard
« Reply #11 on: Mon, 01 August 2016, 13:26:33 »
I bought my first mech less than a year ago, have an Infinity Ergo on the way and immediately jumped on the White Fox drop!  In my collection I have a CODE with Clears, a V80 with Mattias quiet click and a no name with MX blacks.  I am hoping that Dox and the Fox ( both with Zealios ) help me find keyboard Nirvana.  :-)

Offline warensemble

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Re: WhiteFox Keyboard
« Reply #12 on: Mon, 01 August 2016, 13:42:21 »
I have both a Pok3r with MX Browns and a custom 60% keyboard with 65g Zealios. I'm on the fence about getting the Whitefox.

The benefits of the WF over Pok3r are much better programmability and the separate arrow keys + a few extra keys on the right hand side. If you can solder getting the Zealios is also something I highly recommend as those switches feel great. On the other hand the Whitefox configurator is more limited than some other options. For example it doesn't yet allow moving the mouse cursor from the keyboard or proper macros like my custom Satan GH60 board with EasyAVR does. This will most likely be fixed when the configurator is updated but who knows when that happens.

The Pok3r is good value for the money, but it is a pain in the ass to program. I do like how they implemented an arrow key mode where the right Fn,Pn,Ctrl and Shift keys become arrows when using the Win+R.Alt+Spacebar. I have setup the same keys permanently as arrow keys on my custom board because I never use the modifiers on that side so it kinda replaces the separate arrow keys you find on the Whitefox.

Don't worry about the small Shift though. I have that on my custom board (with an extra 1u key next to it) and it is more pleasant to use than the full size one.

Interesting. How would you say the Zealios feel compared to the MX browns? I can fly on the browns but sometimes it feels like they are very slightly too light or the bump is just not pronounced enough so I make mistakes a lot.

The only thing holding me back are the numerous complaints and problems that came from I think it was the first drop of this board. There are people complaining about off-centered keys and extremely long wait times, which is a bit worrysome.

Offline kasakka

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Re: WhiteFox Keyboard
« Reply #13 on: Mon, 01 August 2016, 14:09:45 »
I have both a Pok3r with MX Browns and a custom 60% keyboard with 65g Zealios. I'm on the fence about getting the Whitefox.

The benefits of the WF over Pok3r are much better programmability and the separate arrow keys + a few extra keys on the right hand side. If you can solder getting the Zealios is also something I highly recommend as those switches feel great. On the other hand the Whitefox configurator is more limited than some other options. For example it doesn't yet allow moving the mouse cursor from the keyboard or proper macros like my custom Satan GH60 board with EasyAVR does. This will most likely be fixed when the configurator is updated but who knows when that happens.

The Pok3r is good value for the money, but it is a pain in the ass to program. I do like how they implemented an arrow key mode where the right Fn,Pn,Ctrl and Shift keys become arrows when using the Win+R.Alt+Spacebar. I have setup the same keys permanently as arrow keys on my custom board because I never use the modifiers on that side so it kinda replaces the separate arrow keys you find on the Whitefox.

Don't worry about the small Shift though. I have that on my custom board (with an extra 1u key next to it) and it is more pleasant to use than the full size one.

Interesting. How would you say the Zealios feel compared to the MX browns? I can fly on the browns but sometimes it feels like they are very slightly too light or the bump is just not pronounced enough so I make mistakes a lot.

The Zealios are much, much smoother and have a more "bouncy" feel to them. The MX Browns are easier to bottom out and the tactile bump feels scratchy on them. Feelwise these are closest to the 45g Topres I've been able to get on MX style switches so far.
« Last Edit: Tue, 02 August 2016, 10:42:11 by kasakka »

Offline warensemble

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Re: WhiteFox Keyboard
« Reply #14 on: Tue, 02 August 2016, 07:57:35 »
Anyone happen to know how thick the keycaps are for the WhiteFox?

Thanks

Offline Ciemnika

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Re: WhiteFox Keyboard
« Reply #15 on: Tue, 02 August 2016, 09:03:43 »
I mean, once you open the conversation to 65%, why not consider 75%? Or a TKL? I find that unless you are using a mech board with something intrinsically small like an iPad (or maybe a laptop), there are no compelling reasons to discard keys just to save space.
Going to have to disagree strongly with this. There are a plethora of completely valid reasons that a small keyboard is in fact superior to a large keyboard in a variety of circumstances. Let's just take the simplest case of a TKL first. If you never use the number pad, why would you have it? Unless you do numeric data entry or a lot of calculatoring on your computer, I can't imagine the number pad gets used.  If it's not used, it's not needed. But, let's look at it differently, not just as a case of "it isn't worse if this is missing."
  • By removing the number pad, you gain back desk space, which you can use for other things.
  • By removing the number pad, you are able to bring the mouse closer to the keyboard, thereby improving ergonomics and convenience.
If space is at a premium, superfluous stuff is always worse.
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Offline jameslr

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Re: WhiteFox Keyboard
« Reply #16 on: Tue, 02 August 2016, 09:03:59 »
Anyone happen to know how thick the keycaps are for the WhiteFox?

Thanks

https://www.massdrop.com/buy/the-whitefox-keyboard

There is an image of them flipped over if you scroll down most of the way thru the page.
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Offline TypingNoob

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Re: WhiteFox Keyboard
« Reply #17 on: Tue, 02 August 2016, 10:50:38 »
I was debating between this and the pok3r as my travel board. In terms of build, is the white fox better than the pok3r? Aren't they both aluminum case/plate boards wtih thick PBT keycaps?

Offline zslane

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Re: WhiteFox Keyboard
« Reply #18 on: Tue, 02 August 2016, 11:22:02 »
I mean, once you open the conversation to 65%, why not consider 75%? Or a TKL? I find that unless you are using a mech board with something intrinsically small like an iPad (or maybe a laptop), there are no compelling reasons to discard keys just to save space.
Going to have to disagree strongly with this. There are a plethora of completely valid reasons that a small keyboard is in fact superior to a large keyboard in a variety of circumstances. Let's just take the simplest case of a TKL first. If you never use the number pad, why would you have it? Unless you do numeric data entry or a lot of calculatoring on your computer, I can't imagine the number pad gets used.  If it's not used, it's not needed. But, let's look at it differently, not just as a case of "it isn't worse if this is missing."
  • By removing the number pad, you gain back desk space, which you can use for other things.
  • By removing the number pad, you are able to bring the mouse closer to the keyboard, thereby improving ergonomics and convenience.
If space is at a premium, superfluous stuff is always worse.

I do understand the whole "why have it if I don't use it?" argument. I'm sure that's why some people gravitate to 60% boards as their main drivers. Why have keys they have no use for staring at them all day, right?

Well even though I don't use every single key on a full-size board, they still do serve an aesthetic purpose. They show off a beautiful keycap set better than a smaller board. There is simply no way, for example, that a TKL or 60% board can display a Space Cadet set in all its glory. In fact, nothing short of a 108-key board will do, as far as I'm concerned. And I don't buy keycaps sets that aren't worthy of a full 104-key display platform.

And the space saving argument is one I just never understood when talking about the desktop computer environment. You'd think there was a sudden shortage in basic desk space in the world. As if one day we all woke up and suddenly there was no room for our mice. The truth is that full-size keyboards have been getting smaller over the years, thanks to narrow bezels and less empty space between key sections. If anything, modern keyboards have been freeing up desk space without sacrificing keys. There was room enough for a mouse back when everyone was using their Model Ms, and there's more than enough room for a mouse today with keyboards like a Filco Majestouch-2 or a Varmilo VA108.

I think what has happened is that we've become so accustomed to mobile computing nowadays that the current generation of computer users can't abide a typing platform any larger than a laptop's. I am probably a dinosaur in this respect. I'm not a novelist or a blogger or a student. I have no need for mech keyboards to be small and portable. And the smaller they are, the less useful they are to me; this Pok3r I am typing on is only useful to me for writing forum posts, and so that's pretty much all that I do with it.

Offline warensemble

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Re: WhiteFox Keyboard
« Reply #19 on: Tue, 02 August 2016, 23:38:53 »
Took the leap and joined the drop with the Zealios and the True Fox layout. Will be my first time putting one together. Long way off though =x.

Offline kasakka

  • Posts: 107
Re: WhiteFox Keyboard
« Reply #20 on: Wed, 03 August 2016, 00:49:30 »
I went the other way and canceled. While I have nothing against the Whitefox, I just felt it didn't necessarily add anything to what I already have a (a Pok3r and a 60% custom). I'm thinking a split keyboard might be my next one.

Offline OfTheWild

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Re: WhiteFox Keyboard
« Reply #21 on: Wed, 03 August 2016, 17:00:29 »
I mean, once you open the conversation to 65%, why not consider 75%? Or a TKL? I find that unless you are using a mech board with something intrinsically small like an iPad (or maybe a laptop), there are no compelling reasons to discard keys just to save space.

to piggy back on that... I actually prefer to use my leopold fc660c with both my HP laptop and Macbook Air over the HHKB simply because it is the correct width to sit on top of the keyboards. 60% is a little too small. If i was particular, i'd make a case that had a wide bottom.
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Offline warensemble

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Re: WhiteFox Keyboard
« Reply #22 on: Thu, 04 August 2016, 09:37:14 »
I made the jump with the TrueFox layout. I am having some second thoughts about that layout. I am a little worried about how akward that backspace key will be. Can anyone comment on that while I still have the ability to change? Is it somewhat easy to get used to? What about moving between that and a different keyboard with the backspace in the "normal" position? Any regrets not getting the Aria layout?

Thanks guys for all the helpful insight!

Offline exime

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Re: WhiteFox Keyboard
« Reply #23 on: Thu, 04 August 2016, 13:34:35 »
It should be an easy decision based on your needs.  Poker is missing some, for me, very important keys.  Do you need arrows? or Page up/down/home/end or print screen?   If not, than Pok3er would be great.

I would jump on the new Pok3r RGB in a heart beat if it was a 75% or TKL but 60% for me is just way too minimal. 

Can you bind certain keys to be used as arrows?  Sure, but that's just not how I want my keyboard.

Offline kasakka

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Re: WhiteFox Keyboard
« Reply #24 on: Thu, 04 August 2016, 13:40:31 »
It should be an easy decision based on your needs.  Poker is missing some, for me, very important keys.  Do you need arrows? or Page up/down/home/end or print screen?   If not, than Pok3er would be great.

I would jump on the new Pok3r RGB in a heart beat if it was a 75% or TKL but 60% for me is just way too minimal. 

Can you bind certain keys to be used as arrows?  Sure, but that's just not how I want my keyboard.

The Pok3r is missing none of those things. By default arrows are mapped to FN+IJKL and around them are the page up/down, home and end keys. Print screen is on the FN layer as well. Another way to get arrows is to use the Win+Alt+Spacebar toggle, which makes the right bottom corner Shift, Ctrl, Fn and Pn keys into arrow keys. I love that setup and use it on my custom 60% permanently.

Offline kasakka

  • Posts: 107
Re: WhiteFox Keyboard
« Reply #25 on: Thu, 04 August 2016, 13:44:40 »
I made the jump with the TrueFox layout. I am having some second thoughts about that layout. I am a little worried about how akward that backspace key will be. Can anyone comment on that while I still have the ability to change? Is it somewhat easy to get used to? What about moving between that and a different keyboard with the backspace in the "normal" position? Any regrets not getting the Aria layout?

I use the "1 row down" Backspace on my custom keyboard and it works fine but I did have some initial issues when using my Pok3r at work which has the Backspace in the normal position. I've gotten used to it so it's no longer an issue though. What I did notice, however, is that the two extra 1u keys above the Backspace on my custom are not that comfortable to reach. That normal 1.5u "\" key is pretty ridiculous considering how little it is used. I'd say the big ISO Enter with regular Backspace location is my real favorite.

Offline exime

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Re: WhiteFox Keyboard
« Reply #26 on: Thu, 04 August 2016, 15:22:44 »
It should be an easy decision based on your needs.  Poker is missing some, for me, very important keys.  Do you need arrows? or Page up/down/home/end or print screen?   If not, than Pok3er would be great.

I would jump on the new Pok3r RGB in a heart beat if it was a 75% or TKL but 60% for me is just way too minimal. 

Can you bind certain keys to be used as arrows?  Sure, but that's just not how I want my keyboard.

The Pok3r is missing none of those things. By default arrows are mapped to FN+IJKL and around them are the page up/down, home and end keys. Print screen is on the FN layer as well. Another way to get arrows is to use the Win+Alt+Spacebar toggle, which makes the right bottom corner Shift, Ctrl, Fn and Pn keys into arrow keys. I love that setup and use it on my custom 60% permanently.

Thanks for the tip.  I really awnt to get that Pok3r RGB.

Offline Booper

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Re: WhiteFox Keyboard
« Reply #27 on: Thu, 04 August 2016, 15:52:49 »
As others have said, a small right shift will be easier to deal with than a function row! FWIW I personally can't get used to a wonky backspace so I didn't get the true fox layout.

Also, whitefox is super sexy. So there's that...

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Offline OfTheWild

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Re: WhiteFox Keyboard
« Reply #28 on: Thu, 04 August 2016, 16:42:33 »
I made the jump with the TrueFox layout. I am having some second thoughts about that layout. I am a little worried about how akward that backspace key will be. Can anyone comment on that while I still have the ability to change? Is it somewhat easy to get used to? What about moving between that and a different keyboard with the backspace in the "normal" position? Any regrets not getting the Aria layout?

Thanks guys for all the helpful insight!

I'll chip in my 2cents - you mean the backspace being one row down on the "true fox" layout? HHKB Is like that too and I will admit that I blob a few \'s at the end of a mistake before realizing i'm not hitting the backspace. However that is because in the course of a day I use 3 different keyboards throughout the day and I simply havent settled on that hhkb layout (yet). I will say however I am starting to love the capslock/control swap on the hhkb/ibm type-f/true fox.
« Last Edit: Thu, 04 August 2016, 16:46:59 by boostdemon »
-Dana

Offline warensemble

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Re: WhiteFox Keyboard
« Reply #29 on: Fri, 05 August 2016, 10:00:45 »
After giving it some though I have decided to settle on the Aria layout. I already have other keyboard with the standard backspace position and don't really care to switch back and forth. ex: get used to whitefox trufox over the weekend, then go to work and start hitting the \\ again. It just doesn't make sense.

Thanks to everyone who contributed to this discussion and offered advice.  :thumb:
I look forward to assembling the keyboard with Zealios.